Shmups suck according to mainstream reviewers

[spadgy]

My job entails spending a great deal of time with mainstream games journalists, and while one or two in the UK are genuine shmup-heads, the sad fact is many, for all their enthusiasm for 'games as art' and 'new games journalism', still tend to get dazzled by hype just like your average gamer, and wowed by flashy modern offerings. Blinded by the lights sadly.

However, a sadder fact is that after a blip of hope, since the dawn of the internet most mags and websites are still read by youngsters, despite the growing trend of older gamers, so to an extent, games journalists are doing their job, and giving their target audience what they want - bad puns, exagerrated enthusiasm for 'Generic 3D Military Shooter X', and big pictures of buxom female characters. Furthermore, the games mags aimed at a wider, more serious/'adult' audience, are still having to please the masses, who between them can't really see beyond exactly the same games the kids are getting frenzied about, and again a mag or website needs to make money by pleasing their audience.

I OBVIOUSLY THINK AS AN EXCUSE THAT IS A CROCK OF SHIT! Really mags should be promoting some niche/unconventional gaming, and more importantly high-quality gaming, but sadly the people who actually fund mags aren't always gamers, and they can hold editorial sway.

But, rest assured certain mainstream games journalists strive to mention 2D shooters wherever they can, and will always attempt to get new ones with a PAL release reviewed in a certain UK national paper.

EDIT: As I read the first three paragraphs, it sounds a lot like an arguement for just sticking with small press, forums, and non-commercial websites for you gaming needs. Shame though, as I'd love the masses to get in on shumps. Or would I?

[DEL]

spadgy wrote;

Shame though, as I'd love the masses to get in on shumps. Or would I?

That's the most interesting point of all - would you actually gain something from that?
The only reason why I would need a rise in popularity in 2D shoot'em ups would be to ensure their survival, to ensure that new ones keep being made.

[Udderdude]

spadgy wrote;

Shame though, as I'd love the masses to get in on shumps. Or would I?

That's the most interesting point of all - would you actually gain something from that?
The only reason why I would need a rise in popularity in 2D shoot'em ups would be to ensure their survival, to ensure that new ones keep being made.

If they got popular again, you can bet they would play much more like euroshmups, or at least way easier with lifebars and hardly anything resembling difficulty. You'd end up with a seperation of mainstream shmups, and hardcore shmups. :/

[PROMETHEUS]

Fair point, I might come off sounding kind of preachy and douche-baggy. But I just do not understand how you could have much fun with shmups unless you played them with the intent of 1CCing, even if you never get there. Otherwise, you'd just credit-feed through it a few times and say "well, that was quick. guess I'm done with this game now."

I think they can still be enjoyable like that. I was drawn to STGs by games like Blazing Star and Pulstar and I used to play them only because I liked the atmosphere and music, so I naturally credit feeded to the end every time. It was only when I discovered Dodonpachi that I realized the depth and point of playing differently, for survival at first and then score. I still think many STGs aren't that interesting to play "for 1CC" or something else so yeah, why not enjoy them by credit feeding, as limited as it may be.

[PROMETHEUS]

spadgy wrote;

Shame though, as I'd love the masses to get in on shumps. Or would I?

That's the most interesting point of all - would you actually gain something from that?
The only reason why I would need a rise in popularity in 2D shoot'em ups would be to ensure their survival, to ensure that new ones keep being made.

I do think we'd benefit a lot from more popularity, much more people playing means you'd have a lot more IRL friends at least slightly interested in what you're doing with those games and more recognition for your achievements in general, tougher competition = higher motivation, more (good?) games and growth, arcade centers everywhere in the world instead of just asia...

[DEL]

PROMETHEUS wrote;

I do think we'd benefit a lot from more popularity, much more people playing means you'd have a lot more IRL friends at least slightly interested in what you're doing with those games and more recognition for your achievements in general, tougher competition = higher motivation, more (good?) games and growth, arcade centers everywhere in the world instead of just asia...

^True, but the Western 3D game companies would and are blocking this from happening .

[rib]

put it that way, most of our "first class world" is ruled by media, the united states where just the first placed it evolved.

God damn it, no wonder why I don't see Shmups any more. Americans today are so god damned close minded and have an intellect fueled by media.

A lot of the reviews that make up Metacritic scores and review text excerpts come from European reviewers too, you know. At least one of the excerpts I quoted was clearly European in origin.

I mean, I agree with you for a lot of Americans, but please don't generalize like that. I'm American too and not all of us are dumbasses.

[burnsro]

I like to think of Japanese shmup games as the digital equivalent of auto-erotic asphyxiation. An innocent bystander stumbling into your bedroom only to catch you with a scarf tied around your neck, naked from the waist down will have the same reaction as someone stumbling into your bedroom only to find you playing Triggerheart Exelica: equal parts revulsion and morbid fascination.

Each shmup prides itself on being ridiculously difficult and fast, screen filled with bullets and music pumping loudly. It's enough to give any sane gamer a seizure. But this genre thrives, fueled by the frothing demand of crazy people all over the world.

Triggerheart's main failing is the length of it's story mode. It's short. It literally took me about 20 minutes to play the game to completion.

...I didn't have the patience to pay attention to the incredibly generic and melodramatic plotline.

You don't play shmups for the story, though.

Score: 3/5 A fun but short shoot-em-up with a generic plot and okay graphics.

[Frederik]

Here's the deal guys: shmups are a niche genre. They appeal a certain kind of gamer. Mainstream gamers and those who review games for their benefit generally are not that kind of gamer.

The thing is that when game reviewers say that sadly a shmup can be beaten within half an hour they´re showing that they have no idea how these games are supposed to be played in the first place. Saying such a thing has nothing to do with personal taste - it´s incompetence, pure and simple. Even if you as a reviewer don´t like a certain genre, you should at least have basic knowledge about how certain types of game genres work.

Those people are ignorant to the history of videogames; maybe that´s a problem of our entertainment form being still relatively young - no wonder many attitudes (old=obsolete being one of them) stem from an infantile mindset.

Maybe if they at least admit that they don´t feel like playing a game over and over again or that they think these games are out of date, fine. But treating shmups as a "play-through-once" type of game is comparing apples to oranges and not professional at all.

[RHE]

But treating shmups as a "play-through-once" type of game is comparing apples to oranges and not professional at all.

Your'e right but where does a shmup says to an uninformed player, that it's not a 'play-through-once' type of game? I mean how does it show to someone who has no idea about these games. Personally, I guess it's the shmups fault that mainstream gamers/reviewers don't get them as they're supposed to be played since the mentioned reason. Puzzle games for example would share the same destiny as shmups if they had less then 100 levels but luckily you don't have to restart the game by yourself to improve on it.

Reviewers should'nt take that as an excuse to talk bad about the genre though.

[Shatterhand]

developers should remove free-play from shmups, and make level progression olny possible if you reach a certain score.

Or even better, have UNLOCKABLES for good scores. Unlock BIG HEAD MODE when you reach 1 billion points. Unlock NO-CLOTHES MODE when you reach 2 billion.

Instant sucess!

Of course then they will complain the game is too hard or something.

[FIL]

I like to think of Japanese shmup games as the digital equivalent of auto-erotic asphyxiation. An innocent bystander stumbling into your bedroom only to catch you with a scarf tied around your neck, naked from the waist down will have the same reaction as someone stumbling into your bedroom only to find you playing Triggerheart Exelica: equal parts revulsion and morbid fascination.

Am I the only person here who does both those things at the same time?

[kengou]

The thing which says to average gamers "Play through a shmup in 30 minutes" is the part of the shmup that says:

Continue? 9...8...7...

Remove that, and you remove most of the problem. All the cries of "too short!" will be replaced by "too hard!" but at least then everyone will be forced to play the right way.

In an arcade, where the games make money for each credit, continuing makes sense. When shmups get ported to a console, though, continues should be removed completely. As I see it, that's one important solution.

In any shmup with an option screen, that says "continues on/off" I turn them off. And it makes the game that much better in the long run because I won't truly beat a game, or see the ending, until I get to the end without continuing.

[320x240]

I like to think of Japanese shmup games as the digital equivalent of auto-erotic asphyxiation. An innocent bystander stumbling into your bedroom only to catch you with a scarf tied around your neck, naked from the waist down will have the same reaction as someone stumbling into your bedroom only to find you playing Triggerheart Exelica: equal parts revulsion and morbid fascination.

Am I the only person here who does both those things at the same time?

Of course not. Most Japanese shmups are designed to be played this way. There's also much to be said about the proper use of pillows when playing shmups but that is something I fear mainstream reviewers will never understand.

[lgb]

In any shmup with an option screen, that says "continues on/off" I turn them off. And it makes the game that much better in the long run because I won't truly beat a game, or see the ending, until I get to the end without continuing.

Hehe, you stole that from me. Or did I steal that from you...

Either way, some doujin games don't have continues at all. Especially the ones that don't play like "standard shooters" (Kenta Cho's stuff, nomltest, Warning Forever, games like that).

Also, Touhou games will not allow you to access the final stage if you continue. I'm not sure exactly when this started, or whether it applies to PoDD or PoFV.

Of course, these aren't arcade games, so it's not a big surprise.

[spadgy]

I absolutely agree that not knowing enough about a genre is incompetence. If you’re paid to write about games, other than your opinion, you’re paid for your expertise. I’ve regularly turned down certain reviews of really niche games, as I’m not qualified, and I feel the responsibility of the fact a reader might be deciding about spending a fair bit of their hard earned cash based on your review.

Another part of the issue is (and this effect all types of journalism) that being controversial, blunt, opinionated and harsh is usually a good way to succeed in journalism, as it makes your work stand out and gets a reaction/attention. Sadly those qualities often outrank honesty, knowledge and care.

And there’s the fact that people with those opinionated character traits already within themselves have a tendency to like to tell people what they think – thus meaning they often choose journalism!

[t0yrobo]

The thing which says to average gamers "Play through a shmup in 30 minutes" is the part of the shmup that says:

Continue? 9...8...7...

Remove that, and you remove most of the problem. All the cries of "too short!" will be replaced by "too hard!" but at least then everyone will be forced to play the right way.

There's a solution for that, at least for the games on xbla and the like, tie continues to your account so it actually costs you $.25 for each continue. Then it'll not only be too hard, but too expensive also!

[Frederik]

The credit-unlocking system in Ikaruga seems to have done that job perfectly - people didn´t moan about it being too short, at least.

The problem in that, however, is that people aren´t encouraged to actually get better at the game, but just play it long enough to get Free Play unlocked.

[lgb]

Which takes about 10 hours. If people are that desperate... That really sounds like close-mindedness towards the true length of the game to me.

Did that carry over to the X-box version by any chance?

[Frederik]

developers should remove free-play from shmups, and make level progression olny possible if you reach a certain score.
Or even better, have UNLOCKABLES for good scores. Unlock BIG HEAD MODE when you reach 1 billion points. Unlock NO-CLOTHES MODE when you reach 2 billion.
Instant sucess!
Of course then they will complain the game is too hard or something.

Yeah, people these days want rewards for playing a game. That´s like saying "If you beat me at chess, I´ll give you these delicious tacos!" And after that, what would be the point of playing chess again if you already unlocked the tacos?

Many games need these rewards because otherwise they would show how utterly hollow they really are. If you strip all the levelling and epic gear from WoW, would ANYBODY play it? No, because killing mutant spiders for twenty hours is repetetive and dull. It´s embarassing games like this are called "role-playing". Now when people are paying powerlevel-services to play a game for them that they pay a monthly fee for, isn´t this brain-crampingly absurd?

I play shmups for the pure joy of dodging stuff. Recently I rediscovered what drew me into the genre in the first place - surviving purple rain. If I am tired of it I just stop. It´s both thrilling and relaxing, and feeling how my abilities increase is very satisfying. I don´t need any other reason to play these game.

[Hardstepah]

God damn it, no wonder why I don't see Shmups any more. Americans today are so god damned close minded and have an intellect fueled by media.

A lot of the reviews that make up Metacritic scores and review text excerpts come from European reviewers too, you know. At least one of the excerpts I quoted was clearly European in origin.

I mean, I agree with you for a lot of Americans, but please don't generalize like that. I'm American too and not all of us are dumbasses.

:::RANT POWER ON:::

don't listen to him. YES MOST OF US AMERICANS ARE DUMBASSES! unless TV or gameing magazines say its good, it won't get purchased. Unless gamepro, EGM, or game informer writes a 30 page article on the game (metal gear solid 4, halo 3, gears of war 2 and MADDEN god i hate madden games) we will not even look at it. i hate when i go to work and people say "hey are you a gamer?" when i say yes they ask me how games like army of two and battlefield are. i just tell them, you shoot alot of shit. and that is the selling point.

games that take no skill in america is what sells, games like halo and half life. thats what america wants, something they can say they beat and nothing more. if it's too hard nobody will play it or it will get ridiculed. how many game magazine reviewers fell into that job looking for another type of journalism or have even gamed back in the days of nes-n64 eras? not many. it's all just who has the most money to pay gamestores, mags, and tv spots to push their product. i hate talking "gamers" here in the states, it's like a nuclear physicist teaching pre-school.


there is hope, when i worked at a game store, i sold many shmups that came through, and the people would come back saying it was the funnest game they have in their collection or they play that more than anything and would come back and buy more. these were people who i had to convince to buy these games because they "never heard of it". in the states it all comes down to who has the cash, as does everything else here.


:::RANT POWER OFF:::

[PainAmplifier]

Ikaruga: 81, 85, 88 (DC, GC, 360 respectively)

LOL, the game keeps getting better as more people are told they're supposed to like it. Meanwhile every other game in the genre gets worse!

The worst of it is R-Type Final being rated so high, though.

R-Type Final too high? The blog showed it to have a 79 score from what I read. I think that is a reasonable score overall, even if I'd rate it slightly higher personally.

I do sympathize with the feeling that people put a bit too much faith in reviews though. I've had some recent conversations with a friend about games we've talked to each other about and played/not played, and it's interesting to see how our personal feelings about games (and other media) have an effect on what we do based on hearing the other person's experience.

Overall I think it's the casual gamers (not just fans of a genre) that give more credit to 'professional review(ers)' and it's the 'group mentality' that tends to take over once a certain % of the easier to influence among that group pick up a trend. (Trolls, attention seekers or just the catchall cliche 'stupid 13yo online'.)

The bad part about this, is the business people in all stages of the distribution, advertising and selling chain that brings games to the 'masses' (at least in the US) are wholly stuck up on the current business paradigm of selling to the majority. (Since they have more in common with the trolls than the actual game players...) And thus everything tends to be homogenized bland crap and niche genres or brands get marginalized.

And that is what creates a type of 'vicious circle' that not only keeps disparaging non-mainstream games, but also feeds the perception that if you aren't already a fan you shouldn't bother checking them out.. Which in turn creates a self-fullfilling trend of low sales and low numbers of people trying or looking for those game genre's as well.

[Udderdude]

There's a solution for that, at least for the games on xbla and the like, tie continues to your account so it actually costs you $.25 for each continue. Then it'll not only be too hard, but too expensive also!

Haha .. awesome.

[neorichieb1971]

For your information. Some games on PSN like Super Stardust and some games on Live are actually built around the concept of scoring high. They come with $10 price tags though, not $70.

All the games that are getting slated are getting slated because of their apparent cost against games in the same price range.

Lets imagine Gears of War 2 comes out the same day as ESP Galuda 2 on console. They cost the same amount of money, which one would you expect people to buy? Would they need a review to tell them which they were going to buy? Would a review sway someone from buying ESP Galuda 2 when they originally were going to buy Gears of War 2? I think no on every account, which makes the review obsolete.

[MX7]

I like to think of Japanese shmup games as the digital equivalent of auto-erotic asphyxiation. An innocent bystander stumbling into your bedroom only to catch you with a scarf tied around your neck, naked from the waist down will have the same reaction as someone stumbling into your bedroom only to find you playing Triggerheart Exelica: equal parts revulsion and morbid fascination.

I don't think I'm alone in the belief that this is partly true. I got into modern shooting games through looking at screenshots of Mushihimesama a few years back. I remember thinking that it looked beautiful, and also impossible. Thus my first attraction to modern shmups was pure mascocism. Nothing to be ashamed of. The amount of bullets on screen is sure to be a turn off for some people, but alluring to others. It's something that Cave in particular realise. The promotional DVD for DOJ proudly boasts "IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO FINISH", and goes on to gloat about play tresters were visibly distressed by the game. It's almost like the marketing for a 1970's horror movie

In fact, I think it is this concept of 'impossiblity' that could sell something like Mushihimesama say to a western audience. Imagine a page advert in a magazine like Edge or GamesTM, with masses of pink bullets and huge proclamations about the difficulty of the game. Such a thing would be particularly outre in this time of vanila print adverts for Nintendogs games.

I know someone will undoubtably retort that 'people don't want to play hard, 2D games anymore', but i'd like to know who these 'people' are, and how come you seem to know them so well? If Nintendo have shown us anything, it's that if there's no gap in a market, then make one!

[kengou]

For your information. Some games on PSN like Super Stardust and some games on Live are actually built around the concept of scoring high. They come with $10 price tags though, not $70.

All the games that are getting slated are getting slated because of their apparent cost against games in the same price range.

Geometry Wars is a $10 game, that's why. It's pretty simplistic. The reason that reviewers seem to love GeoWars but hate other shmups, despite the fact that both are difficult and score-based, is that GeoWars is basically a neverending scorefest. Other shmups have "only" 5 levels, even if the scoring system and gameplay is a thousand times better. Reviewers only care about "more content."

Think about how much care and design research and testing and SKILL went into the development of Cave's games, or Treasure's games, or any other really good shmup that we all love here? Then think about what went into GeoWars, which is the design of a few types of randomly spawning clouds of enemies, cycling over and over and growing more dense over time?

That's the difference between a $10 shmup and a $50 shmup.

[burnsro]

I like to think of Japanese shmup games as the digital equivalent of auto-erotic asphyxiation. An innocent bystander stumbling into your bedroom only to catch you with a scarf tied around your neck, naked from the waist down will have the same reaction as someone stumbling into your bedroom only to find you playing Triggerheart Exelica: equal parts revulsion and morbid fascination.

I don't think I'm alone in the belief that this is partly true. I got into modern shooting games through looking at screenshots of Mushihimesama a few years back. I remember thinking that it looked beautiful, and also impossible. Thus my first attraction to modern shmups was pure masochism. Nothing to be ashamed of. The amount of bullets on screen is sure to be a turn off for some people, but alluring to others. It's something that Cave in particular realize. The promotional DVD for DOJ proudly boasts "IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO FINISH", and goes on to gloat about play testers were visibly distressed by the game. It's almost like the marketing for a 1970's horror movie

In fact, I think it is this concept of 'impossibility' that could sell something like Mushihimesama say to a western audience. Imagine a page advert in a magazine like Edge or GamesTM, with masses of pink bullets and huge proclamations about the difficulty of the game. Such a thing would be particularly outre in this time of vanilla print adverts for Nintendogs games.

I know someone will undoubtedly retort that 'people don't want to play hard, 2D games anymore', but I'd like to know who these 'people' are, and how come you seem to know them so well? If Nintendo have shown us anything, it's that if there's no gap in a market, then make one!

I think that masochism in terms of video games are ones that don't challenge the player. I grew up on challenging NES games so I want to play games that are hard or else it seems like I'm doing more work then play with all of the menial, simple tasks that some games give us.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I'd just like to show another opinion.

[Dave_K.]

I am quickly becoming fans of kengou & FrederikJurk due to this thread. You guys are on the mark.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

The Raiden III one makes me laugh the most.

The reviewers OBVIOUSLY haven't seen II or I before if they would call III 80s old fashioned.

If you grew up in the 1980's and into the 1990's, the local arcades would have Raiden or Raiden II upright cabinets or even both at the same time.

Raiden II was an instant arcade shmup classic upon it's initial release worldwide. Having played it at my local (now defunct) arcade hangout back in March of 1994, Raiden II was really a special arcade shmup title that improved upon it's predecessor in all areas of gameplay, innovation, pacing, etc. And it was designed with eating yen, quarters, tokens, etc. by the mouthful if you wanted to see what happened on the next stage -- you credit fed til the end (or ran out of credits -- whichever came first).

For the USA arcade market, Fabtek would have to be given proper credit for distributing the first Raiden PCB back in 1990, thus setting up the stage for Raiden II PCB on down the road. Without it, developer Seibu Kaihatsu would not have been as well known and respected.

Such battery backed-up Raiden II PCBs were common in arcades across the USA into the mid 1990's (until they eventually died and the end result, no more saving of high scores upon powering down for the night). ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[al138]

What about this idea?

The international gaming community has become so diverse that regional mainstream acceptance or endorsement of a genre is no longer necessary for its survival.

Shmups have been reborn in a sense thanks to new business models that can price postulate these titles to a range ($10-$30) that is readily accessable to most gamers. Honestly, I could care less about maintream media coverage or reviews of shmups for the simple fact that their tacit endorsement hasn't been necessary for the survival of the genre. Services such as XBL, PSN, and VC have the potential to keep the genre viable regardless of the mainstream gaming media.

Sure quality shmups don't come out as often as I wish, but they nevertheless still see release. Regardless of your location (America or Europe), if we keep supporting the releases, we can be assured that future titles will be in the offing.

Casual gamers may place a great deal of stock in game reviews. So be it, for it has little bering on us.

Let's face it: If you are a true shmup fan, are you any longer in the realm of the casual gamer?

Let them talk. It changes little.