So why all the Touhou Hate?

[Twiddle]

Anyway, your comment about a "Not enough bullets" complaint is ridiculous, since Touhou has fucking assloads of them.

I meant older games. Touhou has quite a ton of bullets, it's just "their too slow, I want my Raiden Fighters, waaaaaah"

Hrm, I wonder why I enjoyed a few hours of EOSD and a couple dozen hours of PCB but hated IN and MOF then. Hrm...

Sidestepping arguments and then taking pot shots isn't going to work here, it just makes you look more like an ass than me.

[shoe-sama]

You're supposed to graze or otherwise milk most of the patterns.

like in RF2?
lol too minor a point source unless you want the WR

[moozooh]

lol too minor a point source unless you want the WR

Wrong.

EoSD per-stage bonus: ((stage# * 1000 + power * 100 + graze * 10) * point items collected) * difficulty. You can graze up to several thousands per stage.

PCB grazing during supernatural border: (80 * bullets grazed unfocused) + (30 * bullets grazed focused) bonus to cherry max counter. Main scoring element, actually. Get 500 graze points unfocused buring a border, and every new point item will give 40k more points. If there are 800 items left to pick up in the game, that's potentially +32 millions to your score. And that's from one border (you're expected to get no less than ~30 during the main game).

Also, certain spellcards can go from like 5 millions to over 15 (and up to 80) millions if you powergraze them. 6-7 of such important spellcards amount to the sum roughly equal to the endgame bonus, fyi.

IN: powergrazing certain spellcards nets several thousands of time orbs. Several tens of thousands in some cases. Time orbs are a key element of scoring. Though to be fair, grazing in IN is much less emphasized than in EoSD and PCB, aside from the extra stage.

[Ed Oscuro]

touhou is great because of all the lolipr0nz

[Twiddle]

touhou is great because of all the lolipr0nz

At least this guy is honest about being a non-technical Touhou fan.

[shoe-sama]

TOUHOU LOTS OF BULLETS EASY TO DODGE JUST MOVE YOUR SHIP LOL
ITS LIKE MUSHIHIMISHIMISHAMI ON ARRANGE MODE

I LOOK AT IT AND IT MAKES MY EYES BLEED WTF IS WITH ALL THESE SLOW BULLETS
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE DODGING I THOUGHT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DODGE BULLETS IN SHMUPS

TOUHOU SUCKS AND TO PROVE IT I WILL SMASH ALL YOUR SCORES WHILE BLINDFOLDED AND LAUGH AT ALL OF YOU LOL

[Udderdude]

TOUHOU LOTS OF BULLETS EASY TO DODGE JUST MOVE YOUR SHIP LOL
ITS LIKE MUSHIHIMISHIMISHAMI ON ARRANGE MODE

I LOOK AT IT AND IT MAKES MY EYES BLEED WTF IS WITH ALL THESE SLOW BULLETS
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE DODGING I THOUGHT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DODGE BULLETS IN SHMUPS

TOUHOU SUCKS AND TO PROVE IT I WILL SMASH ALL YOUR SCORES WHILE BLINDFOLDED AND LAUGH AT ALL OF YOU LOL

Now that's the Shoe we all remember.

[Zebra Airforce]

Raiden Fighters kicks ass.

[orange]

itt games with no personality where you maneuver through a maze and 99% of enemies don't aim at you

cave is to touhou as quakeworld is to halo

[moozooh]

Well, since shoe is very enthusiastic (…right) about it, here is a list of approximate world-class (not WR!) scores I have extrapolated from my knowledge of Touhou scoring systems and known western and Japanese high scores.

EoSD
Easy: ~115 million (WR: 157M)
Normal: ~200 million (WR: 307M)
Hard: ~225 million (WR: 423M)
Lunatic: ~250 million (WR: 521M)
Extra: ~380 million (WR: 634M)

PCB
Easy: ~1.2 billion (WR: 1.86B)
Normal: ~1.4 billion (WR: 2.14B)
Hard: ~1.55 billion (WR: 2.72B)
Lunatic: ~1.6 billion (WR: 3B)
Extra: ~1.05 billion (WR: 1.38B)
Phantasm: ~1.2 billion (WR: 1.6B)

IN
Easy: ~2.5 billion (WR: 3.11B)
Normal: ~2.9 billion (WR: 4.26B)
Hard: ~3.15 billion (WR: 5B)
Lunatic: ~3.4 billion (WR: 6.08B)
Extra: ~2.1 billion (WR: 3.07B)

MoF
Easy: ~1.3 billion (WR: 1.56B)
Normal: ~1.3 billion (WR: 1.68B)
Hard: ~1.4 billion (WR: 2.04B)
Lunatic: ~1.4 billion (WR: 2.17B)
Extra: ~920 million (WR: 1B)

SA
Easy: ~500 million (WR: 692M)
Normal: ~630 million (WR: 1.13B)
Hard: ~1 billion (WR: 1.96B)
Lunatic: ~1.8 billion (WR: 4.15B)
Extra: ~930 million (WR: 1.1B)

These references ensure that you won't be able to get the needed result in an easy way, like by luck, extreme survival for endgame bonuses, or simply copying Japanese strategies. So beat any of them, and you can consider your point proven!

[jonny5]

EDIT: dont post when you are drunk or high or both.....

i will shut up now and try and remember how to express my thoughts....lolz

i dont know what i was talking about....it didnt even make sese to me reading it....and im still drunk/high....lolz

just ignore me

ps.....zun still needs some new ideas.....

[moozooh]

this is my main problem with touhou games....the scoring system is so ridiculously complex and unforgiving i dont find it fun at all to play for score.....and due to the extreme slowness of the patterns it gets old fast just playing for survival.....

Lol.

I don't think you actually understand their scoring systems, hence the "ridiculously complex and unforgiving" syndrome. All of them are more forgiving than cutting a full-stage chain midways in DDP.

And aside from PCB, they are not complex at all (PCB is pretty much the only one where you need to plan your actions beforehead, there's some strategy involved), and can be summarised in one, at most two brief sentences.

and i know your response will be im just not good enough....but i just dont like having to keep complex scoring formulas in mind in order to score effectively......

No,.............................................................my response will be "understand the scoring system before claiming anything about it". Because I don't keep any formulas in my head when playing, and if you do, you're likely doing something wrong.

As in, you don't really need to memorize formulas for endgame bonuses, or any stuff like that, to receive them. You basically need only to remember your priorities in in-game actions to have a decent score. To give you an example of a game where you need to memorize a LOT of stuff to score well, try Armed Police Batrider. Hell, no-one knows how to score over 20 millions, yet the WR is bordering on 30. Now that's overly complex.

[shoe-sama]

lol graze shit vacuum items and shoot things

onoz complex

also your benchmarks seem a little low, i believe i have 1B in PCB hard from when I still sucked at shmups

[Etrian]

I like how there's, like, ONE guy in this thread defending ZUN's fan-made games with pseudo-scoring systems already seen in previous shmups.

I've played touhou for quite some time, I do understand the scoring systems, and ones like Imperishable Night ARE complex.

OriginalityGET

[shoe-sama]

IN is the opposite of complex

in all touhou games you shoot and collect items to make some meter fluctuate

for IN it's the same, except that the time item happens to be autocollected

So you just cancel at the right time and shift your meter to slowmode right before bosses.
And for bosses you have to stay in slowmomde for a second so that time items collected do not shift your meter. Many noobs just leave slowmode right away and try to collect the point icons.

That's pretty easy to do and takes little effort, thus isn't complex. The tasks are simple and very general, as in you don't have to memorize specific strategies to score in section X.

[Hulkcore]

I think Shoot the Bullet is brilliant. But I haven't liked much of the other ones.

I don't like the ratio of level:boss fight. I'm fine with longer boss fights but only if it takes more than 40 seconds to get through the level before hand.

The setting/theme has never appealed to me, I would rather blow up nifty looking military shit than shoot at stupid girls.

[moozooh]

also your benchmarks seem a little low, i believe i have 1B in PCB hard from when I still sucked at shmups

Well, that makes your job easier, doesn't it? ;)
Though if you want to raise the bar for yourself, I'm not against that.

I like how there's, like, ONE guy in this thread defending ZUN's fan-made games with pseudo-scoring systems already seen in previous shmups.

What happens if I ask you to name any of the "previous shmups"? (And I do.)

I've played touhou for quite some time, I do understand the scoring systems, and ones like Imperishable Night ARE complex.

"Collect as much time orbs as possible, then pick up items at the top of the screen" is complex to you? Lol, ok, that tells much.

Problem is, the level of arrogance coming from you and many other visitors of anti-Touhou threads makes any civilized discussion near-impossible. Because I, as an "expert" (or rather, researcher) in the actual scoring systems of Touhou games, have both the actual data to support my claims with the evidence in form of replays, and a few decent personal scores (which are all available in the respective hiscore threads) limited solely by my playing abilities, and not the lack of knowledge. People who come here to bash the games usually have neither, and proceed with posting nonsensical comments or just random insults. That's pretty fabulous.

Also funny that the actual Japanese don't have any of such prejudices against the games, hence why you can see players mentioned on the first page competing in them for years. They would know better, eh.

[Twiddle]

short ver: more touhou fans need to be like moozooh and less like LGB

Also funny that the actual Japanese don't have any of such prejudices against the games, hence why you can see players mentioned on the first page competing in them for years. They would know better, eh.

And there are the weird guys who score 11 million on Viper Phase 1 on the old revision.

Just saying.

[Etrian]

What happens if I ask you to name any of the "previous shmups"? (And I do.)

Then you'd get me saying things like "grazing isn't original and was done in shmups in the 90's" and "the MoF bombing-for-score concept is a direct rip out of Raizing's soul".

"Collect as much time orbs as possible, then pick up items at the top of the screen" is complex to you? Lol, ok, that tells much.

You collect more orbs from fairies' familiars from being focused, and you get more points if you collect them when unfocused. The points of the time orbs differentiate depending on where the -/+ meter is, and if it's human, you get more points.

Being focused for familiars, orb switching, item barrier collecting (within fairies, ie. start of Stage 5 IN), spell card capturing, the "border" circle around enemies in spell cards which give time orbs if you're inside it when the character's spell card breaks.. not to mention death bombing.. this isn't complicated to you?

I beat Imperishable Night on Lunatic.. it's a good game, but saying that the scoring system isn't complex is just plain stupid. It has possibly the most complex scoring system out of the entire series. At least with EoSD, you had grazing and that was it.

[moozooh]

Then you'd get me saying things like "grazing isn't original and was done in shmups in the 90's" and "the MoF bombing-for-score concept is a direct rip out of Raizing's soul".

Shooting isn't original, it was done in 70's. Smart bombs were done in 80's. No shooters are original following your logic.

Also, I would still like you to provide me the names of shmups with scoring systems identical to, or at least closely resembling those of EoSD, PCB, IN, and StB. They have been done before, right? Which means you can name them… right?

You collect more orbs from fairies' familiars from being focused, and you get more points if you collect them when unfocused. The points of the time orbs differentiate depending on where the -/+ meter is, and if it's human, you get more points.

Nope. It's actually far simplier.

When you're playing as a human character, you gain time orbs for dealing damage. When you're playing as a youkai, you get time orbs for grazing boss attacks (x3 during spellcards).
Human characters deal damage to familiars. Youkai characters don't. Killing a master will make its familiars explode and cancel every bullet in explosion range into time orbs. Killing a familiar before its master will penalize you.

Thus,
1) you don't want to kill familiars before their masters;
2) you still can milk them for time orbs as a human and get more points overall that way.

It's more of a timing issue common to that of powergrazing, rather than a complication of the scoring system. The principle is logical and crystal clear, but the implementation requires skill. See AKST's Normal and Hard mode replays to see how it's done.

Otherwise what you're saying is roughly equal to complaining that Ikaruga's scoring system is too complex because the enemies don't always align themselves in groups of three. You have to memorize their positions, count killed enemies, make sure not to make unwanted kills, and do that all within very strict time frames! Arg, most complex scoring system evar!

Being focused for familiars, orb switching, item barrier collecting (within fairies, ie. start of Stage 5 IN), spell card capturing, the "border" circle around enemies in spell cards which give time orbs if you're inside it when the character's spell card breaks.. not to mention death bombing.. this isn't complicated to you?

Spellcard capturing is simply no-missing/no-bombing during certain boss attacks. Death bombing doesn't give any score benefits. And I have no idea what do you mean by "orb switching", "item barrier collecting", and "border circle around enemies in spellcards which give time orbs if you're inside it when the character's spell card breaks". You've clearly managed to make that sound complicated, yes, because it's actually some sort of nonsense.

I beat Imperishable Night on Lunatic.. it's a good game, but saying that the scoring system isn't complex is just plain stupid. It has possibly the most complex scoring system out of the entire series. At least with EoSD, you had grazing and that was it.

That wasn't it, at least because some attacks gave more points when bullet-canceled with bombs compared to just grazing through them.

Beating IN on Lunatic by itself isn't too much of an achievement because IN's Lunatic mode is the most forgiving of all Touhou games to date when played for survival. At the same time, it's incredibly difficult to exhaust its scoring potential, because of how much skill it takes (current WR is 5.76 billions, but the theoretical limit exceeds 6.5 billions).

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

When you're playing as a human character, you gain time orbs for dealing damage. When you're playing as a youkai, you get time orbs for grazing boss attacks (x3 during spellcards).
Human characters deal damage to familiars. Youkai characters don't. Killing a master will make its familiars explode and cancel every bullet in explosion range into time orbs. Killing a familiar before its master will penalize you.

How exactly does killing the familiar punish you anyway? Like if they shoot some out and they are going to fly offscreen anyway, does it matter if you kill them or not? Never was quite sure on that aspect of scoring.

[moozooh]

Killing them basically mean you lose a chance to explode them and receive more time orbs that way. Also, killing a familiar shifts your meter closer to zero (by 6% to 9% depending on the character) and freezes it for a second, which is something to consider when you're facing a group of tightly packed familiars (stage 2 boss, stage 5 midboss, etc.). Accidentally killing several of them in a row can set your meter back from 100% to like 60-70%, depriving you from a lot of potential time orbs and score points.

[P_HAT]

TOUHOU LOTS OF BULLETS EASY TO DODGE JUST MOVE YOUR SHIP LOL
ITS LIKE MUSHIHIMISHIMISHAMI ON ARRANGE MODE

I LOOK AT IT AND IT MAKES MY EYES BLEED WTF IS WITH ALL THESE SLOW BULLETS
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE DODGING I THOUGHT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DODGE BULLETS IN SHMUPS

TOUHOU SUCKS AND TO PROVE IT I WILL SMASH ALL YOUR SCORES WHILE BLINDFOLDED AND LAUGH AT ALL OF YOU LOL

Now that's the Shoe we all remember.

and love


I think Touhou are cool games, but really boring.

Also StB > IN > PCB > EoSD > MoF

I even think StB is really great game.

[Momijitsuki]

To be totally honest, it looks like some of you guys are bitching about some of the pettiest issues just because you want something to bitch about.

The main issue is: if you hate it, don't play it. It's that easy.

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

Killing them basically mean you lose a chance to explode them and receive more time orbs that way. Also, killing a familiar shifts your meter closer to zero (by 6% to 9% depending on the character) and freezes it for a second, which is something to consider when you're facing a group of tightly packed familiars (stage 2 boss, stage 5 midboss, etc.). Accidentally killing several of them in a row can set your meter back from 100% to like 60-70%, depriving you from a lot of potential time orbs and score points.

Right, but if a boss is throwing them offscreen anyway, and it's not going to drop your meter that low, is there any reason not to kill them?

[moozooh]

Right, but if a boss is throwing them offscreen anyway, and it's not going to drop your meter that low, is there any reason not to kill them?

Well, in that situation, of course it makes sense to kill them. The important thing is to leave as many familiars on screen as possible at the moment of dealing the finishing blow to a boss's attack phase. Even better if there are bullets near them at that moment.

[P_HAT]

To be totally honest, it looks like some of you guys are bitching about some of the pettiest issues just because you want something to bitch about.

The main issue is: if you hate it, don't play it. It's that easy.

DIE. Loli@porn lover!



Heheheheh

[Momijitsuki]

To be totally honest, it looks like some of you guys are bitching about some of the pettiest issues just because you want something to bitch about.

The main issue is: if you hate it, don't play it. It's that easy.

DIE. Loli@porn lover!



Heheheheh

And that's the best reply you have? That's pretty sad.

Seriously, I bet this discussion wouldn't exist if you took the lolis out and replaced them with ships, while making the bullets faster and monochromatic. You know, taking away the things that make the game a bit more interesting. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of pretty much any shmup I can get my hands on, but it's the design of the Touhou shmups that made me like them.

As for 'they're so easy, it's just dodging bullets that aren't even aimed at you'', why don't you put your money where your mouth is and get to the top of all the high score boards?

[Twiddle]

Seriously, I bet this discussion wouldn't exist if you took the lolis out

It's the people who focus entirely on this is what have embittered a few to the series. I like some of the games and I can see how the later ones can be enjoyed, even though they aren't quite my cup of tea. Most else what is being said that doesn't regard the annoying non-player majority of the fanbase is usually taste differences or, less frequently, argument for the sake of argument.

[honorless]

Momiji, I think you missed part of his post (despite quoting it)

Heheheheh

He was being facetious.

Though the discussion is valid, if pretty useless, so I bet it would have come up eventually. I mean, we've got a "Why I Hate Modern Gaming" thread going in the off-topic section. It's not a far jump to "Why Do People Hate Touhou" from that.

for special bonus lulz, someone needs to go make a "why i hate cave" thread now