Annual Top 10 of the Less Experienced - Discussion Thread

grovsnus · Post by **grovsnus** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:53 pm

I like this idea for a list. My limited frame of reference is actually welcome.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:24 am

iatneH wrote:Are you automating the tally somehow?

Still in the planning stages but yeah, i'll save time wherever i can. I'll probly just use text editor macros, but if that's not enough i might throw a little VB program together. But the latter would probly take more time than save anyway.

bsidwell · Post by **bsidwell** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:31 am

Team SDA likes terrible games.

grovsnus · Post by **grovsnus** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:44 am

So when will official results be posted?

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:37 pm

When the voting is closed, I guess?

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:15 pm

grovsnus wrote:So when will official results be posted?

Polls close February 29th 11:59:59 PM UTC! (Results expected promptly.)

I have endless free time, and there are a lot less voters than i expected, so i'd say roughly a day or two after polls close. But no promises, as they say, "it'll be ready when it's ready".

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:02 pm

With all your free time, you ought to drop by our shmupmeets sometimes. :)

grovsnus · Post by **grovsnus** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:45 pm

Sorry, I should have read properly before asking stupid question.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to it.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:42 pm

iatneH wrote:With all your free time, you ought to drop by our shmupmeets sometimes.

Yep i will, the only one that occured since i've been browsing these boards i missed because of a mixup.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:42 am

"Arena shooters are ok"

Well, now, Smash T.V. is okay? But what about Nitro Ball? It's clearly an arena shooter (it's based on the idea of an arena game show, same as Smash T.V.), except it actually scrolls now and then (unlike T.V. or Total Carnage). Oh the madness!

Berzerk must be good, and I'd bet Jackal and Tutankham should be as well.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:21 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:"Arena shooters are ok"

Well, now, Smash T.V. is okay? But what about Nitro Ball? It's clearly an arena shooter (it's based on the idea of an arena game show, same as Smash T.V.), except it actually scrolls now and then (unlike T.V. or Total Carnage). Oh the madness!

Berzerk must be good, and I'd bet Jackal and Tutankham should be as well.

I have no idea what the led to allowing arena shooters, but the Top 25 allows it and i'm following its exact range of games. As for what counts as an arena shooter, i haven't the faintest. Checking the full list from last year's top 25 should be a pretty good indication of what is and isn't allowed.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:45 am

No sense wasting everybody's time debating somebody else's folly, but the full list is not really going to be the greatest determinant of the outer limits of the system. Undead Line is about as wild and crazy as this forum gets (speaking of which, I should revise my list)

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:52 am

my list is da best

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:42 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:the full list is not really going to be the greatest determinant of the outer limits of the system.

I have to admit it's not a great indicator, nobody even voted for my fave arena shooter back in the day: Total Carnage.

shoe-sama wrote:my list is da best

Your list is invalid, so it's certainly the best at something.

God · Post by **God** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:15 pm

the full list is not really going to be the greatest determinant of the outer limits of the system.
I have to admit it's not a great indicator, nobody even voted for my fave arena shooter back in the day: Total Carnage.

If you mean that the further down the list you go looking for results the less accurate it becomes, then I was thinking the same thing actually.

Like that trick on the last page about making a top ten for verts and hories, that's not going to work well for, say, homebrew or Irem games because very few people are voting for either.

So far R-Type 3 and xexex have no votes at all and even if they did, how they rank relative to each other would just be based on the opinions of two or three people.

Post by **spadgy** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:38 pm

shoe-sama wrote:my list is da best

Maybe we'll just use Shoe-sama's list as the final one...

(I shouldn't be encouraging him should I?)

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:49 pm

spadgy wrote:(I shouldn't be encouraging him should I?)

No.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:48 pm

Due to WoW, i won't be compiling the results after all, sorry. justkidding

RGC · Post by **RGC** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:11 pm

At least I wasn't the only one who voted for Elemental Master.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:40 pm

Edited my thread again...I want to put all three Raiden Fighters games in there :p Also Flying Shark would've gotten a mention if I had the room.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:52 pm

There's only one thing i'm stumped with for quickly automating this*: merging one game's multiple lines into one single line with each of its vote #'s. I think it might necessitate writing a script/program. And anyway due to typos and different ways of writing the same game, even a program would be far from perfect. So that part is probly gonna have to be by hand.

e.g. say Dragon Blaze results look like so:

1 Dragon Blaze
5 Dragon Blaze
7 Dragon Blaze
7 Dragon Blaze
7 Dragon Blaze
10 Dragon Blaze

Is there an easy way to automate converting that to:?

Dragon Blaze 1 5 7 7 7 10

or

1 5 7 7 7 10 Dragon Blaze

*I'm using UltraEdit macros and OpenOffice.org Calc (spreadsheet but w/o macros, as i have yet to learn that).

Edit: I mean, it's easy to convert the above example, what i'm really asking is how to automate that for the entire list of games in one go without human intervention for each game.

RGC · Post by **RGC** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:54 am

What happened with Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger? I voted for the PCE version, but I thought there was another vote in there for either MD or PCB release. I can only see one instance in the complete list, presumably that's for the PCE edition?

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:20 am

RGC wrote:What happened with Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger?

A quick check of the html link to the raw data shows there's actually 6 votes for that game (all versions). I assumed that all versions of it are considered one game. If that's wrong please let me know. I only used last year's Top 25's complete list to judge by, which has just the one global Twin Cobra entry.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:56 am

I voted for Twin Cobra (PCB as default), but the PCE port is sexy.

RGC · Post by **RGC** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:24 pm

unsane wrote:
RGC wrote:What happened with Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger?

A quick check of the html link to the raw data shows there's actually 6 votes for that game (all versions). I assumed that all versions of it are considered one game. If that's wrong please let me know. I only used last year's Top 25's complete list to judge by, which has just the one global Twin Cobra entry.

I can't be sure which is closer to the arcade, but I know the PCE and MD ports are quite different to play. It's not that important though, they're both great games.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:44 pm

PCE is closer to arcade.

God · Post by **God** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:07 am

It's been a year and I think unsane hasn't posted in months.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:49 pm

I've been meaning to post about this, and looking at the date it's none too soon!

God wrote:It's been a year and I think unsane hasn't posted in months.

<tangent>Apologies, i'm a neophile, so my reacquainted love of shmups lasted all of 6 months before i moved on again. Those worried that i quit shmups for WoW can breathe a sigh of relief, i've unsubbed and didn't really play all that much anyway. Currently i'm newly addicted to strategy board games, of all things. Anyone like Agricola?

</tangent>

Anyway, i have a few questions:

1) Did people find this whole idea to be interesting?
2) Does it have its place on these boards or is it superfluous?
3) [Unlikely, but] has anything changed in the past year on these forums that would make doing this pointless?
4) Has anything changed in the official annual top 25 that i missed and need to take into account this year?

Despite not really visiting this site anymore, since i took on the original responsibility i'm totally fine with doing it again this year. I'd also be willing to hand the reins over to someone, so long as they give as much attention to detail as i clearly do. If interested PM me.

Also, last year there was one detail that was bothering me that i never got around to ironing out. I wanted to figure out if allowing people to vote in both this and the official annual poll was a bad idea. I was going to do that by comparing <this poll's results> vs. <this poll's results> minus the votes from those who voted in the official annual poll. Sadly i had stopped visiting here by the time the official poll occurred... Anyone have any ideas on this? I might go ahead and finally do the math in the next couple days, but i'm afraid small sample size might render the difference meaningless anyway. I'd also prefer not to change any rules at all, so that results can be validly compared from year to year.

Let me know your thoughts.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:54 pm

I think this was a great idea last year and I want to see it again this year. The only issue I have with it is the ambiguity about how experienced one is. I consider myself pretty noobish at shmups, only been playing them in depth for a few years, I don't have any PCBs and I barely have any 1CCs. On the other hand, though, I've played 21 out of the top 25 last year, as well as a good deal of the honorable mentions, and I did vote in that. Does that mean I'm experienced enough that I shouldn't be voting in the beginner top 10 list? I don't know.

unsane · Post by **unsane** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:29 pm

kengou wrote:The only issue I have with it is the ambiguity about how experienced one is.

I may have overlooked inserting the Top 25's guidelines to help with that:

Herr Schatten wrote:So what constitutes "widely and deeply experienced"? That's impossible to truly quantify, but as a general guideline: voters should be familiar with nearly all (95+%) of the games on previous years' top 25 lists. Furthermore, they should be equally familiar with nearly as many (90+%) of the shmups on previous years' honorable mention lists. And, to the extent that other games voters have listed are available, would-be voters should be familiar with 50%-65+% of those games, as well.

And what constitutes "familiar"? Basically, having played it enough to understand the gameplay mechanisms that make it unique, and/or fun and/or historically important and/or any number of other things you might take as helping define "top."

kengou wrote:only been playing them in depth for a few years [...]. On the other hand, though, I've played 21 out of the top 25 last year, as well as a good deal of the honorable mentions, and I did vote in that. Does that mean I'm experienced enough that I shouldn't be voting in the beginner top 10 list?

It sounds like you're getting close but still missing a bit to be voting in the Top 25. A good candidate for this poll methinks.