Most influential shooters

[JoshF]

Game B 'steals' idea from game A and gets all the 'credit'. I'd rather give credit to the 'originator' of said idea...

So we agree Toaplan shmups deserve more credit than Raiden?

[j^aws]

Game B 'steals' idea from game A and gets all the 'credit'. I'd rather give credit to the 'originator' of said idea...

So we agree Toaplan shmups deserve more credit than Raiden?

Deserving more "credit" for "influencing"? ...Yeah, I'd agree with that...

[Asherdude]

For me it would be Vanguard. It was the first shmup that I remember that had multiple levels and an end boss. Don't know if it was the first to have those, but I can't think of any earlier shmups that included those features.

[j^aws]

I'd also like to give a shout to Centipede (1980) on the abstract use of a 'theme' and 'art'... very cool.

[j^aws]

Okay, came across this quote about Defender:

"Along with Namco's seminal "Pac-Man", Defender shares the title of 'Highest Grossing Video Game of All Time' and to date has earned more than one billion dollars."

http://www.arcade-history.com/index.php ... ail&id=614

... a measure for influence?... I think so...

[Andi]

What do you guys say Darius is most influential with though? The wiiidescreen? That didn't really catch on though. Just the big bosses? Warning screens?

Presentation. The sum of all you quote is what makes Darius so epic and grand in scope. Before Darius, I had never felt so involved into the theme of a shmup. It really conveyed the feel of an exodus war.

Branching zone system.
Widescreen.
Cool tunes for their time.
Detailed graphics.
Huge-ass bosses (with unique names)
Level-up weapons.
And the Silverhawk is just plain cool.

I don't think any other shooter before that had put all of those features together.

First off, I'm a huge ass Darius fan, so, I'm not arguing just because I don't like the series. However, I have a hard time calling Darius influential only because no games seem to emulate Darius. It's pretty unique. As far as I've seen, the branching zone system hasn't been done anywhere near Darius's scale. Widescreen hasn't been done (or at least not on any popular games). Darius's theme and style are also uncopied.

Darius is highly original, but if we're just talking about originality then Satan's Hollow destroys every game on this thread. No game plays like Satan's Hollow. Or, hell, Stargoose, for that matter.

[J-Manic]

I've only been a fan of the genre since the late 90's. So, for me, the shmups that influenced me the most were....

Darius Gaiden
R-Type Delta
Layer Section
DoDonpachi
Raiden 2

[Icarus]

I would however rate Gradius above R-Type, since Gradius had a more widespread audience as R-Type I don't made as much of an impact until later on.

FAIL.
"widespread audience" != influencial in the genre.

R-Type is universally accepted by gaming industry as a major milestone in videogaming. Gradius may have championed sweeping lasers, Options and selectable powerups, but outside of the series and a few cameos in later shootemups such as Toaplan's V-V and Konami's own XEXEX, Gradius did very little.

R-Type, on the other hand, gave us huge battleship levels; alien/organic design; the charge beam; true level design based around smart weapon selection and usage; the emphasis on the total package of art, sound and gameplay. R-Type was extremely ahead of its time in game design, and had major influence on the design of the games that followed it, and that is something that retro gaming purists will always remember.

Oh yeah, Edge did a cover story and a nice feature on R-Type a while back. I still have a copy of that issue. You can read it here, at Destroy All Monsters.

[Turrican]

R-Type, on the other hand, gave us huge battleship levels; alien/organic design; the charge beam; true level design based around smart weapon selection and usage; the emphasis on the total package of art, sound and gameplay. R-Type was extremely ahead of its time in game design, and had major influence on the design of the games that followed it, and that is something that retro gaming purists will always remember.

I think they're quite even in terms of impact. Surely Gradius pionereed the alien/organic design if you count Salamander as part of it, as it obviously is. And in general, the west was struck by R.Type because of the gigeresque setting, but there's little doubt that in their homeland, Gradius was the one making the biggest impact.

[oxtsu]

This might be of interest -- Gamest editor opinion through '97:

Space Invaders (1978/Taito)
Galaxian (1979/Namco)
Missile Command (1980/Taito-Atari Games)
Sasuke vs. Commander (1980/SNK)
Scramble (1980/Konami)
Moon Cresta (1980/Nichibutsu)
Galaga (1981/Namco)
Time Pilot (1982/Konami)
Xevious (1983/Taito)
1942 (1984/Capcom)
B-WING (1984/Data East)
Starforce (1984/Tehkan)
ASO (1985/SNK)
Exed Exes (1985/Capcom)
Gradius (1985/Konami)
Twinbee (1985/Konami)
Argus (1985/Jaleco)
Fantasy Zone (1986/Sega)
Salamander (1986/Konami)
R-Type (1987/Irem)
SDI (1987/Sega)
Darius (1987/Taito)
Dragon Spirit (1987/Namco)
Kyukyoku Tiger (1987/Taito-Toaplan)
Image Fight (1988/Irem)
Lost Worlds (1988/Capcom)
Gradius II (1988/Konami)
Parodius Da! (1990/Konami)
Raiden (1990/Seibu Kaihatsu)
Sonic Wings (1992/Video System)
Tatsujin Oh (1992/Toaplan)
Rayforce (1994/Taito)
Darius Gaiden (1994/Taito)
Strikers 1945 (1995/Psikyo)
Battle Garegga (1996/Eighting-Raizing)
Dodonpachi (1997/Atlus-Cave)

They explain all this shit; if you want to translate I can probably send scans.

[Limbrooke]

I would however rate Gradius above R-Type, since Gradius had a more widespread audience as R-Type I don't made as much of an impact until later on.

FAIL.
"widespread audience" != influencial in the genre.

R-Type is universally accepted by gaming industry as a major milestone in videogaming. Gradius may have championed sweeping lasers, Options and selectable powerups, but outside of the series and a few cameos in later shootemups such as Toaplan's V-V and Konami's own XEXEX, Gradius did very little.

R-Type, on the other hand, gave us huge battleship levels; alien/organic design; the charge beam; true level design based around smart weapon selection and usage; the emphasis on the total package of art, sound and gameplay. R-Type was extremely ahead of its time in game design, and had major influence on the design of the games that followed it, and that is something that retro gaming purists will always remember.

Oh yeah, Edge did a cover story and a nice feature on R-Type a while back. I still have a copy of that issue. You can read it here, at Destroy All Monsters.

It's opinion, thanks for noticing.
As you describe, R-Type was more influential to the development of later on shmups, and I agree. I don't think counts for the entire industry however, and the impact I think wasn't felt immediately and not as widespread. So while you illustrate an excellent point to R-Type's defense it's a one sided affair in that R-Type was very influential in future shmup design elements. However, R-Type itself didn't get widespread influence within the industry, among the gamers, at least not as much as Gradius I would say. Say what you want, but living in North America I had zero exposure to R-Type and basically didn't know it existed until I saw R-Type Final. Not much influence compared to Gradius which I had known since I was young child and in that respect I wasn't alone. The exposure difference between R-Type and Gradius in the west wasn't even close as far as I'm concerned. It would be interesting to see if R-Type would've still existed had Gradius not come about at all, no matter.

[Icarus]

I'll work backwards through your post.

Say what you want, but living in North America I had zero exposure to R-Type and basically didn't know it existed until I saw R-Type Final. Not much influence compared to Gradius which I had known since I was young child and in that respect I wasn't alone. The exposure difference between R-Type and Gradius in the west wasn't even close as far as I'm concerned. It would be interesting to see if R-Type would've still existed had Gradius not come about at all, no matter.

Herein lies the "problem" (for want of a better word, note quotation marks, yes it's late) with your opinion: exposure. Whereas you didn't get exposure to the R-Type series until Final, I grew up with both Gradius and R-Type in the arcades, and saw the impact that R-Type had on shootemups of the era. As a gamer, I find that while Gradius was fun to play back then, R-Type had more of an impact on the way that I would perceive the genre with regards to art, sound and gameplay design.

I don't particularly agree that Gradius had more impact in the industry compared to R-Type, because there is very little of Gradius's influence I can see in shooters of that era. If anything, Gradius only started becoming the force it is with Gradius 2, and amusingly, that was only after R-Type did things to change the way shooters were developed. Gradius hasn't aged well at all IMO, R-Type is timeless.

And yes, I do play both occasionally, because I like the nostalgia.

It's opinion, thanks for noticing.
As you describe, R-Type was more influential to the development of later on shmups, and I agree. I don't think counts for the entire industry however, and the impact I think wasn't felt immediately and not as widespread. So while you illustrate an excellent point to R-Type's defense it's a one sided affair in that R-Type was very influential in future shmup design elements. However, R-Type itself didn't get widespread influence within the industry, among the gamers, at least not as much as Gradius I would say.

That depends on who the original question is referring to: influence among gamers or influence among the industry? My point was to highlight R-Type's influence within game design. Gradius, being the older of the two, is more likely to pick up more influence among gamers, especially considering Gradius was ported to hell and back and easily available (NES, anyone?) compared to R-Type (PCE, anyone? Hello?).

Six and two threes.

We could argue this point back and forth for ages, and I'm sure this debate was done a while ago. Anyone care to dig up old posts?

[jpj]

Ikaruga [...] brought the spotlight back on the genre. That speaks volumes for influence. Since Ikaruga I cannot think of many games that have left an impression such as that, not even Gradius 5.

and instead of having a nerd argument about X vs. Y remember that this is to help someone writing a shitty feature in a shitty UK retro mag, of which, possibly 1% of it's readership play shooters............and even then its on mame.

but limbrooke said it right just there. it's what has influenced the players and captured people's imaginations. the feature should read as more of a "who's who" of shooters so that the people reading who've never played a shooter will have a good place to start. and not for nerds who wanna argue "this game did this before that game did" . r-type over gradius cos r-type is better. and drop radiant silvergun in there somewhere for extra kudos

[No_not_like_Quake]

Gradius influenced the Gradius series.

R-type created a whole sub-genre (memory based shmups).

Both were highly influentual and important in the evolution of horizontal shmups though, I'd say.

[j^aws]

Came across some Spacewar (1962 mainframe, remade 1977) 'clones' from circa '75, '76, by Fun Games; I thought might be worth a mention FWIW:

http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer ... bs&id=2498

http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer ... bs&id=2499

http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer ... mbs&id=560

... Those bi-plane flyer artwork look great... and "King" had "King Kong" as a giant 'boss'!

EDIT:

Reading the King flyer; It has some sort of 'rank' system to control difficulty... the first?

EDIT 2:

Doesn't look like Robotron: 2084 has the "twin stick" claim... but probably still the "independent" firing and movement; can't be sure from those flyers...

EDIT 3:

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?let ... me_id=7098

... KLOV describes Biplane with 2, 2-way sticks, akin to 'tank' controls: Different from 2, 8-way sticks for Robotron.

Biplane 4: Probably the first 4 player in the genre...

[DazTM]

Ikaruga [...] brought the spotlight back on the genre. That speaks volumes for influence. Since Ikaruga I cannot think of many games that have left an impression such as that, not even Gradius 5.

and instead of having a nerd argument about X vs. Y remember that this is to help someone writing a shitty feature in a shitty UK retro mag, of which, possibly 1% of it's readership play shooters............and even then its on mame.

It's not for a shitty UK retro mag. It's for gamesTM. And you're probably right, only 1% of the mag probably does like shoot-em-ups, so why can't we help influence the other 995?

I don't write shitty features, but thanks for the optimism

Edit - just seen the rest of your post, whixh is much more positive

[ubersaurus]

Spacewar from 1962 was probably one of the most influential games ever made, period. Aside from being the first shooter, it was the first 2 player shooter. Computer Space (the first commercial arcade release, and also a shooter) was based off of it, as was Space Wars in 1977. Free roaming shooters like Asteroids and Robotron owe much to Spacewar, as do vs shooters like Star Control and Wartech.

Also Computer Space was made in both a 1p and 2p version

[Nuke]

Tokyo for how it forshadowed the way verticals would be made for a long time.

[system11]

- Galaxian (1979): First enemy 'chaining' scoring system (?) or Space Invaders (?)...

Galaxian was the first true multi-colour arcade game. That makes it important in my book, if not actually infuential. It may well have been the first wave-based game where the enemies broke formation though.

[BrianC]

Twinbee was probably influential. One of the first cute 'em up style games. Games like Fantasy Zone took inspiration from it with the ship design and wacky enemies. Twinbee also had colored power ups, probably one of the first shmups to do so.

[jpj]

Ikaruga [...] brought the spotlight back on the genre. That speaks volumes for influence. Since Ikaruga I cannot think of many games that have left an impression such as that, not even Gradius 5.

and instead of having a nerd argument about X vs. Y remember that this is to help someone writing a shitty feature in a shitty UK retro mag, of which, possibly 1% of it's readership play shooters............and even then its on mame.

It's not for a shitty UK retro mag. It's for gamesTM. And you're probably right, only 1% of the mag probably does like shoot-em-ups, so why can't we help influence the other 995?

I don't write shitty features, but thanks for the optimism

Edit - just seen the rest of your post, whixh is much more positive

sorry mate, but i just can't forgive you giving gradius v 7/10.

i am a fan of gamestm, but i do miss the martin mathers days is this for a bible feature then.......?

[captain ahar]

took long enough for toaplan to come up. for shame.

[DazTM]

so am I going to get flamed if I say space war is the first shmup. Or should I stick with Space Invaders...

[jpj]

tough question.

i suppose that all depends on what your definition of a "shmup" is...