Checkpoints in shmups: love ‘em or hate ‘em?

[Shocky]

Checkpoints, please. Or restart whole level.

I just can't really motivate myself to play for score, or restrict to 1-3 credits. It's just not the same, when I know I could beat the game whenever I wish. Checkpoint games like R-Type Delta offer a real challenge, without any other way to progress than developing own skills and memorizing.

I have yet to see a game where it's impossible to beat some level even after dying and losing all power-ups. Anyone?

"kccttzj", could you specify which part of Gradius Galaxies you think is impossible without speedups?

The only things that could motivate me to score are competitions or online ranking. I've been playing Blast Factor (ps3) a lot mainly because of the online ranking, even though I suspect that the two world top scores are somehow hax0red.

[kccttzj]

"kccttzj", could you specify which part of Gradius Galaxies you think is impossible without speedups?

It may be possible, but I haven't figured it out yet.. It's the speed level and you checkpoint right before those three clampy things. Right after that the whole level scrolls down, but without any speedups I just run right into the wall.

[DEL]

Shocky wrote;

I have yet to see a game where it's impossible to beat some level even after dying and losing all power-ups. Anyone?

That's because you haven't played the old 1 lifer games from the 80s.
Try losing a life on the last stage of Nemesis/Gradius.

[shinsage]

i have never been able to beat pulstar because of checkpoints.

[PFG 9000]

"kccttzj", could you specify which part of Gradius Galaxies you think is impossible without speedups?

It may be possible, but I haven't figured it out yet.. It's the speed level and you checkpoint right before those three clampy things. Right after that the whole level scrolls down, but without any speedups I just run right into the wall.

There's also that part where you fight that one boss that gets "repaired" after the first two times you kill him. If you die there, you don't get any speedups before fighting him and have to fight all three forms in your ultra slow mode. Doable, but painfully slow and frustrating.

[Adigun A. Polack]

Well to my experience, I once had The Raiden Project on PS1, which actually offered you TWO types of restart points in solo-player mode: respawn (the default setting) and checkpoint. I chose checkpoint, and on Raiden II there as one of two games featured (the other game was an excellent conversion of Raiden, by the way!), when I restarted just after my ship got blown up, I was back to a certain point within an area... but the worst thing about it is that if you die just quickly after your ship has already restarted, you restart even further back!! VERY AGGRAVATING if I say so myself, which is exactly why I had to switch back to the respawn setting eventually to make my life a bit more easier, you know?

And if any of you have ever played R-Type Leo, then you can remember for sure that it is the ONLY R-Type game in existence that fully allowed the respawn feature instead of checkpoints at all, which is quite a helluva perfect stress reliever for those who are just mad as nails at restarting back to a certain point over and over and over in other R-Type games... well you get the idea, I am sure.

[doctorx0079]

I honestly never really minded checkpoints until I played Gradius Galaxies. There was a part that I got to where if you die, you checkpoint to a place where you *have* to have at least two speedups to survive, so I lose every life on that part.

I found this kinda amusing because, in Hint mode Gradius Galaxies shows you with little videos how to come back from every checkpoint, starting with zero power-ups. Yes, it can be done. It's one of the coolest features ever. Take that Gradius haters!!

You can get the two speedups if you're quick about it.

[Shocky]

Shocky wrote;

I have yet to see a game where it's impossible to beat some level even after dying and losing all power-ups. Anyone?

That's because you haven't played the old 1 lifer games from the 80s.
Try losing a life on the last stage of Nemesis/Gradius.

Wrong, I grew up playing those. In Nemesis/Gradius I had to give up once when I died in the last half of the last stage, I thought it was impossible. Well it's not, I've done it. Any other suggestions?

[kccttzj]

I honestly never really minded checkpoints until I played Gradius Galaxies. There was a part that I got to where if you die, you checkpoint to a place where you *have* to have at least two speedups to survive, so I lose every life on that part.

I found this kinda amusing because, in Hint mode Gradius Galaxies shows you with little videos how to come back from every checkpoint, starting with zero power-ups. Yes, it can be done. It's one of the coolest features ever. Take that Gradius haters!!

You can get the two speedups if you're quick about it.

Lol. Wow. You know, as much as I've played the game you'd think I would have done that, but that just goes to show how stubborn/lazy I am. So, I guess it can be done, but I still don't think I'll be able to do it. =P

[Adigun A. Polack]

Quite the beauty of the built-in demonstration game vids from Gradius Galaxies Hint Mode is that if you study the play-by-play of how to successfully recover from a checkpoint (even at the TOUGHEST parts that you just cannot seem to overcome! ), then you will edge closer and closer towards winning the stage! Not easy though, as it might just take plenty of practice to get there, but you can do it!!!

Definitely one of the most innovative features of any shmup riddled with checkpoints, modern or otherwise!! Take SERIOUS note, future shooting game developers!!! d==b

[Klatrymadon]

I don't have a problem with well-placed checkpoints at all. They ensure that even those pesky credit-feeders learn the ropes (instead of just bouncing off enemies all the way to the end).

And yeah, every checkpoint in the entire Gradius series is doable without armaments. Even the ones in those punishing bubble stages and the ice one from Gradius II.

In the first game it's just a matter of thinking ahead and controlling your rank...

[DEL]

Shocky wrote;

Wrong, I grew up playing those. In Nemesis/Gradius I had to give up once when I died in the last half of the last stage, I thought it was impossible. Well it's not, I've done it. Any other suggestions?

Whoops, sorry for underestimating your age .
You recovered from that death in the last half of the last stage of Nemesis/Gradius I?! Hmm...maybe you're right I really meant dying on the last section of Gradius II (PCB) - the bit where the walls crumble and bum-rush you....BADLY! If you can recover from THAT checkpoint, I'll admit you're right .

[God]

I love checkpoints. They stop a game from being credfeedable, so you have the option of playing them to win (like people play normal non-shmup games) instead of being forced to play for 1CC or score.

Getting stuck without powerups, I blame on the powerups not the checkpoint. There's little excuse for Gradius syndrome in a post-silvergun world.

[P_HAT]

i have never been able to beat pulstar because of checkpoints.

+1


So, i HATE them!

[doctorx0079]

I honestly never really minded checkpoints until I played Gradius Galaxies. There was a part that I got to where if you die, you checkpoint to a place where you *have* to have at least two speedups to survive, so I lose every life on that part.

I found this kinda amusing because, in Hint mode Gradius Galaxies shows you with little videos how to come back from every checkpoint, starting with zero power-ups. Yes, it can be done. It's one of the coolest features ever. Take that Gradius haters!!

You can get the two speedups if you're quick about it.

Lol. Wow. You know, as much as I've played the game you'd think I would have done that, but that just goes to show how stubborn/lazy I am. So, I guess it can be done, but I still don't think I'll be able to do it. =P

Sorry, I might have been a little harsh, but uh . .

Are you talking about in stage 8? There's a checkpoint where you can get two capsules, then the scrolling speeds up and columns come from the top and bottom to smoosh you. I just tried this again today. What you have to do is, get one capsule, hit the power-up button, then immediately get the next capsule and hit the power-up button, as you start heading up to the middle of the screen. You have to do all that in about one second. You can't think about it or you won't make it. It took me several tries to do it this afternoon. It's diabolical but doable. Someone must have tested this and tweaked it for ages until it was just barely possible. It shows you that yes, someone has designed these checkpoints deliberately and made sure they are beatable. They aren't just randomly stuck in any old way.

Now can someone tell me if it's possible to come back from the checkpoint in the middle of stage 7 in the SECOND loop of R-Type? Because I find that hard to believe. It's pretty hard in the first loop, and I have never managed it in the second.

[Ko.oS]

due to my shitty connection I can't "crosscheck" the vid for you,
but iirc it shows how to recover from a death in stages 14, 15, 16.
give it a try. if its the wrong vid/checkpoint, then its still okay, because it
shows you the game's stafflist -- i've never seen it anywhere else.

http://super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=333

btw, as you may know, rtype doesn't award points for extra ships upon
clearing the loop-over, so experts repeatedly die on purpose in stage
7/15 in order to "milk the boss" convert excess lives into points and
maximize their score.
it's arguably the hardest spot in the game, and finishing the game w/ little to
no room for errors takes some nerves, so i guess its easier said that done.

__________________________________
"we live in a time of unparalled danger"

[DEL]

Silly me , I forgot a checkpoint that I don't know how to recover from --> The start of the Stage 9 ever on Konami's Lightning Fighters.

Another one would be Image Fight's Penalty stage.

Can these be done Shocky?

[doctorx0079]

due to my shitty connection I can't "crosscheck" the vid for you,
but iirc it shows how to recover from a death in stages 14, 15, 16.
give it a try. if its the wrong vid/checkpoint, then its still okay, because it
shows you the game's stafflist -- i've never seen it anywhere else.

http://super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=333

btw, as you may know, rtype doesn't award points for extra ships upon
clearing the loop-over, so experts repeatedly die on purpose in stage
7/15 in order to "milk the boss" convert excess lives into points and
maximize their score.
it's arguably the hardest spot in the game, and finishing the game w/ little to
no room for errors takes some nerves, so i guess its easier said that done.

__________________________________
"we live in a time of unparalled danger"

Thanx for pointing that out. That video > me. The way he does stage 7 is way better than me. Although I think the credits at the end are for the video, not the game.

[Motorherp]

For me I much prefare respawning since its more forgiving and keeps the action flowing. Obviously there's the point about side-stepping the near impossible restarts but there's also another side to it. For example if there's one bullet pattern you just cant usualy get around and you loose a life to it, you'll only loose the one life to it due to the usual added invulnerability or bullet free period on respawn and you'll then be allowed to carry on past that point. With the check point or restart system the whole game grinds to a halt because you're forced to encounter that pattern again and again.