How do you feel about chaining?

[Rob]

Sorry, but I refuse to believe that anyone who scores higher than me in Gunbird 2 is only a "casual" shmupper.

Relatively speaking. v

but my main interest is the score I get at the end, so I learn to deal with it.

[BulletMagnet]

Says the person that scored 59th out of 71 players in the first week of the tournament.

Ooooooh, you sure got me there, I was really making you and the other top-tiers sweat there last round, wasn't I?

[FatCobra]

About the Bakraid chaing, I guess enemy chaining is much more important than medal chaining. Sure, the medal points help, but it's not worth getting hit just to snatch far away from you. Unless the multipler also applies to the medals as well.

[Blade]

I'd actually prefer it if chaining didn't destroy the scoring mechanic. The way I see it, chains should just be a side-scoring system that only boosts score, not forcing you to play a certain way.

[Acid King]

About the Bakraid chaing, I guess enemy chaining is much more important than medal chaining. Sure, the medal points help, but it's not worth getting hit just to snatch far away from you. Unless the multipler also applies to the medals as well.

Well, you can get 100,000 point medals if you've maxed your medal value and expose medals during a chain so it affects it in some regard. Enemy chaining is more important than medaling in Bakraid but Bakraid is way WAAAAY more anal about chaining than Ikaruga is. Only certain enemies can be chained, they're stretched out all over the levels so you cant straight chain through without manipulating the multiplier timer with suicides and bombs, you need to both suicide and bomb to get a decent chain, and the fact that you can pick your spots by selectively shooting enemies without losing your chain in Ikaruga automatically makes it less strict than Bakraid's split second chain loss.

[CodeMonkey]

So to clarify, optional means:

a) You can 1cc the game while ignoring this feature.

-- or --

b) You can get a competitive high score while ignoring this feature.

Which is it? I feel like we are talking about two different things right now and I am confused.

[BulletMagnet]

Depends on who you ask, though I fall on the "A" side. I honestly can't think of a game which includes chaining that can be ignored while still getting high scores, anyway. Methinks it more or less comes down to whether you're a player who's willing to play "for survival" sometimes, or one who always plays for score.

[Icarus]

In some games, scoring and survival are one entity. For example, in Dodonpachi Daioujou, the best route through the stage is often the best chaining route, while in Silvergun, chaining boosts your weapon strength, enabling you to tackle stages and bosses easier. Ignoring the scoring system in those games can be done, but you risk your own survival doing so.

[Twiddle]

In Raiden Fighters, getting all the secrets in one stage maxes the rank out right away.

If you get no secrets at all, the rank is maxed out at stage 4. If you don't die that is.

The rank increase takes no account whatsoever if you're on your last life or not. Whereas Battle Garegga simply fills the screen with bullets (and gives enemies 15 times the hitpoints), eventually RF throws bullets so fast that you sometimes are completely unable to track them.

It's not really a good example of score vs survival because you're only making 3 stages easier instead of, say, THE where rank is literally near minimum until you go over 20 million.

[CodeMonkey]

I too fall on the A) side of what optional means.

Though chaining giving you more powerful weapons making the game easier definitely blurs that line since you don't NEED to do it to win, but it sure helps? If I had to draw a line somewhere, I would tend to say that if chaining helps you complete the game via powerups or any influence besides score then it isn't truly optional anymore. Something where a chain path makes the game easier due to its close relation to keeping the screen clear does feel optional. I can show you some pretty terrible paths in DoDonPachi that don't link well, but do keep the screen free of enemies for the most part.

[Rob]

In some games, scoring and survival are one entity. For example, in Dodonpachi Daioujou,

You have to go out of your way to play for score in DOJ like most score-based games, and it is irrelevant to survival aside from an extra life or two. Destroy enemies early, in whatever order you want, don't increase rank with hypers, use bombs, etc. Not the same.

[Acid King]

Depends on who you ask, though I fall on the "A" side. I honestly can't think of a game which includes chaining that can be ignored while still getting high scores, anyway. Methinks it more or less comes down to whether you're a player who's willing to play "for survival" sometimes, or one who always plays for score.

Aside from Radiant Silvergun, where chaining is required to gain access to better weapons and make the later stages and bosses easier, there is no game that has a "mandatory" chaining system... unless you count the Pachi's and say that the inability to keep the hit counter below 2 makes chaining unavoidable. If that's the case it makes discussion of a chaining being "optional" pointless, because it's always optional since it's never required to clear the game.

[BulletMagnet]

Aside from Radiant Silvergun, where chaining is required to gain access to better weapons and make the later stages and bosses easier, there is no game that has a "mandatory" chaining system...

That and Mars Matrix, I'd say, though it's a slightly different type of chaining.

[EOJ]

In some games, scoring and survival are one entity. For example, in Dodonpachi Daioujou,

You have to go out of your way to play for score in DOJ like most score-based games, and it is irrelevant to survival aside from an extra life or two. Destroy enemies early, in whatever order you want, don't increase rank with hypers, use bombs, etc. Not the same.

I agree with Rob here. CVM (a great Ikaruga player who doesn't seem to post here anymore) 1CC'd the first loop of DDP DOJ in a couple weeks of play with no big chains (he didn't have a 'chaining route', he just sorta blasted through the levels and played for survival). His final score was 56 or 59 mil.

[Acid King]

Aside from Radiant Silvergun, where chaining is required to gain access to better weapons and make the later stages and bosses easier, there is no game that has a "mandatory" chaining system...

That and Mars Matrix, I'd say, though it's a slightly different type of chaining.

Either way, it renders an "optional" chaining discussion useless since it is almost never mandatory. Even in Mars Matrix and Silvergun you could not chain and still beat the game... though it'd be much harder.

[Twiddle]

The piercing bolt has adequate power regardless of level in MM.

You're more or less fucked if you destroy everything in RSG.

[Davey]

Aside from Radiant Silvergun, where chaining is required to gain access to better weapons and make the later stages and bosses easier, there is no game that has a "mandatory" chaining system...

That and Mars Matrix, I'd say, though it's a slightly different type of chaining.

Never played RS, but in MM, isn't the piercing cannon more important than your regular shot anyway?

I don't find chaining inherently enjoyable, it's just drudgery you endure to get a reward. Maybe I'm just too non-hardcore, but I think a game should be fun, not work.

Weaving through a barrage of bullets is exciting and instantly gratifying, meticulously rehearsing a set of timed inputs isn't (for me, at least). Until you're good at it, it's boring and/or frustrating, and once you master it, you're performing the game, not playing it.

I also feel constricted when there's One True Path that allows you to chain a level correctly. Granted, this limitation really only affects players who are infinitely better than I am, but just knowing that it's there is still a turn-off to me.

I would prefer that scoring be based on mastering a game's mechanics and being able to apply your skill on the fly, as opposed to just learning level layouts inside-out through repetition... but that's probably more related to my random vs. non-random rant.

Yet I can't seem to ignore chaining. I can't just turn off my brain and pretend like chaining doesn't exist once I've started practicing. The chaining strategy is burned into my memory, and my instincts won't let me ignore it. It's kind of a paradox, because even though I don't like chaining, I feel like the game is missing something when I just mindlessly blast away.

...I think I'm having a falling out with this genre.

[Rob]

That and Mars Matrix, I'd say, though it's a slightly different type of chaining.

What Twiddle and Davey said, the piercing cannon (and the mosquito) are the main offensive force and don't increase in power.

[BulletMagnet]

That definitely helps, though I'd still say that beating the game without chaining is a feat for shmupping gods only.

[Rob]

That definitely helps, though I'd still say that beating the game without chaining is a feat for shmupping gods only.

NTSC-J could probably disagree with that.

I would prefer that scoring be based on mastering a game's mechanics and being able to apply your skill on the fly, as opposed to just learning level layouts inside-out through repetition... but that's probably more related to my random vs. non-random rant.

This is probably because you've just never found a game with chaining interesting enough to you. I think of enemy chaining as a memorization exercise and it bores me without fail. I think of MM as a really clever game system and elaborate puzzle with very fast paced action (w/ type 2 ship). I like finding a rhythm to using the charge bar, finding a new way to add 100 cubes to a chain. Every stage is like its own puzzle, and as far as I know there's no "master play" floating around to expose them all, so it feels limitless in a way. It also has the performance benefit of being able to correct errors on the fly (and some places like the connecting point of stage 2 are pretty well improvised). It's as much of a balance between what you're looking for and a plain memorization exercise as it gets.

[Davey]

This is probably because you've just never found a game with chaining interesting enough to you.

I was thinking that I was lazy and I sucked, but your way has a nicer ring to it.

The discouraging thing about Mars Matrix is that the cube points go up exponentially as the chain grows, so one timing mistake in the middle of a large chain incurs a huge penalty (although this applies to most chaining systems). I mean it's fair and all, as monstrously huge chains are way more difficult to pull off and should be rewarded accordingly, but it's still frustrating. I should probably revisit that game someday though, it's been awhile.

blah blah blah Kenta Cho blah blah blah randomly generated blah blah blah make it fun.

[Rob]

I really have to try Kenta Cho (and other PC shooters) someday. I'm intrigued.

I didn't like MM as much until I practiced through the stages enough to get complete chains down. Then it gets really good. MM just keeps getting better, unlike every other shooter I've played (not that they weren't fun, it just goes practice/fun ->.beat game/reach scoring goal -> fun slopes down as there's no challenge left or refinements become too minor, arcane, annoying).

[BeauZilla 002]

Not the best poll I've ever seen.Its like saying "how do you feel about jumping" in platformers or "how do you like drummers" in music.

For me,its up to each shmup to MAKE me want to chain.otherwise,ya,who cares?

[Davey]

I really have to try Kenta Cho (and other PC shooters) someday. I'm intrigued.

They can't possibly be as orgasmic as I make them out to be, but hey, as long as you're better than shiftace and me, you can dominate the score boards.

Its like saying "how do you feel about jumping" in platformers

Eh, not really. By definition, a platform game revolves around jumping, and you can't just avoid jumping if you don't like it. Shmups can exist without chaining, and you can usually ignore chaining in the shmups that do have it (if not playing for score).

For me,its up to each shmup to MAKE me want to chain.

Exactly.

[Twiddle]

I prefer chaining if it's in short bursts of a stage, like Raiden Fighters Jet.

Keeping one throughout the whole level doesn't sit quite well with me, because more often than not your entire score is riding on it.

[dave4shmups]

I'm pretty much indifferent, but it can depend on the game, which is why I wish that had been a voting option. I very much prefer the old-school method, where your chain consists of just shooting one "line" of enemies in a row; like Darius I and II, for example. "Varying your shots" just makes me think of strat RPG's, not shmups.