Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Guspaz]

Recently got a PVM 20L2MD (manufacture date, January 2005).

(snip)

1. The word "Deflection" at the top left while I'm in the service menu is warped. Kind of confused on this one as I would've thought the entire contents on the display would be warped and as you can see the 240p test suite grid underneath the menu text is not warped in the same way at all.

2. If I use the service menu to adjust the horizontal position and move it over to the right (since as you can see there's a gap at the right edge of the display) even by just 1 from where it is shown in the photo above, the menu text disappears completely. However, the content coming in over the RGB video signal appears unaffected and I can keep adjusting the horizontal position even though the menu text is gone... however, I have to do it blind at this point. Even if I exit out of that service menu entry and go back to the main menu, the menu text remains completely hidden.

(snip)

I got a PVM-14L2 yesterday, and it has the same exact problem: menu stuff (or any internally generated signal) at the top of the screen is distorted, but the actual video display from the inputs is fine.

Also, anyone happen to have a copy of the service manual for the 20L2MD?

I'd be very interested in that too, as the service menu is likely the same for my 14L2.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'd be very interested in that too, as the service menu is likely the same for my 14L2.

What are you looking to do? It's all pretty self-explanatory in there if you know what the labels mean.

In the menu, press degauss + enter to get to the service menu.

[Guspaz]

Yeah, but the explanation of what all the labels mean would be nice. And for future problems, documentation on the pots inside would also be nice.

[tacoguy64]

Picked up two Sony GDM-FW900 yesterday on craigslist.
My first impressions so far is that she's a huge bitch. It really didn't look big in the pictures but I was lucky I could fit both in my car.

Haven't really messed with any of the settings yet but the menu seems much more easier to navigate in comparison to my BVM. Since I believe the monitor is only 31khz it can't display any of my older consoles aside from the Dreamcast and up. I would probably need to look for an xrgb 3 in order to hook up older displays. Would a HDMI to VGA adapter work with the frameister?

The pics are too big so I am posting only a few on here but will provide a link to the albulm.
As always the pics were taken by a crappy phone camera...

Album
http://imgur.com/a/2CT7D

Spoiler

NBA Showtime



NBA 2k1



Dead or Alive 2



Sega Smash Pack







Trine 2

[Fudoh]

Haven't really messed with any of the settings yet but the menu seems much more easier to navigate in comparison to my BVM.

but then again you don't get this much options. There's a control port accessable through the air vents on the side, which you can use to do "deeper" adjustments. Infos on that on the FW900 on hardforum.com .

probably need to look for an xrgb 3 in order to hook up older displays. Would a HDMI to VGA adapter work with the frameister?

yes, it does.

In my sales thread you got two XRGB-3 snapshots: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ilit=fw900

[tacoguy64]

Thanks Fudoh,

Those links are gonna come in real handy.

[korpse413]

The BVM D20 can handle VGA signals, correct? Do I need another card for this support? Or does there exist some converter for VGA to BNC or something?

[Fudoh]

You can try to feed the H/V sync through a t-connector or - better - use an external sync converter, e.g. RGBHV to RGsB.

[korpse413]

Thanks for the fast reply Fudoh, something like this? http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=6628

Edit: I'm guessing the Black and Grey cables from my link are the Hori / Vert Sync?

[Fudoh]

yes, you need something like this (but you want male BNC plugs, not female ones), but that's not what I meant. The BVM has no input for H/V sync, only C-Sync or Sync on Green, so you want an active converter from RGBHV to RGsB. For example this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTRON-Architec ... 566f9e7731

[BazookaBen]

Why is an active converter better? I used a T-connector for 15hz stuff from my PC and it looked fine.

[korpse413]

Very strange indeed. I guess I would go standard male to male vga from the Dreamcast VGA box - to that Extrons vga input - then the output run BNC cabling from the RGB sources? I notice there are H/HV and V outputs on that Extron, do we just ignore them and mess with the dip switch settings that are on the front?

If anyone has any photos of their BVM D20F1U setup running any VGA source, care to share it or PM?

[Fudoh]

Why is an active converter better? I used a T-connector for 15hz stuff from my PC and it looked fine.

in this setup because it allows to convert to RGsB instead of RGBs, so he doesn't have to use the only sync input on his monitor. It's just easier. Especially for BVMs with a 20D or 21D add on board.

I guess I would go standard male to male vga from the Dreamcast VGA box - to that Extrons vga input - then the output run BNC cabling from the RGB sources? I notice there are H/HV and V outputs on that Extron, do we just ignore them and mess with the dip switch settings that are on the front?

you go VGA to VGA from the DC to the Extron. You enable the SOG dipswitch on the Extron. You use three BNC cables (male to male) to go from the Extron to the BVM. You set the BVM to RGB w/ internal sync. Done.

[Ed Oscuro]

Yeah, but the explanation of what all the labels mean would be nice. And for future problems, documentation on the pots inside would also be nice.

Feel free to ask questions about any labels you're interested in, and it's possible I might start documenting some settings and their apparent changes (like was done in the FV310 thread for TVs).

[nissling]

absolutely, but it would be nice to see the difference to your 240p BVM snapshots and 480p with strong scanlines should be the closest you can get.

Here you go! A small comparison. Used somewhat high ISO on the HDM for Super Mario Bros. 3 though so beware.

BVM-20F1J

Spoiler

HDM-3830 (1080i, w/o scanlines)

Spoiler

HDM-3830 (480p, w/ scanlines)

Spoiler

Samsung 21N112T (my last consumer CRT)

Spoiler

And Castlevania.

BVM-20F1J

Spoiler

HDM-3830 (480p, w/scanlines)

Spoiler

Samsung 21N112T

Spoiler

Now the HDM may look soft with Castlevania but that's due to the downscaling. Here's a cropped version.

Spoiler

It's an interesting, unique monitor for sure. What do you guys think?

[FinalBaton]

Thanks for this, very interesting comparison

Sebastian you know I LOVE anime and movies blu rays on the HDM, and consider it elite in that application,
but for 15kHz games the BVM blows it out of the water

Still a very fine picture. I like the 1080i w/o scanlines image better than the 480p w/scanlines on it (even though I generally prefer scanlines for 15kHz).

And I'll say it again : I like the Samsung quite a lot. Picture has a nice feel to it

[nissling]

Sinve I've seen both IRL, I can say that I do prefer the BVM for 15KHz games for its cleaner, sharper picture but the HDM and XRGB combo still provides a very nice look. My main issue with the HDM is the afterburning phosphor, which is very obvious in scrolling games with a black background. The BVM is much better in this regard, but I still find the HDM to give a fine mix of the same sharpness you'd expect from an emulator while remaining the CRT glow. For arcade games like Donkey Kong and Pac Man I prefer the HDM over the BVM.

[FinalBaton]

same sharpness you'd expect from an emulator while remaining the CRT glow

agreed. that's a fun picture also
might get a XBR960 (to play mainly Dreamcast) and once in a while will play 240p games upscaled with the XRGB-3 on it

[QXC]

same sharpness you'd expect from an emulator while remaining the CRT glow

agreed. that's a fun picture also
might get a XBR960 (to play mainly Dreamcast) and once in a while will play 240p games upscaled with the XRGB-3 on it

Better use it for movies/general HD content. I have a 910 and it's pretty darn good for that kinda stuff, even if the geometry is a smidge wonky and the convergence is off in one of the corners...

[RGB32E]

http://www.avsforum.com/goodwill-doesnt ... d-crt-tvs/

Looking beyond people who only have $5 or $10 to spend on a TV, maybe there are hipsters out there playing classic video games on a CRTs because it’s cool—zero display lag is perfect for Pac Man—and perhaps someday CRTs will once again be sought-after, and considered vintage. Somehow, I doubt it, but you never know what will catch on.

Damn hipsters!

[BazookaBen]

I figured it would happen sooner or later. Goodwill had way more CRT's than they could every hope to sell. I wish they'd still take in Trinitrons. Guess this means I'll never spot a PC CRT there ever again too.

[FinalBaton]

http://www.avsforum.com/goodwill-doesnt ... d-crt-tvs/

Looking beyond people who only have $5 or $10 to spend on a TV, maybe there are hipsters out there playing classic video games on a CRTs because it’s cool—zero display lag is perfect for Pac Man—and perhaps someday CRTs will once again be sought-after, and considered vintage. Somehow, I doubt it, but you never know what will catch on.

Damn hipsters!

haha! looks like we are hipsters without even knowing

[FinalBaton]

Better use it for movies/general HD content.

I'm actually looking forward to using a SFP for this

[Ed Oscuro]

http://www.avsforum.com/goodwill-doesnt ... d-crt-tvs/

Looking beyond people who only have $5 or $10 to spend on a TV, maybe there are hipsters out there playing classic video games on a CRTs because it’s cool—zero display lag is perfect for Pac Man—and perhaps someday CRTs will once again be sought-after, and considered vintage. Somehow, I doubt it, but you never know what will catch on.

Damn hipsters!

haha! looks like we are hipsters without even knowing

lol @ these
http://www.walmart.com/browse/toys/kids ... 30_1096131

lol @ that article even.
the guy is obviously wise to the reasons (he even states one), but..."hipsters"

[tacoguy64]

The article would have been funny if it was written more than 5 years ago.

[bovined]

Hello just wanted to say thanks to everyone who is providing valuable info in this thread. I recently acquired a BVM-20F1U with 43000 hours on it and it is simply the best display but am having an issue with it and also have a question regarding S-video.

The issue I am having is that I have almost all my consoles working properly via scart to BNC to the PVM but my consolized MVS appears to be having an issue as the image appears out of sync



I purchase all my cables from retro console accessories but it seems the neo geo is not quite right. Any suggestions on how to correct this?

As for S-video I know Fudoh has indicated that you need an additional input board but they seem impossible to get a hold of. Is there ANY way to use this cable:



to hook up to a standard PVM-20F1U that has the standard two input boards (SDI and RGB)?

[niall]

If anyone has any photos of their BVM D20F1U setup running any VGA source, care to share it or PM?

Here are a few shots of my pair of BVM-D20F1A - your post was the excuse I needed to figure this out. I needed to use an Extron RGB203Rxi to adjust horizontal position a few lines up and the BVM-D kicks over into interlaced mode and you get a fuzzy mess. Once you lock it in it's stunning though: 640x480 then I skipped 720x480 and went straight to 1280x720 Glad I finally spent the time to get this working!

Extron is converting RGBHV to RGBS - I've tried with a T-connector but had no luck. The signal's there, but it's having trouble locking onto sync. PC -> Extron Crosspoint -> Extron RGB -> Extron Crosspoint -> BVM so Sync is clean, but yeah it's having trouble. RGBS suits me fine.

Curiously, the BVM-Ds report the signal as being 575/50i, but it's definitely 60Hz (Extron confirms) and 1280x720 - BDM-D20F1_A_ was an Australian release for southern hemisphere magnetics, so perhaps the firmware was expecting Australian SD/HD signals and just reports it wrong?

iPhone5 camera, bad focus etc. but you get the idea - it's stunning in person:

Spoiler

Both sets have some issues, one more so than the other - suspect the deflection boards need a few caps replaced. Same for my pair of BVM-20F1Es, both are unplayable but one warms up after about 20-30 mins and is perfect (though the previous owner screwed up the tube by sticking gaffa tape on the glass (he thought it was dead and needed a new flyback: the tube is now useless as there's a 4" smear of chemical damage to the glass grrrr), so I need to swap boards around all 4 to isolate whether it's the analog input or deflection boards as I suspect.

Any requests let me know - definitely grab a BVM-D if you ever see one!

[BazookaBen]

If you have a decent gaming PC, you should see how 2560x1440i looks on the BVM (same timings as 720p). If that win XP machine is all you have, you probably won't be playing many games at that resolution, but I'd really be interested in seeing something like Witcher 3 at 1440i on one.

You'd add the resolution to your driver with this program:

http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Threa ... tility-CRU

[wyatt8740]

Any idea where I can get convergence (permalloy) strips for adjusting convergence of my PVM-20L5?
I have convergence issues, but only on the left hand side of the screen.

Click the image for the full resolution.


As far as I can tell, the way to fix this is with convergence strips, because it's not effecting the entire monitor, only this side. But I can't find the damn things anywhere!

Their use is described here:
http://techgoregalore.blogspot.com/2012 ... niton.html

Anyway, please let me know if you have any suggestions for obtaining them, or know another way of adjusting it. Thanks!

I figured it would happen sooner or later. Goodwill had way more CRT's than they could every hope to sell. I wish they'd still take in Trinitrons. Guess this means I'll never spot a PC CRT there ever again too.

I get CRT's from HAMfests (HAM radio conventions). Try those!

http://www.avsforum.com/goodwill-doesnt ... d-crt-tvs/

Looking beyond people who only have $5 or $10 to spend on a TV, maybe there are hipsters out there playing classic video games on a CRTs because it’s cool—zero display lag is perfect for Pac Man—and perhaps someday CRTs will once again be sought-after, and considered vintage. Somehow, I doubt it, but you never know what will catch on.

Damn hipsters!

haha! looks like we are hipsters without even knowing

I kinda think some of us are hipsters because we praise trinitrons above all - ignoring that some other shadow mask TV's are extremely good, but following the crowd who thinks trinitrons are the only CRT's worth preserving (see the other quote).

I have another broadcast monitor, a panasonic-branded shadow mask one. Model number is BT-H1390YN. Here's how A Link to the Past looks over RGB on it (again, click image for full size):


I actually think this looks closer to an arcade CRT than my 20L5 (which still looks awesome in it's own way, I will not deny that. Click image to see full size):



I'll admit the size difference may play a role. However, I really really think that shadow masks get a bad rap because a lot of cheapo manufacturers made shadow mask TV's. But that doesn't mean there cannot be nice ones.

Note that the second image was taken later in my quest, as evidenced by the shield and the Titan's Glove on Link's hand.

[bobrocks95]

Any idea where I can get convergence (permalloy) strips for adjusting convergence of my PVM-20L5?
I have convergence issues, but only on the left hand side of the screen.

Click the image for the full resolution.


As far as I can tell, the way to fix this is with convergence strips, because it's not effecting the entire monitor, only this side. But I can't find the damn things anywhere!

Their use is described here:
http://techgoregalore.blogspot.com/2012 ... niton.html

Anyway, please let me know if you have any suggestions for obtaining them, or know another way of adjusting it. Thanks!

As I learned from someone else in this thread, http://arcadecup.com/ has them available under the Misc section. I would say that's a very minor convergence problem though, so it may not be possible to get just right- then again, I'm no expert and it can't hurt.