Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Chogenki]

Hi, everyone
I.m baty from France so first of all sorry for my english.
I recently purchase a pgm 200r1e and i've got a message in the right up corner of the screen which is SUPPRES and i can't manage to make it disapear.
I couldn't find any information on the web that's why i'm here.
If somebody can help me it would Be very Nice.
Thanks.

[FriendofSonic]

Hi,

My friend is having an issue with 20L5 which happens with composite, S-video and Component. The picture rolls horizontally and vertically very quickly. It almost looks like a sync issue (with no green tint) but I thought with non-RGB sources, this does not pose an issue. We've messed around with the settings and have no idea. Menu does not shake when the monitor is being given an input

[Gered]

Recently got a PVM 20L2MD (manufacture date, January 2005). Had it shipped to me as I haven't had much luck finding PVMs locally other then a 14M4U in great condition. Looking for 20 inch models, I either find them in terrible condition, or the seller is asking far too much... or the latest where the seller stopped responding to me when I asked to come by and test it out.

Anyway, ended up buying one I found from some medical equipment surplus place on DotMed and decided to suck it up a bit and hold my nose while paying the cost for shipping a 72 lbs. monitor across the length of North America (does that make me foolish? yeah probably, heh). Amazingly, it survived shipping (via UPS even!) without any additional cosmetic damage that I can see other then one of the handle thingies on the front by the controls got broken off. Here's an imgur album showing the package and monitor condition post-UPS-delivery.

However, there's a weird geometry issue that wasn't really apparent in the photos I got the seller to take of the screen while showing something on the display (only so much they are willing to hook up to it and take photos of unfortunately).



So, I guess the main things to note from this picture:

1. The word "Deflection" at the top left while I'm in the service menu is warped. Kind of confused on this one as I would've thought the entire contents on the display would be warped and as you can see the 240p test suite grid underneath the menu text is not warped in the same way at all.

2. If I use the service menu to adjust the horizontal position and move it over to the right (since as you can see there's a gap at the right edge of the display) even by just 1 from where it is shown in the photo above, the menu text disappears completely. However, the content coming in over the RGB video signal appears unaffected and I can keep adjusting the horizontal position even though the menu text is gone... however, I have to do it blind at this point. Even if I exit out of that service menu entry and go back to the main menu, the menu text remains completely hidden.

(Luckily if the menu text disappears and I get "lost" in the service menu if I try to keep adjusting things, I can just switch to another input where the menu is still visible and do a factory reset)

3. Related to #2 above, if I adjust the horizontal position and move it over to the left instead of the right, the warping of the top menu text disappears and it looks normal once I move it over enough (by 5-10 or so).

Anyone have any ideas if there's anything I could do about this? I'm guessing not, and it's also quite possible this is some kind of age-related damage or something related to being jostled about during shipping. Could just be something I have to live with.

Otherwise it appears to work fine. Can't seem to fully get rid of some of the other visible geometry issues, which is kind of unfortunate for such a recently manufactured display... oh well, just have to continue keeping an eye out for another 20" monitor locally.

Also, anyone happen to have a copy of the service manual for the 20L2MD?

[Ed Oscuro]

You're in Toronto and can't find any CRTs, really? You should go pester those guys who have a HD capable Ikegami set (it was on eBay, last I checked), talk them down from their $5600 first offer price. It's a big city so you should have a fair number of options, if there's any electronics recyclers nearby.

Anyhow, I've noticed the OSD doing strange things during adjustments on my own 20L2, like dropping out when pushing h/v resize along. Doesn't seem too problematic to just pull back from the point when it becomes unreadable. I don't know why this happens either.

As a last resort you can always try writing down your settings, as a backup, and then executing a factory reset, and see if that gives you a better baseline. It probably won't change anything, but you never know.

[Gered]

You're in Toronto and can't find any CRTs, really?

In my post I never said I couldn't find them. What I said was:

Looking for 20 inch models, I either find them in terrible condition, or the seller is asking far too much... or the latest where the seller stopped responding to me when I asked to come by and test it out.

Anyway, as I knew was going to happen once I had one shipped... someone posted a PVM 2030 on Craigslist this morning. Kind of an older model with a bit lower TVL but still would've been worth checking out. Might still go and see it. Wish I'd been a bit more patient now, but hindsight is always 20/20 I guess. Oh well. Mostly what I see available around here is 14" or 8" CRTs (picked up my 14M4U via Kijiji). Not particularly looking at consumer sets, but every little bit I do take a look at what's available.

Regardless, I noticed last night that I could press the Underscan button while adjusting the service menu when the OSD text disappears and it comes back while in the underscan mode. So, if I get lost in the service menu at least I have a much more convenient way to recover from where I was (and I don't lose any settings this way).

After I initially got it and powered it on while inspecting it, etc. I did check the current values in the service menu and wrote them down before doing a factory reset. Basically nothing was changed from the factory defaults though and it didn't fix any of the issues I've observed.

[Ed Oscuro]

From what I've seen, the 2030 (and all models of that '80s vintage) puts out a rather poor image in comparison with the newer models. Not only this, but it has a non-standard RGB connector, which you'd have to get / make an adaptor for. Pinout (and a screen photo) here. I'd stick with the L2 and try to fix it up / tweak it some more. Having to do a bit of work on the geometry settings is totally normal.

The main motherboard's a simple all-in-one deal so you can always crack the back off and look for any obvious signs of use / degradation. You should view the casing / connection points internally, anyway, to ensure that nothing's obviously damaged or knocked out of place (like any magnetic strips glued on the back of the tube). The back of this monitor lifts straight off in a single piece and you don't have to worry about damaging the internals, just the metal flanges / connecting points on the case.

Now that you've done a factory reset, the good news is that you can count out bad user tweaks, and you know what the "worst case" look of this tube is - which isn't actually that bad.

You'll be a better judge of this with the monitor right in front of you, but it looks like the first thing to roughly correct is H POS and then look at pincushion distortions. Beyond this it actually doesn't look too bad, but you'll have to see where those corrections leave you.

[kamiboy]

I had a 2530 once. best looking CRT I ever had.

[Gered]

Definitely would rather stick with a newer display (late 90's onward if possible, preferably 2000+), and I don't relish the idea of having to do geometry adjustments with the back open and a screwdriver with those older models. On the L2 I've mostly fixed up the main geometry issues. Still not perfect though, need to have another crack at it. Also there's some minor convergence issues in the top-left corner around where the red/white grid lines meet up but after having played some games on this for a while I find I don't notice it.

I'll open it up and take a look see if there's anything obvious as you suggest, thanks. My main concern after noticing the OSD display issues was that it was some telltale sign of something about ready to fail (I guess it could be still), but I guess if you've noticed similar issues with your L2, perhaps it's not the end of the world for it quite yet.

[vinnyguy]

I had a 20M2U and the word 'DEFLECTION' would appear all warped when I adjusted the horizontal size and position. It looked just the same as in your picture, sometimes more or less distorted depending on how I'd adjusted the screen.

[thebeautifulones]

I have an L2MD as well, and those exact same things happen to mine in the menus. I picked mine up, wasn't shipped to me or jostled, which might give you some peace of mind too.

[Shoegaze]

I hope this hasn't been asked a million times, but is there a guide anywhere for the PVM 2530's service menu? I'm looking at one tomorrow, and I'd like to be able to check the test patterns and clocked hours without wasting too much of the seller's time.

I was able to find the basic user manual, but it doesn't even specify how to get into the menu, let alone getting to any useful information. Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction?

[tormented]

Finally got some photos of my BVM-20F1 with my new camera. Now it's time for some Mega Drive.

where did you buy it?

[utanför sverige antar jag? edit: läste bakåt lite. känner du till fler bvm's och pvm's till salu inom sverige så hojta gärna till ]

[nakedarthur]

*deleted*

[Ed Oscuro]

I have an L2MD as well, and those exact same things happen to mine in the menus. I picked mine up, wasn't shipped to me or jostled, which might give you some peace of mind too.

Thanks for adding your own experience, it helps add up a detailed picture of what to expect with this model.

So far, amongst three (or maybe four?) 20L2/MD units they all show the same behavior in the OSD. I don't think this is even limited to just this model, but I think that's a good sign there's not much to worry about.

[korpse413]

When shopping for a BVM D20F1U what do I need to consider, besides hours / condition for playing games ranging from 240p, up to 720p / 1080?

The control boards BKM-10R and BKM-15R work for any BVM model? Or is one better suited with another? Which one should I pair it with?

Also regarding the optional boards in the back, is the stock, nonremovable BNC card good enough for 480p+ signals? Do I just get Component to BNC convertors or something? Fudoh mentioned that there was an optional SPI board in the D20's (not sure what this card does... my only experience is with a BVM1911 that handles 240p like a champion with scart BNC. Looking at models online some cards are removed by the seller - I want to make sure what I need to be looking for.

Thanks.

[Fudoh]

The standard control board is the 10R (the one with the PCMCIA slot). I don't know if a 15R will work on a D20. I think they were introduced with the A series.

You don't need anything else (well except your Scart to BNC adapter for RGB sources and a bunch of BNC/RCA adapter plugs for component sources). The stock board will accept 480p YUV and RGsB and RGBs, no RGBHV though.

Other boards like the D20 or D21 provide you with a composite video decover and additional YUV/RGsB ports. And SDI of course, but you don't need that.

[nissling]

Time to dig out my XRGB-Mini and giving it a shot with my HDM-3830. I'm feeding it with an NTSC NES with RGB mod. For HDMI to YPbPr conversion I'm using a HD Fury Gamer 2 Component. Now things are getting serious, although I will say that taking screenshots of a BVM is much easier than this beast.

Spoiler

where did you buy it?

[utanför sverige antar jag? edit: läste bakåt lite. känner du till fler bvm's och pvm's till salu inom sverige så hojta gärna till ]

Swedish message: Köpte den från Japan om du inte läste det, men jag kan höra av mig om jag hittar något.

[QXC]

So far, amongst three (or maybe four?) 20L2/MD units they all show the same behavior in the OSD. I don't think this is even limited to just this model, but I think that's a good sign there's not much to worry about.

I've got some 20L2s and a 20M2 and they will all do this depending on where the raster is. It's not an issue as long as your input isn't a weird size. My PC RGB output requires me to drop the raster size to basically 0 vertical, and when you shrink the screen this much the edge of the picture will warp a little bit. Not as bad as the menu warps sometimes, but a similar shape.

But no, yours isn't damaged. I suspect they did this fresh from the factory.

[qmish]

Sorry if there is better thread to ask.

But. Anyone with DoDonPachi DaiOuJou, camera (reflex or not, just good enough to capture in quality) and nice CRT setup...
Could you please take some photos of Stage 1? The reason besides just interest is that i'm under impression that DOJ's "night city lights" on Stage 1 (those buildings surrounded by yellow lights in the very start of stage, and buildings after that "spinning" thing which you destroy...buildings with words in japanese on them) look "glowing" on CRT, while on MAME/PS2 with LCD or on iOS port - that's not happening.

[Gered]

So far, amongst three (or maybe four?) 20L2/MD units they all show the same behavior in the OSD. I don't think this is even limited to just this model, but I think that's a good sign there's not much to worry about.

I've got some 20L2s and a 20M2 and they will all do this depending on where the raster is. It's not an issue as long as your input isn't a weird size. My PC RGB output requires me to drop the raster size to basically 0 vertical, and when you shrink the screen this much the edge of the picture will warp a little bit. Not as bad as the menu warps sometimes, but a similar shape.

But no, yours isn't damaged. I suspect they did this fresh from the factory.

Great, that's reassuring to hear. Thanks to everyone who has an L2 for mentioning whether they had the same issue or not.

[BazookaBen]

Time to dig out my XRGB-Mini and giving it a shot with my HDM-3830. I'm feeding it with an NTSC NES with RGB mod. For HDMI to YPbPr conversion I'm using a HD Fury Gamer 2 Component. Now things are getting serious, although I will say that taking screenshots of a BVM is much easier than this beast.

Looks great, but are HDM's not compatible with 15hz or something? Trying to understand why you wouldn't hook up the NES directly.

[nissling]

Exactly. The HDM series are dedicated to 31KHz and higher. Back then (late 80s and early 90s) there was basically no market for multi sync monitor of such kind. I can understand that to some this defeats the purpose of playing retro games on a CRT since you have to process the signal this way, but considering the HDMs being so unique and rare I figured it was worth a shot. After all, this is from Sony's first generation of high def equipment.

1080i look *fantastic* on the HDM-3830. Warm and sharp with a characteristic atmosphere that has to be seen in real life to understand it. I'm currently working on a video review of it.

[Fudoh]

Is your HDM 1080i ONLY ? I assumed it was SD/ED and 1080i capable, just not 720p compatible, since the corresponding consumer models were.

[nissling]

It can do 480p and 576p as well but it truly shines with 1080i sources. For ED I'd say it performs excellent if quality of the signal is above average. Very suited for Sega Dreamcast to say the least.

[Fudoh]

If it does 480p you should take a few screenshots with 480p from the Mini along with maxed out scanline density. Should look considerably better than the 1080i snapshots you took above.

[nissling]

Can give it a try when I get the time but I do prefer 1080i over 480p on the HDM. There's just nothing like it although when I tried my Mega Drive I felt some scanlines would've been nice. The Nes can look great both with and without imo.

It's also very difficult to capture correct white balance of this monitor. Little Mac doesn't have that green touch in real life for instance...

[Fudoh]

Can give it a try when I get the time but I do prefer 1080i over 480p on the HDM.

absolutely, but it would be nice to see the difference to your 240p BVM snapshots and 480p with strong scanlines should be the closest you can get.

[FinalBaton]

Can give it a try when I get the time but I do prefer 1080i over 480p on the HDM.

absolutely, but it would be nice to see the difference to your 240p BVM snapshots and 480p with strong scanlines should be the closest you can get.

Yes, would like to see this as well.

[Einzelherz]

See Nissling, this is what happens when you buy something awesome--everyone wants to see it!

[nissling]

Only thing is that I didn't buy it, I got it for free. No kidding. Inital price was 70-75K USD.

This very specific monitor was imported by HD Divine in the early 90s during the development of HD broadcasts. Later on HD Divine was bought up by Teracom (owner of TV network in Sweden) but sometime in the early 00s it was replaced by later BVMs. An audio engineer at SVT (Swedish television, public service) thought it was a better idea that he kept it rather than seeing it trashed. He also had the HDM-2830 which he later gave away as well, but the last owner of that monitor passed away in late 2011 due to a traffic accident.