Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[cicada88]

I get that you don't care about points in Gimmick! I'm asking where to get big points on a no death run. You have to die in order to "cheese" lives or milk points.

[BIL]

Hmm, that is interesting. So scoring is viable in a one-life run? If that's the case, it'd make sense to consider one life = one credit, for ultimate hardcore Gimmick superplay purposes. (working title "THE STRANGE MEMORIES OF DEATH Gimmick!"

I've been a bit busy lately - quite a few recent posts here I'd like to discuss in more detail. For now though, I'm wracking my brain trying to recall another good game where restricting to the no-miss enabled a bit of scoreplay. Maybe it actually was Gimmick. 3:

[Sumez]

Theoretically you can still score endlessly, since jumping on a star gives you 10 points - you'll see speedrunners grinding on the side of the star as they ride it to jam up their score and control powerup drops.

But I definitely agree that no-miss is the way to go for Gimmick if you wanna play it like a pro! I sure can't.

STRANGE MEMORIES OF DEATH

Such a good track

[BIL]

Aha, thought there'd be a catch. Reminds me of Wild Guns (SFC), where even if the milkable bosses were fixed, you could still grind out 10pt lassos until the counterstop.

I guess in these cases, you could impose a time limit on the run itself to curb milking. But now we're getting a bit out there.

Gimmick is one of those console action games where the most superficial of tweaks would instantly raise the pressure to coinop levels. Just a time limit would put a fire under players looking to get all the treasures and reach the TLB. At the same time though, I find that hybrid of hardcore platforming and breezy no-pressure exploration/experimentation key to its identity. Very Rondo in that regard.

STRANGE MEMORIES OF DEATH

Such a good track

Indeed - a shame it went unused. Neat title, too. I had to look it up when I saw it, apparently it's a Phillip K. Dick reference. The tracknames are pretty cool overall - some are oddly dark and poignant when contrasted with the game's whimsical premise. Identity Believer is rather Blade Runner/Androids n' Electric Sheep.

(super fun fact: I've toyed with renaming this thread Strange Memories of Death: Sidescrolling Action Monogatari - but once I'm used to a thread name, no matter how spartan, I like to leave it! Takes me like a year to switch avatars, bahaha)

[Sumez]

The concept of score in console platformer is a strange thing indeed, and it is really sad how it evolved.
In the NES days almost every game had a score tally whether it made sense or not, as a tradition lifted from arcade games. Mega Man 1 is the most obvious example - even listing the value of killing the boss whenever you start a stage. But for obvious reason, scoring in this game is as broken as it gets. Score based on random drops from enemies, and endless respawning enemies with no time limit. Obviously the implementation was lazy, and it makes sense that none of the sequels had it.

More curious is when the game has a sort of score system implemented. It's nice to get a score bonus based on remaining time, but if it's dwarfed by what you can get by grinding somewhere else, then what is the point? Castlevania has a pretty nice mechanic where you can get big points by killing multiple enemies with one subweapon. But the mere fact that you can keep picking up the same 1up every time you die (same as in Ninja Gaiden and many other console titles) makes it easy to just repeat doing that in any area with a 1up. It is really easy to exploit this mechanic using he holy water on the first stage where the zombies keep spawning, and on the second loop you get a 1up there, making even "Vs. Castlevania" easy to score endlessly in.

Eventually, score count in games like the Super Mario Bros. titles, etc. ended up teaching kids that score in video games is pointless. Imagine if these influential title all had well balanced scoring systems - the world could have been a very different one today.

[Shoryukev]

Gimmick seems like a pretty interesting game. It's in my top 3 (along with Metal Storm and Gargoyle's Quest 2) that I still need to add to my collection. It's a shame it never came to the US because it looks fantastic, sunsoft had some great games back then.

[Sumez]

Gargoyle's quest game is a good game for sure, but it doesn't hold a candle to the other two. You can safely give it the lowest priority of those three.

[Sumez]

Spoiler

[CIT]

The concept of score in console platformer is a strange thing indeed, and it is really sad how it evolved.

However, in the tail end of 2D console action platformers scoring systems were actually perfected. I love the Adventure of Little Ralph's combo system and the fact that the game options let you view in-depth statistics of your performance in every stage, items collected, etc.

Connecting a risk/reward scoring system with in-game shopping (à la Shovel Knight) also works quite well. In the case of Hard Corps Uprising the game will even register repetitive inputs and eventually freeze the score counter if it notices you are milking a pattern.

[cicada88]

I'm not really trying to turn Gimmick into a high score competition. More that I just want make a no death run more stylish by hitting all the major point bonuses that seem somewhat hidden. The most points possible in a quick, thorough run without intentionally milking anything.


Good suggestion on the star and enemy riding where you get extra points! I never really noticed that you got them for being on the star. Even this is somewhat cryptic though, don't you only get points if you're on the very edge of the enemy or something like that?

[BIL]

Astro Port's Valken-esque Gigantic Army (PC) has one of the better inbuilt scoring systems I've seen from a sidescroller. Simple, but perfectly thought out, and totally intuitive: complete the stage with as many seconds remaining as possible, while staying at max HP so items convert to lucrative points. Monster end-stage multiplier for remaining seconds + remaining HP. You can technically milk respawning zako, whose presence enhances the grim battleground aesthetic... however, unlike detouring for extra items, they're quite literally not worth your time. No checkpoints to exploit either - dead is dead. The bonafide mecha handling elevates the instantly graspable "go fast, dodge bullets, kill 'em all" into a real test of piloting skill.

Great game even ignoring score entirely, but the longevity it holds for hardcore fans of heavy metal sidescrolling is immense. Kyper's 18.6m Insane run is a beauty. (as nearly always with Astro Port, "Insane" = "Gamer." It's not the Nightmare/XTREEM experience its name suggests. ;3 )

[Sumez]

Even this is somewhat cryptic though, don't you only get points if you're on the very edge of the enemy or something like that?

Basically, just landing on an enemy or star gives you points (it's very little though, so I'm not sure if it helps making your game more stylish), while staying on it doesn't add any more.
I'm not sure how easy it is with enemies but if you keep just slightly walking off the front of the star as you're riding it, you'll land on it repeatedly causing it to add points continously.

I think a no-miss run of Gimmick is already incredibly impressive. That said, a speedrun of the game is one of the most beautiful things ever.

[FinalBaton]

Kyper's 18.6m Insane run is a beauty. (as nearly always with Astro Port, "Insane" = "Gamer." It's not the Nightmare/XTREEM experience its name suggests. ;3 )

That was a damn awesome run to watch. a truly great mix of speed, defence and POWER

[BIL]

a truly great mix of speed, defence and POWER

Hell yeah, exactly. Excellence of aggression.

[FinalBaton]

^^^^^^
I love that the time bonus forces you to make choices :
do I kill all enemies on this screen(points), or do I zip by to shave a couple seconds on the timer(also points).

The way this player handles it is majestic as fuck. obliterates stuff that can quickly be done with but knows when to keep going if an enemy or two won't give more points than the time saved to avoid them.
I think this was one of my favourite, if not the favourite aspect of his run.
apart from what I said in my previous post.

[FinalBaton]

Holy shit, the points management for item drops in Gimmick is insane (don't know the game well so I had no idea about this). In a speed run this becomes a gargantuan obstacle, haha

[__SKYe]

It's been a while since my last post.

I've recently replayed Kaizou Chounin Shubibinman Zero (it was released on the SuFamicom through Satellaview), and almost got a 1 life clear on my first try in months, but lost a life on the second to last boss.

For those not familiar with it, it is a part of the Kaizou Chounin Shubibinman series, which consist of another 2 games for the PC Engine. Both PCE games are sort of MegaMan clones, and although the 2nd game is decent, the 1st is pretty bad. This game on the other hand, is actually more akin to a beat-em-up.

It still plays (and looks) like a platformer (and there's a fair bit of platforming involved), but isn't quite like the typical platformer.
There are 2 characters, which are locked to each of the 2 players, meaning if you want to play with the girl, you have to start a 2P game, let the 1P die and continue playing as 2P solo.
both characters actually play differently: the guy (1P) attacks with punches (which is quite similar to a beat-em-up), and the girl (2P) attacks with a sword (which makes it look more like a typical action platformer).
They both have a similar charge attack a la MegaMan (which in the 1P case, looks very similar to a Hadouken), but the 1P has a special attack that can be used by inputting the Shoryuken motion, and not surprisingly, it is pretty much a Shoryuken.

I've only beaten the game with 1P for now, but the game is, for the most part, easy. The harder parts are the second to last boss, and the final boss, which has two forms (the last one going full Contra).
One reason the game becomes, again, for the most part, so easy is because the shoryuken move of 1P is ridiculously overpowered, especially against bosses. You can beat some of the bosses with 2 shoryukens alone.
I do believe that the game would be quite a bit harder to beat without relying on it, and by extension, I assume playing on the 2P side will be indeed harder, because the 2P doesn't have it.

It also has a sort of RPG like health bar, in that, when you achieve certain scores, the life bar grows by 1 bar (and restores your HP to boot).
Score plays a good part here, as almost every enemy drops an item when defeated, that gives a certain amount of points, so getting a good score is not only good because of the life bar extensions, but you also get ranked against predefined hiscores at the end of the game. I got rank #14, and honestly I don't know how you can get much higher than that.
Perhaps there's some strategy on how to make enemies drop more valuable items, but I'm don't really know. Also enemies don't respawn after you beat them, so I assume there's little chance to milk for points (except for bosses perhaps?).

All in all, it is a really enjoyable game, and I intend to get the 1LC, and eventually beat it on the 2P side as well.

I love that the time bonus forces you to make choices :
do I kill all enemies on this screen(points), or do I zip by to shave a couple seconds on the timer(also points).

You most likely know them, but have you tried the Megaman Zero games (especially the first 2 games, because on the later ones they removed the rank)?

In those games you have a rank, which can go from S to F (I believe, could be wrong since it has been a while since I last played them), and you're ranked after each mission based on a few conditions (like time taken to finish, enemies killed, damage taken, cyber elves used, etc).
Maintaining an A or S rank gets pretty though, pretty fast, but to me also makes it pretty enjoyable (although the rank is one point of criticism I always hear about when people talk about these games, aside from the difficulty, of course).
Also, if you face a boss with an A or S rank, it will use a special attack against you, that otherwise he won't (if you have a lower rank). In Megaman Zero 2, you can actually get a special EX attack by defeating bosses with a high rank.

Another thing I love about these games, is that they can get as easy or as hard as you want.
If you want easy, level up your weapon (mainly Z-Saber for me) until you can do charge attacks, and use charge+elemental chip against bosses, and you'll crush them pretty easily. Couple this with the life extending cyber elves, the sub-tanks, the damage-halving cyber elf and the one that covers all spikes in the game, and you get so overpowered that pretty much the only way to die is to fall into a pit.
On the other hand, if you want hard, play in Hard mode (meaning no charged attacks, in turn meaning no elemental attacks), and don't use any cyber elf. Then you have a measly 16HP bar and take 50% more damage than in Normal mode. It gets very brutal very fast.

They are still one of my favourite games of all time (especially the first 2 games), and are the epitome of the MegaMan series, both in terms of smooth controls and fantastic bosses.
You could say that MMZ1 was the game that showed me just how brutal games can be. It was the first time I played a game, and was left dumbstruck at how can even the 1st level proper (not the intro stage, but the 1st stage after you return to the base) be so damn hard.

And even after all this time, Phantom on MMZ1 is pretty though to beat, and In my opinion his stage is actually very memorable, as unlike every game ever, you fight the boss at the start of the stage, and not at the end.
And never any other stage as made me fall to my doom so many times.

[FinalBaton]

You most likely know them, but have you tried the Megaman Zero games (especially the first 2 games, because on the later ones they removed the rank)?

I have the first one here on my shelf! But I'm actually having a hard time even beating the second stage (the first time you can choose your stage, I mean). This has me at a loss, since I consider myself a pretty decent gamer. but I swear, I can't do it! it's just too damn hard

Thanks for the strategy though! I will grind and level up my saber. But if I go in a level and head back, won't it count as a failed mission? I don't want that! Unless you're suggesting that I grind and then go for the boss in one go, without getting out of the stage to heal?

[mamboFoxtrot]

I played SFC Shabibbyman in emulator once. I really like the control and feel of everything (the hadouken is super-fun), but yeah, it was pretty damn easy, and I didn't even know about the Shoryuken. Granted, I didn't make it to the last area in the game; I think I just made a save-state at some point and said "I'll finish this later", and then didn't.

(as nearly always with Astro Port, "Insane" = "Gamer."

Must be. I gave Gigantic Army a half-hearted shake recently and breezed through Normal mode, and I didn't even remember that there was a shield. I was also playing on a 360 controller, so with the analogue stick I couldn't even dash for shit.
Kind left me wondering what all the bitching in the reviews about the time limit and other "it's too haarrrrd" comments. They must be complaining about the difficulty of getting all the achievements on the other difficulty modes, I guess.

I will grind and level up my saber. But if I go in a level and head back, won't it count as a failed mission? I don't want that! Unless you're suggesting that I grind and then go for the boss in one go, without getting out of the stage to heal?

In MMZ1, can't you just walk outside the hub-area and find some enemies to grind without needing to actually accept a mission? I seem to remember doing that, but it's been a while.
Speaking of charge attacks in MMZ, I like that they let you use one weapon and charge the other in those games. Always bugged me that you couldn't in the X series, especially in X4 where it really reduces the usefulness of the Charge Shot Stockpiler upgrade.

[FinalBaton]

In MMZ1, can't you just walk outside the hub-area and find some enemies to grind without needing to actually accept a mission? I seem to remember doing that, but it's been a while.

might be! I haven't spent much time with the game yet, so some things still escape me
I'll try that, thanks

[BIL]

Must be. I gave Gigantic Army a half-hearted shake recently and breezed through Normal mode, and I didn't even remember that there was a shield. I was also playing on a 360 controller, so with the analogue stick I couldn't even dash for shit.

Even "Insane" isn't too hard, but you'll definitely need to use the shield a bit. ;3 I've only played a handful of AP's games, but they seem pretty consistent about hitting the 8/16-bit veteran's "just right thanks" at max difficulty level. Lowers are more for getting used to the system and level layouts, in my experience.

I think the TLB only shows up on Insane, but it's been so damn long since I bothered with other difficulties I can't quite recall.

Kind left me wondering what all the bitching in the reviews about the time limit and other "it's too haarrrrd" comments. They must be complaining about the difficulty of getting all the achievements on the other difficulty modes, I guess.

Could be, but honestly, nothing surprises me any more. 3;

[EmperorIng]

Skye, there is actually a third Shubibinman for the PC Engine CD, called Kaizo Choujin Shubibinman 3: Ikai no Princess, which is an action platformer.

Since you seem to be a fan of the series, it might be worth emulating. I say emulate, because it feels like the game is tragically unfinished (this post being still somewhat high from the initial impression). While it initially wowed me with some great graphics and setpieces, the extreme lack of difficulty, lack of balance (your Shubi beam kills everything almost instantaneously), glitches*, and short length make me feel like there was the kernel of a great game that sadly never revealed itself.

*or programming oversights. Meeting a boss who stops to give a long monologue? Just kill him in the middle of his speech while he stands there defenseless. The final boss does this too, but he still anemically attacks you while he's talking, making it an awkward affair.

[BIL]

God, I love it when you can just murder a boss to stop them from prattling on.

[BrianC]

God, I love it when you can just murder a boss to stop them from prattling on.

That is also why the fight against The Blob in the X-Men arcade game is so hilarious. "No one moves the..."

[Sumez]

Skye, there is actually a third Shubibinman for the PC Engine CD, called Kaizo Choujin Shubibinman 3: Ikai no Princess, which is an action platformer.

Came here to say this. I think the third game is pretty weak though. The second one is where it's all at. I believe that's the one that also got an international release as "shockman", too.

I never heard of the Satellaview game for Super Famicom before though. I looked it up, and it looks pretty damn awesome!

[__SKYe]

Skye, there is actually a third Shubibinman for the PC Engine CD, called Kaizo Choujin Shubibinman 3: Ikai no Princess, which is an action platformer.

Came here to say this. I think the third game is pretty weak though. The second one is where it's all at. I believe that's the one that also got an international release as "shockman", too.

Thank you, I didn't know there was a third one. I'll check it out.

Since you seem to be a fan of the series, it might be worth emulating.

Oh mind you, it's not that I'm a big fan of the series, I just ended up checking them out because of their similarites with the MegaMan series, and although the 2nd game is decent (but that slow, unresponsive jump though...), they never actually get anywhere close to any of the MegaMan (and similar) games.
Perhaps ironically, is that the one they didn't quite attempt to copy so much (the one for the Satellaview), despite the obvious Street Fighter references, is the one I think is the most fun. Hell I'd say it is better by a landslide.

I never heard of the Satellaview game for Super Famicom before though. I looked it up, and it looks pretty damn awesome!

It does indeed, but most importantly, it plays good too (unlike the previous games in the series).

There's a nice little homage to Cho Aniki in the 1st stage too. And for those of you who think the game's too cute, behold the last boss.

I played SFC Shabibbyman in emulator once. I really like the control and feel of everything (the hadouken is super-fun), but yeah, it was pretty damn easy, and I didn't even know about the Shoryuken. Granted, I didn't make it to the last area in the game; I think I just made a save-state at some point and said "I'll finish this later", and then didn't.

Yeah, it's pretty easy overall.
The later bosses, and the recurring boss Kage (that you fight 4 times throughout the game) are pretty much where the challenge comes from.
The shoryuken is sometimes a bit hard to do on a gamepad, but if you do the motion and attack something with it, and keep the attack button down, you'll do obscene amounts of damage with it.
The last boss' 2 phases, in particular, are where the game really kicks it up a notch (or two).
It's also worth noting that while the Hadouken is all nice and dandy, you cannot move while charging it, so it's not that reliable. It does come in handy in a few bosses, though.

Thanks for the strategy though! I will grind and level up my saber. But if I go in a level and head back, won't it count as a failed mission? I don't want that! Unless you're suggesting that I grind and then go for the boss in one go, without getting out of the stage to heal?

No, like mamboFoxtrot said, after the intro mission, if you leave the room where Ciel is and go into the teleporter, you can go back to the place where you began the game.
There, the best place to level up the weapons are those little silk nests that spit spiders every once in a while. Just destroy the spiders, scroll the nest off screen and come back and it will spit them again (you can also wait for it to spit them, but it's faster to scroll it offscreen).
You do need to level each weapon independently, but honestly, the saber is all you need.

I have the first one here on my shelf! But I'm actually having a hard time even beating the second stage (the first time you can choose your stage, I mean). This has me at a loss, since I consider myself a pretty decent gamer. but I swear, I can't do it! it's just too damn hard

You can't use elemental attacks against him yet though, but he only has 1 bar of HP (later bosses have a full 3 bars -- white, blue and yellow), but if you want a easier time, level up the saber, and hit him with charged attacks.
He'll go down in 3~4 hits.
He's not too hard, after you get used to him (like every other boss). I guess the thing take sort of panics people a little, is that you only have one minute to beat him, and perhaps, players noticing that Zero has little life, try to attack from afar with the Buster. The problem then, is that you'll be hard pressed to beat him in time then, especially because when he does the attack where he pulls you towards him (which lasts quite a few seconds), you can't hit him with bullets.
So if he rushes you, jump over him and slash him in the back.
If he pull you in, dash in the opposite direction. After he stops pulling you, he'll always dash towards you, so, again, jump over and slash. The other attacks are pretty simple.
Oh, by the way, he'll only come down and electrify the floor, if you have an A or S rank from the intro mission.

One last thing. Do yourself a favour and change your controls to allow firing the sub-weapon by pressing the R button (the default is R+B). This not only makes firing the sub-weapon easier, but also allows you to charge it up (while you keep the R button pressed) while you continue to use the main weapon.
Other than that, on your first playthrough, don't be shy about using cyber-elves, they help tremendously (you do need to get E-Crystals, though). The beauty of the Zero games, in order to get high ranks, and fight bosses at their strongest, you can barely use any cyber-elves. Permanent CE in particular (like health extending, sub-tanks, half-damage, etc) will also permanently affect your rank negatively.

Well, this turned out to be a bloody long post, so I'll stop now.

[Sumez]

Too bad that game never came out on a physical cart. I would love to own it legit.

[mamboFoxtrot]

It's also worth noting that while the Hadouken is all nice and dandy, you cannot move while charging it, so it's not that reliable. It does come in handy in a few bosses, though.

Actually, once your hadouken is charged, you can jump around and keep your charge when you land. I played, like, 75% of the game bunny-hopping around with a charge ready to shred whatever comes out in front of me.

e: you can also "charge" while jumping, so you can jump -> hit with jump kick (keep holding button) -> land and immediately hadouken
The shoryuken really kicks up the game's fun factor. A speedrun of this would be pretty cool-looking, I think.

[NYN]

You most likely know them, but have you tried the Megaman Zero games (especially the first 2 games, because on the later ones they removed the rank)?

Don't go Maverick on me, but I say nay.
The four Zero's are ranked destruction all the way.
But maybe you actually refer to ZX and Advent?

[__SKYe]

Actually, once your hadouken is charged, you can jump around and keep your charge when you land. I played, like, 75% of the game bunny-hopping around with a charge ready to shred whatever comes out in front of me.

e: you can also "charge" while jumping, so you can jump -> hit with jump kick (keep holding button) -> land and immediately hadouken
The shoryuken really kicks up the game's fun factor. A speedrun of this would be pretty cool-looking, I think.

I rarely use Hadoukens, so I didn't know this, thanks for the tip.
But yeah, the Shoryuken is absolutely fantastic (and useful too). I like that playing as player 2 (which doesn't have it) is more akin to playing Hard mode (if there was one). Having the Shoryuken later on makes the playthrough much easier.

Don't go Maverick on me, but I say nay.
The four Zero's are ranked destruction all the way.
But maybe you actually refer to ZX and Advent?

I checked the MMZ wikia and confirmed, and you are absolutely right, my mistake.
It's been a while since I played them, and the reason I was confused, is that I was associating having a high rank with acquiring the EX skills, and as in MMZ4, you only need to play the stages in their hard counterparts (the harsher weather) to get them (no high rank required), so I mistakenly thought they removed the rank.
Though rank did change in MMZ4 as, as you can use the cyber-elf without adverse effects, as long as you don't exceed its max level.