XRGB-3

[Fudoh]

I concur: once you want to use 240p sources WITHOUT scanlines, I wouldn't go with the Edge anymore. I've commented on the DVDO's excessive ringing long enough and nothing has changed about this.

@BuckoA51: have you used the Edge with the SLG3000 ? Would you call the difference to the XRGB so huge, that it's still worth getting both processors ? (again for use with scanlines only)

Just for reference: I'm in the midst of recabling my setup and it includes: a VP50Pro, a Lumagen Radiance, an Optoma HD3000, a Videon Omega HDP, a XRGB-3, a XSelect D4 and two Extron sync interfaces - - all in active use (not all at one, but always a few, depending on the source).

[BuckoA51]

I'd love to give the Lumagen Radiance a try, it's out of my budget at the moment though. The radiance costs more than my TV did even when it was new! I see Lumagen have a cheaper scaler in the works but it has no analogue inputs at all.

I've not got a SLG3000 yet but I am tempted to get one, I do enjoy playing with this stuff, though as discussed, to use the EDGE with it, I'd probably need to go Edge->HD Fury->SLG3000->some sort of conversion back to digital->TV.

Actually, make that Edge->2 way HDMI splitter->HD Fury->SLG3000->some sort of conversion back to digital->TV, since I don't want scanlines on my blu-ray movies or high def games, well apart from Deathsmiles etc I mean come on I know you love your scanlines but do you really want them on Dead Space 2 etc? Actually that might look kind of cool just to try.

Now, that's a lot of hoops to jump through. Though on the flipside you have to jump through a few to get the most out of the XRGB3/DVDO Edge combo, especially if you don't like the XRGB3's deinterlacing (who does?). Going down the Edge+SLG3000 route, in the end you do get a scanline engine that works with everything though, including 720p games like the cave stuff on the 360. Possibly I would not need the last analogue to digital conversion step, but I probably would since my TV's VGA input is never very stable. I already have a HD Fury but most people don't and they aren't exactly cheap. By the time you've bought the HD Fury, a good quality 2 way HDMI splitter and all the necessary cables you may only be a few bucks short of what you would have paid for the XRGB3.

Anyway, I digress, we're going around in circles here, do your research, consider your own equipment, budget and needs and make your own mind up.

[Rock Man]

When you say 640x480 you are using B1 mode right? No point using such a resolution in B0.

Output H/V Pos doesn't work in B1. Scanlines don't work in B0.

Welcome to the world of the XRGB3, all these kinds of problems are completely normal! You'll need to feed the XRGB3 into another videoprocessor such as the Gefen or the DVDO Edge to eliminate them. Either that or use a different display.

In many ways the XRGB3 is hopelessly dated, but as you've seen nothing comes close to it for picture quality.

I always kept the XRGB in B1 mode, I remember that being a crucial point on the forums because in B1 there is no lag (or atleast, that's what I remember hearing). The picture shifting still persists. Though I think Mr. Fudoh may have shed some light on this debacle. If my guess is correct it should be a simple fix.

I had no idea others had experienced the same error; I'm sitting here thinking I did something stupid, was kicking myself the whole night for not being able to figure it out. Turns out there was nothing I coulda done outside of buying another vid device.

As mentioned, you're familiar with the two firmware banks and the switching between the two ?

A friend of mine ran into the "picture shifted to the right" issue on his Samsung LCD. You can't fix this in B1 mode through the XRGB, but you can use a sync interface between the XRGB and the TV and this will fix it.

Switching resolutions doesn't do anything in B1 mode, but it was suggested that setting the output to 640x480 nevertheless improves the pixel mapping a little bit.

Don't forget to reset the XRGB after the FW updates.

Now we're getting some where. See, that's the one thing I didn't do. Reset the XRGB-3 after the firmware update. Since I had already activated it with the newly installed features would it be too late to reset it? In anycase how would I go about doing that? Somethings off whenever I try to set it to B0 mode through the advanced menu it doesn't appear to do that. Just stays in B1 picture. Also, for some reason I'm unable to turn the machine off without unplugging it (power buttons on the machine and remote aren't responding).

Hopefully the reset should fix everything. Very intricate device this XRGB is.

[Fudoh]

Reset: switch off, hold MENU and OK (both on the unit itself), switch on again.

Just for the record: which TV are you using ?

[BuckoA51]

Very intricate device this XRGB is.

Haha that's putting it very politely! Remember when you reset it that it defaults back into B0 mode. Also, when you change between B0 and B1 modes, you need to switch the XRGB off and turn it back on again before the new mode is activated.

[Rock Man]

Reset: switch off, hold MENU and OK (both on the unit itself), switch on again.

Just for the record: which TV are you using ?

That did the trick. I have a VIZIO Plasma HDTV.

BTW, I notice that in B1 Mode when I invert the H/V options it centers the screen in a fixed position (no rippling effect). Even though most resolutions are disabled I can pull one other resolution that blows the screen up, though I believe the bottom half is cut off.

Very intricate device this XRGB is.

Haha that's putting it very politely! Remember when you reset it that it defaults back into B0 mode. Also, when you change between B0 and B1 modes, you need to switch the XRGB off and turn it back on again before the new mode is activated.

Roger dodger!

Thanks for everything guys. Boy do I feel silly, I was frantically jumping menus pushing buttons and unhooking stuff so much that I accidentally caused a small rip in the power cable. I actually thought I caused some kind of abnormality in the device itself, so it was a design flaw after all. Who'd of thunk it?

Time to go buy some electric tape.

[trunk]

...
I'd probably need to go Edge->HD Fury->SLG3000->some sort of conversion back to digital->TV.
...

I thought of this also when thinking about using the slg3000, something like this...

Edge->HD Fury->SLG3000->Gefen VGA to DVI->TV

vs

xrgb-3->Edge->TV

I agree with BuckoA51 that these two setups price out about even xrgb ~$400+, slg+gefen+hdfury ~$400

The key here is that it is a good time to be interested in video setups thanks to having many choices.

[BuckoA51]

BTW, I notice that in B1 Mode when I invert the H/V options it centers the screen in a fixed position (no rippling effect).

Ah yes you mean Options->H-Sync Pol and Options->V-Sync Pol, I forgot about those guys, inverting them makes things a lot better on my set too, though not enough to satisfy me, the picture still has too much wobble for my liking...Sync interface didn't help. but of course your milage my vary.

[Fudoh]

Ok, it gets tricky once the TV doesn't have VGA, yes - but that was to be expected with the SLG3000 being a VGA in - VGA out device.

But some users use the Edge not because the TV doesn't have VGA, but to solve compatibility issues, e.g. getting PAL sources running on the XRGB, so with the Edge being the main processor in the chain, there shouldn't be any need to convert back to digital after the SLG3000.

[Fudoh]

the picture still has too much wobble for my liking

but the whole wobble thing is caused by the input signal. When you connect the XRGB straight away (without an active source), your image is rock solid, right ?

[BuckoA51]

but the whole wobble thing is caused by the input signal. When you connect the XRGB straight away (without an active source), your image is rock solid, right ?

Nope (not in B1 mode anyway), and the wobble is utterly eliminated by using either the Gefen or the Edge inbetween the XRGB3 and the TV.

[SGGG2]

Wait a minute, chaining a Gefen or Edge after the XRGB-3 will *eliminate* the shaky vertical sync?! Can anyone else confirm this, so we can make sure this isn't something unique to Bucko's set up? The menu in B1 is slightly shaky even without any sources.

B0 is the reason I still have an XRGB after obtaining an SLG3000. If you're playing close up to a large screen B1 just isn't an option, B0 at 1080p looks better than an emulator for 240p sources, and is pretty nice for 480p material, although not pixel perfect by any means.

[BuckoA51]

The wobble I think it's particually bad on my TV, even feeding a 720p PC signal into my TV you can still see some wobbly-ness around the icons on the desktop. On my old TV I only noticed a tiny bit of wobble on the XRGB3's menu but on my new TV its awful without another processor in the chain.

When using the Edge or Gefen even the menu on the XRGB3 in B1 is completely stable, I've never seen that happen on any TV I've tried it on. You can sit right next to the screen, there's no wobble at all though in this setup the SMS converter and the MVS are confirmed incompatible.

I think the menu problem is caused by slightly incorrect scaling by the TV, as I recall Fudoh said to me anyway.

[Calikitz]

Just got an XRGB3 used here in Japan. I got back home totally excited to start it up. Unfortunately I am still waiting for my Megadrive and Super Famicom RGB cables in the mail so I tried hooking them up through composite in to both VGA and DVI out. Neither which worked. There is all kinds of flickering on the black screen even when I do not turn a game system on. Constant white/grey crackling around. Then when I turn a system on it just garbles the picture all over. I read that capacitors in AC adapters go bad in these easily and cause distortion in the output. The weird thing is, I get this garbled image even without a game system on and only having a vga connected from my XRGB3 to my LCD monitor. Is this normal? Is it a setting problem or is my XRGB3 toast?

[Konsolkongen]

@BuckoA51: if you have the neccessary cables you could try putting the Interface on the input side of the XRGB instead on the output.

I have that homemade SCART to VGA cable I used to connect RGBs sources to the XRGB's D2 input. Will I gain anything if I try something like this: Master System > SCART to VGA cable > Extron F190 > XRGB-3 D2-in > Gefen VGA to DVI

?

[BuckoA51]

I got a SCART to VGA cable today and couldn't get a picture with it. Do they need anything special in order to work (specific type of sync splitter perhaps) ?

I have that homemade SCART to VGA cable I used to connect RGBs sources to the XRGB's D2 input. Will I gain anything if I try something like this: Master System > SCART to VGA cable > Extron F190 > XRGB-3 D2-in > Gefen VGA to DVI

I'm thinking no, but the SCART to VGA cable was cheap so it's worth giving it a try. I wish now I'd not returned the Syncblaster cable I had, I'd like to try that again but for £80 it was too expensive to shelf it.

[Konsolkongen]

I just tried it and nope it doesn't work. Won't sync with either Megadrive or Master System games. Sega Saturn works fine though.

[BuckoA51]

Oh so it's actually worse than going in via the Game in? Darn, I was hoping it would be at least as good, I could have made my cable run a little tidier then. Did you try all three sync types in the options menu?

[Fudoh]

Once I have my Mega Drive up and running*, I'll pick a master system to see what all the fuss with the XRGB is about...

(* today I ripped 18kg of cables from my rack - gutted everything. I'll try to have to the video section back up and running in a week or so and the Mega Drive till end of the month. Got a nice japanese MD1 along with a MCD2 and I'm waiting for the stereo/RGB mod to be done...)

[Konsolkongen]

I didn't try component but I did switch between RGBs and RGBHV a couple of times, with and without V-sync.

On a different matter: Now that I had my Extron dug out I tried running my PS2's component feed through that and into the Optoma HD3000. I was hoping the Extron could eliminate the phasing errors that occur in about half the 480i games on PS2. Sadly it didn't.

I'm selling it so I can buy an Edge instead

[Rock Man]

I'm just wondering what is there to gain from hooking the Dreamcast VGA cable into the XRGB-3 as DCVGA goes "IN" while TVVGA is "OUT". Is it supposed to change the kilohertz? I usually have 1 DC connected a lla SCART RGB which gives me 15 kHz. I was initially going to get a VGA switcher so that I can switch between the XRGB-3 VGA and regular DC VGA mode (DC Box). I recall hearing talks about Dreamcast regular VGA signal being superseeded i.e. VGA IN connection through the XRGB-3. Is this possible or does it just give normal output value when connected to Micomisoft's flagship device? (If it makes the default VGA mode even better then I'm going for it!) I was also considering connecting my Region Free DVD player through the XRGB because it's highest output is VGA.

Now that I think about it... assuming your standard VGA mode is enhanced through means of XRGB-3. I may as well just get a VGA multi out box and connect the DC & DVD Player to it. Running the output cable from the switcher into the XRGB-3's IN hub. Enabling me to switch between my 2nd Dreamcast (the VGA Dreamcast) and Region Free Player on the fly! Is it feasible to assume XRGB-3 can increase the quality signal for normal VGA?

[Fudoh]

You have two VGA inputs on the XRGB, one processed DSub15 port and one pass-through only DVI-I port.

Running the DC through the XRGB is not really neccesarry unless you want to use B0 mode to upscale the image.

[Rock Man]

You have two VGA inputs on the XRGB, one processed DSub15 port and one pass-through only DVI-I port.

Running the DC through the XRGB is not really neccesarry unless you want to use B0 mode to upscale the image.

I see. So in other words I may as well just keep my 2nd Dreamcast hooked-up in SCART RGB which enables me to play those non-VGA capable 240p games in VGA for good quality (Jojo, Last Blade, King of Fighters '99, etc.).

I suppose there's still the option of using a switcher for the DC and DVD Player for convenience. Think I'll just get a VGA selector for the three and call it a day. Gracias Fudoh!

P.S. Guilty Gear X and Street Fighter 3 look gorgeous when used on the XRGB(3) even though they already work in default VGA! This device seems to yield the best results from 240p games.

[BuckoA51]

If you run the Dreamcast via SCART, most of the time you get 480i, which is not desirable. The XRGB3's deinterlacing is generally considered to be terrible. You can run the Dreamcast VGA through the pass-through, but on my setup it adds jailbars to the image. You could always try the S-video out from the Dreamcast's VGA box for those rare 240p games. Then again if you have space for two Dreamcast then having one hooked via VGA direct to the TV and one hooked via SCART to the XRGB3 is ideal.

I was also considering connecting my Region Free DVD player through the XRGB because it's highest output is VGA.

Not a good idea, the XRGB3 isn't optimised for video content at all. In B0 mode I guess it would look OK, but I highly doubt it would be better than your TV can do... most likely it will look worse, can you even get a picture in B0 mode at 1080p? Most TV's can't.

[Rock Man]

If you run the Dreamcast via SCART, most of the time you get 480i, which is not desirable. The XRGB3's deinterlacing is generally considered to be terrible. You can run the Dreamcast VGA through the pass-through, but on my setup it adds jailbars to the image. You could always try the S-video out from the Dreamcast's VGA box for those rare 240p games. Then again if you have space for two Dreamcast then having one hooked via VGA direct to the TV and one hooked via SCART to the XRGB3 is ideal.

I was also considering connecting my Region Free DVD player through the XRGB because it's highest output is VGA.

Not a good idea, the XRGB3 isn't optimised for video content at all. In B0 mode I guess it would look OK, but I highly doubt it would be better than your TV can do... most likely it will look worse, can you even get a picture in B0 mode at 1080p? Most TV's can't.

Yes I have the space. I was crazy enough to do it with the Xbox for certain reasons, now Dreamcast.

S-Video on my television is garbage. Tried playing Vampire Chronicles on there and picture fail was horrible. It looked so muddy and broken up. Atleast with the XRGB-3 I can add scanlines which simulate a sort of Arcade monitor effect (B1 Mode). I can place bars at the sides or letterbox the image in B0 to improve the quality a little. Anything is better than Composite or S-Video on my TV it was almost as if the TV maker didn't care when they put those in. Only thing that looks half way decent in S-Video are some PS2 240p games (Smackdown 4).

Either way I have total access to all three connections. VGA standard & S-Video thanks to the DC Box, RGB SCART from the XRGB-3, so I'm straight. I'll definitely take the advice though on the DVD Player! Roger I'm keeping it away from the XRGB-3. My Sailor Moon DVDs looks bad enough already on my HDTV. Don't need them getting any worse. Plus I'm not too fond of the idea, using the XRGB for something other than what it was made for, to play games. Thanks for the input.

[BuckoA51]

I actually meant feed the S-Video into the XRGB3, there's two S-Video inputs on the back of the unit you can use. You must feed them an NTSC signal else the picture will be black and white, but I guess that's not a problem for you living in an NTSC country.

Can't you put the picture into 4:3 mode (bars at the side) when you use B1 mode just by changing the widescreen settings on your TV?

Hehe Salor Moon, that's a girls anime you know (hides Moon Phase boxset)

[Rock Man]

I actually meant feed the S-Video into the XRGB3, there's two S-Video inputs on the back of the unit you can use. You must feed them an NTSC signal else the picture will be black and white, but I guess that's not a problem for you living in an NTSC country.

Can't you put the picture into 4:3 mode (bars at the side) when you use B1 mode just by changing the widescreen settings on your TV?

Hehe Salor Moon, that's a girls anime you know (hides Moon Phase boxset)

lol I don't care if it's for chicks. I watch it because Sailor Pluto is hawt! Besides watching SM & DBZ makes me feel nostalgic for Toonami.

Yeah, as I started thinking more about it I figured that's what you meant.

Also, forgot my TV already has widescreen settings. Will try out S-Video through the unit itself and get back to you. I've never heard of S-Video doing better than SCART RGB though for 240p material. That's news to me.

[BuckoA51]

Oh no, S-Video is not better than SCART (unless you have a cheap SCART lead that only carries composite), but, doesn't your Dreamcast VGA box have an S-Video passthrough? I meant you could hook that into your XRGB3 and just use that for those 240p games, saving you swapping cables. With your dual Dreamcast setup that's not necessary though.

[Strider77]

Running the DC through the XRGB is not really neccesarry unless you want to use B0 mode to upscale the image.

Actually it was quite useful to do so for me. I installed a toggle switch on my DC's VGA box. I flip it one way and I get 480p, flip it the other way and I get 480i/240p. Going through the XRGB3 I have no cable swapping. I can play games like 3rd Strike, Gunbird 2 and Bangai-o with scanlines intact via 240p, then play games like border down and under defeat in 480p with no cable swapping. It was one of the big motivating factors for me to upgrade to the XRGB3.

[Rock Man]

Oh no, S-Video is not better than SCART (unless you have a cheap SCART lead that only carries composite), but, doesn't your Dreamcast VGA box have an S-Video passthrough? I meant you could hook that into your XRGB3 and just use that for those 240p games, saving you swapping cables. With your dual Dreamcast setup that's not necessary though.

Yeah, my DC Box comes with S-Video. Just for the hell of it I went on ahead and plugged S-Video into the XRGB-3.

While it tweaks the picture to look smoother for those 240p titles I lose linedoubling features as B1 Mode is locked. I tried playing SF3 Double Impact in S-Video the picture went totally black. So I reverted back to B0 full processing mode and regained all screen adjusting tools, at the correct resolution the picture is very much decent. The latter aspect intrigued me so I connected my Dreamcast RGB SCART set-up. I found that the colors are more vibrant than S-Video, though slightly more pixelated in B0 mode (tested on the same game too, SF3). Ultimately I decided to keep RGB SCART (via 21-Pin Adapter) DC switch hooked up along with S-Video (DC Box) to the XRGB-3 unit because it's a win/win situation!

The best settings though for me personally while using an RGB SCART cable. The absolute greatest I've witnessed comes from setting just the V-Sync to "Invert" reset the XRGB-3 to B1 linedoubling mode and calibrate the scanlines accordingly. This grants a pure Arcade monitor effect with two black bars at each side, the bars are reminiscent of XBLA/PSN games. It blows away S-Video being connected through the XRGB-3 by a landslide (albeit it's still a viable choice). I tested most of my DC collection with aforementioned set-up. Guilty Gear X looks compelling, fluid like anime. I've never seen Third Strike or CvS2 look so good. MvC2 was also surprising as I'm used to it being all pixelated, Last Blade 2 was great! I haven't tried it with KOF '99 yet but I'm going to next time I give it a go-around.

Far as I'm concerned, the XRGB-3 did everything I wanted it to do and then some. I couldn't be more happier with my purchase and I have this forum to thank for it. BTW BuckoA51, I probably shoulda clarified that I don't have my dual Dreamcast combo set piece yet... but I'm gonna. Waiting until next pay check when I get the funds for an extra VGA cable and the 2nd DC. Right now all I have is 1 VGA cable I used on the DC Box, right now that's being channeled through the XRGB-3's output. Rest assured, I have the space for the other DC. I currently have ten consoles actively hooked-up to the device (praise the almighty SCART switch!) eventually it will be fifteen.

Running the DC through the XRGB is not really neccesarry unless you want to use B0 mode to upscale the image.

Actually it was quite useful to do so for me. I installed a toggle switch on my DC's VGA box. I flip it one way and I get 480p, flip it the other way and I get 480i/240p. Going through the XRGB3 I have no cable swapping. I can play games like 3rd Strike, Gunbird 2 and Bangai-o with scanlines intact via 240p, then play games like border down and under defeat in 480p with no cable swapping. It was one of the big motivating factors for me to upgrade to the XRGB3.

My DC situations a little more drastic than yours since I need a dual console set-up to prevent cable swapping. So long as it gets the job done I'm straight, good thinking on installing the switch! Perhaps I should consider connecting the DC Box through the XRGB-3 after all. Though it's hard to believe games like Shenmue, Spider-Man, and DOA 2 could look any better. The different screen adjust features may benefit the experience.

Speaking of B0 mode I heard there will be inevitable lag. Is that only for DVI or is it prevelant in VGA as well? Even though I'm looking at a PC monitor that supports DVI-D I haven't tested the XRGB-3 on it yet. I'm enthused at the prospect of using 240p resolution assuming this projection display has it, make shmups such as Gigawing and Ikaruga look proper.