Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[nissling]

It worked great with my HD-E1, outputting 480i.

[BazookaBen]

Cool, which version of the HD Fury?

[nissling]

HDFury Gamer 2. It has pretty much everything I need and is very affordable.

[Unseen]

I just found out that my Nvidia graphics card can output 480i through HDMI, so I should be able to use my HDFury in order to get it working with my BVMs. That'd be great for video editing.

Let us know how it goes, I'm not sure HD Fury's work at such a low pixel clock.

480i over HDMI has the same pixel clock as 480p, every pixel is sent twice to keep the clock above the 25MHz limit.

[tacoguy64]

Got some video of my NEC XP37 Plus with a couple of Dreamcast games using the TORO VGA Box. But before you go on and watch, I must warn you that I took video using my camera phone so it isn't exactly the best quality you'll see but it does give you some idea of what the TV can do.

Chu Chu Rocket!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhtF63DbZZg

Jet Grind Radio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axy0F_APkpE

Sonic Adventure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNNRhSdt7A8

Dead or Alive 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-tb1NFSnpA

Resident Evil: Code Veronica
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGFdxJWrYq0

Crazy Taxy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL5QjWmBJbM

Overall I am really pleased to see how well the NEC MultiSync XP37 Plus handles the Dreamcast through SCART. Of course the camera and my noob recording skills don't do this beast any justice. Haven't tried it with VGA yet but results should be similar. With how well it handles the DC, it has left me wondering how good it might handle the GC, PS2, and Xbox.

[RGB-A]

The module card analog input from BVM-D work in BVM-A?

Depends which one. The 2006 BVM A series brochure says "The BVM-A Series input boards are not compatible with other earlier BVM Series monitors." However, some compatible optional input boards are shown:

BKM-62HS (HD SDI/SDI - not what you want)
BKM-61D (SDI/Analog Multi Input Adaptor - apparently doesn't do RGBs, just SDI, composite, and Y-C)
BKM-68X (Analog Component Input Adaptor - the one you want)

BKM-68X will accept YPbPr component, at HD resolutions, up to 1080/60i or 720/60p. It won't accept VGA, and I don't think there is any native solution for viewing VGA on a BVM. You would need another monitor to do that. I don't know about VGA PCs to YPbPr but it's been discussed here quite a lot before. Not sure about Dreamcast output, either, since I think that only comes as VGA without modding or transcoding.

btw, I would not suggest using the monitor for everything, since it's irreplaceable. Use a regular flat TV for 1080p and Blu-Ray watching to save hours, if you want to save the BVM for years to come.

Thanks for answering.

Was the video input card I need is the BKM-68X. It seems hard to find and have read that others have had months to find it.

I thought of an alternative. Buying a card BVM-D video input ebay and put it on my BVM-A32E1W. Before buying what I need to know what the best card BVM-D RGB. Why not sincrinizacion them? Only have 3 RGB BNC input. I do not understand because there is sync. For example the following:

- BKM-25P:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-BKM-25P-DE ... 51d410cf96

- BKM-20D/21D same:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Sony-BKM-2 ... 27ccafba62

- BKM-42HD:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-BKM-42HD-S ... 43df1ba282


These seem the best choice for classic consoles RGB BVM-A32E1W because if synchronized as BKM-68X:

- Board analog A-1135-826-A:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-Analog-Boa ... 3f293fde13

- Board analog A-1135-861-A:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-A-1135-861 ... 1e6e373f8f

- Board analog A-1135-921-A:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Sony-A-113 ... 487f05fb66

I need help to clarify this information. Thanks Ed Oscuro & Fudoh.

[Ed Oscuro]

Two types of cards will work:

- Find a compatible card (BKM-68X) that has R, G, B and Sync inputs. This will be 8 connectors at least (4 each of input and output).
- Find a card that supports component YPbPr, and use a cheap transcoder (CSY-2100 or clone), which should work fine. Color might not be perfect like RGB, but it should be very close.

Overall, I've sworn off BVMs due to problems like these, but the A32 is a really nice monitor.

Best of luck!

[RGB-A]

I only use RGB for the best posible image. I decided to buy this monitor used because for me it is a dream of my life for over ten years. What we did not know was that the version BVM-A do not come standard analog RGB input. I can not plug in the analog RGB.

My priority BKM-68X. I thought of a workaround as evidence a synchronous analog RGB input a BVM-D model. The manual of the BVM-A32E1W says that all removable video card BVM-A are not compatible with earlier BVM-D monitors. But it says that the BVM-D cards are not compatible with later monitres BVM-A. My hope is to make work a basic analog RGB module all bring screwed BVM-D and supposedly "non-removable" in the BVM-A monitor. What do you know of this, is it possible?


These three removable cards are created and only compatible with monitors BVM-A:
- BKM-62HS (HD SDI / SDI)
- BKM-61D (SDI / Analog Input Multi Adaptor)
- BKM-68X (Analog RGB + Sync Component Input Adaptor)

BKM-68 is the only one that is valid for full analog RGB. I think one of this three cards BVM-D monitor screwed "not removable" should work on monitors BVM-A as BKM-68X:

- Board analog A-1135-826-A:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-Analog-Boa ... 3f293fde13

- Board analog A-1135-861-A:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-A-1135-861 ... 1e6e373f8f

- Board analog A-1135-921-A:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Sony-A-113 ... 487f05fb66

And I'm willing to try it myself, but first I would like if anyone has tried this before or have more information to help me.

Thanks.

[iwc5002]

Nothing that helps with the problem at hand, I'm afraid, but a few points:

E class is better than F class E=900 TV Lines F=1000 TV Lines

Yes, E class is better than F class, but E= 1000 TVL, F = 900 TVL. (Side note: Higher TV lines of resolution spec is "better" for professional applications, but games have an aesthetic component that doesn't necessarily agree with this simple definition.) However, this is only for 20" models. Additionally, some lines that do keep the "F" designation for TVL did not have "E" variants, like the D series. There is a D20F1U, and there is a D24E1WU, but there is not a D20E1U or a D24F1WU (and it makes sense - the physically wider D24 can more easily support 1000 TVL than a regular 20" monitor).

Additionally, there is a big difference between the D series (and the later A series), i.e. BVM D20 (or A20), and the previous BVM series like BVM 20F1U. D series (and later A series) have multiformat capabilities; forum regulars report A series have problems synchronizing to some signal types.

For alfshusen:

BVM D24 should have (edit: actually, there's only a miniscule difference - 100% vs. 104% screen area; the D24 has .2 inches less vertical real estate - not worth getting concerned over), if my calculations are correct, somewhat LESS vertical space than any 20" monitor, i.e. a BVM 1911, BVM D20 (the 1911 is essentially the same thing, but older). I recently played through an Xbox game in a 480i-only PVM and it was pretty pleasant, though the screen is somewhat cramped.

I would not waste time and effort on fancy "Multiformat" monitors like the PVM-20L5 or the D series. You are likely to find old monitors with extreme usage in bad conditions, and on top of that they are easily damaged in shipping. Instead, for retro consoles, consider finding the best 480i television with component, or RGB SCART if you can find such a thing, local to you. If you find i.e. a recent 27" Sony WEGA with component, all you will need a an RGB to component (YPbPr) transcoder, and pretty well-regarded ones are found cheaply on eBay. If that's not "pro" enough, then see if you can't find reasonably priced Sony PVMs, or other pro monitors in 20" near you (not computer monitors, of course). You don't need a super-fine-pitch display for the classic 240 line consoles - a 600 TVL Sony PVM, with a built in "3D comb filter" works wonders on almost any source you can throw at it. I like my PVM-20L2 a lot more than my multiformat PVM for general playing.

The BVM D32E1WU appears to have a reputation for somewhat short-lived CRTs. It will also be immensely heavy, more than double the weight of a late 27" WEGA, which is already close to 100 pounds. And there's no guarantee it will work well with all your equipment.

Good displays for 480p (and similar) and 1080p content are a long-standing fascination of this forum; the long and short of it is that there are probably pretty good solutions available at your local television store. You might have a look at the "plasma bargain" thread to get an idea about a dying technology; on the other hand, current LCD TVs and some alternative technologies look promising also. I don't think there is a hands-down winner yet, but there are many TVs that handle post-480i gaming pretty well.

I would pick a monitor or good 480i TV + flat panel HDTV combination for getting across all of gaming. You don't have all your eggs in one basket, and instead of trying to fit all the required specifications on one hard-to-find-$20,000-when-new device, you can select devices that actually fit the source - and save money and hassle!

Probably the best reply that I have been looking for.

Ed Oscuro: where can I find a good but cheap RGB to component transcoder? Thank very much for your contribution (also thanking Fudoh)

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't have one myself, but I hear that the CSY-2100 clones on eBay are cheap and also good. Going after the pro products, like the Kramer transcoders, is difficult and also seems to be a waste of money (I got a FC-4040 myself, and it doesn't seem to work).

[Fudoh]

Going after the pro products, like the Kramer transcoders, is difficult and also seems to be a waste of money (I got a FC-4040 myself, and it doesn't seem to work).

The Kramer FC-15 is a night and day difference to the CSY clones. This said - it's next to impossible to find a FC-15, so go with what you can actually buy.

[Xan]

How do you guys set overscan for different consoles on your (consumer) CRTs? Do you (obsessively ) calibrate it perfectly for every system each time, or do you just stick with one compromise setting for all systems? Or do you use an RGB interface?

Currently the V-size is set to about match the 224 lines mode on the SFC. Using that does overscan most NTSC PS1 games a bit, but it's a compromise since I also play PAL games and it does cut off part of the bars there. Same on PS2 games which tend to have lots of underscan as well.

Still somewhat undecided about the H-size... not overscanning would show more on the screen for most games but breaks aspect a bit for 240 lines consoles, while overscanning breaks aspect for 224 lines but helps with the graphical garbage on NES (which I rarely play though and probably could put up with that). At least the offset is nothing to worry about as this particular TV has a mighty useful setting for that in the regular menu... for instance the PS1 needs its image shifted a few pixels to the left compared to the SFC, and doing that is no problem here.

For my PVMs eventually I'll just configure the two profiles to not have that compromise... it's not feasible to do that switch every time in the service menu on consumer TVs though.

[Ed Oscuro]

it's next to impossible to find a FC-15

I know That and the FC-14 (I think that's just an older version of the same thing). The 4046 might work, and it seems to share a PCB with other types (4040 and 4045 perhaps) but I'm not sure those work well.

@ Xan:
I just set my Wega's overscan low for PlayStation use, and left it there. I'm going through this now with my PVM, moving from one bad supergun which does seem to center video properly, to another which doesn't center the video but is much higher quality. It's not really a tough problem; it's like setting a single voltage pot that covers both 12V and 5V - you measure both and select a value, hopefully one which gives good values for both measurements.

[nissling]

Did try my HDM again with a couple of DVDs. This time I used my HDFury to get 1080i from the player (Toshiba HD-E1, decent region free model). Picture was much better than before but certainly softer than what I'm used to (of course). But then again I didn't get my HDM to watch DVDs either. Deinterlacing was quite good for film but not very impressive with video.

[BONKERS]

Going after the pro products, like the Kramer transcoders, is difficult and also seems to be a waste of money (I got a FC-4040 myself, and it doesn't seem to work).

The Kramer FC-15 is a night and day difference to the CSY clones. This said - it's next to impossible to find a FC-15, so go with what you can actually buy.

Did anyone ever do some comparisons of the FC-15 and the CSY 2100 with pictures? (OG 2100 not clone either)

[Fudoh]

That and the FC-14 (I think that's just an older version of the same thing).

The FC-14 is more universal. BNC inputs. Input selection for RGBs, RGsB, RGBHV and RsGsBs. It's also made for multi-format inputs and works with 15 and 31khz (and higher sources). The FC-15 is more of a special edition for 15khz and RGBs input only.

The 4046 might work, and it seems to share a PCB with other types (4040 and 4045 perhaps) but I'm not sure those work well.

we had a thread somewhere where somebody didn't have much luck with 240p sources on the bigger FC units. 480i was fine, but 240p caused problems of some kind.

Did anyone ever do some comparisons of the FC-15 and the CSY 2100 with pictures? (OG 2100 not clone either)

no, sorry, but it's a night and day difference. The FC-14 and FC-15 perform like native RGB inputs when connected to a YUV-only processor. I compared a Vigatec FX2+ and a Videon Omega HDP. They're identical, but the Omega has two component inputs where the FX2+ has one RGB and one component input. Zero difference between native connection to the FX2+ and using a FC-15 on the Omega. The CSY-2100 (I had an original on hand) on the other hand clearly degraded the quality, especially smearing highly saturated reds.

There's also the Kramer FC-4, which is a more compact version of the of the FC-15. Never had a chance to try this one.

[RGB32E]

The 4046 might work, and it seems to share a PCB with other types (4040 and 4045 perhaps) but I'm not sure those work well.

we had a thread somewhere where somebody didn't have much luck with 240p sources on the bigger FC units. 480i was fine, but 240p caused problems of some kind.

No, the Kramer 4046 doesn't work with 240p. Refer to my post - http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 32#p961432

If you need a RGB to component standalone box solution, then buy a FC-14 or FC-15 if you can find one! If a given console can use Tim's NESRGB-Component PCB, I would use that instead of either Kramer, but isn't a universal solution like the Kramers that support 240p.

[Ed Oscuro]

Ahh, a classic thread. That reminds me the 404X series are hardly plug-and-play with all those apparently undocumented DIP switches.
There may be *one* transcoder in the 404X lineup that works with 240p sources but I'm not holding my breath. My 4040 didn't give a picture at all, though it was impossible to rule out some potential issues and say the unit itself was totally incompatible. I forget whether the main PCB said 4045 or 4046, though, which should give a clue.

I wouldn't go pick up a 4040 or 4045 in the hopes they work better than mine...a FC-14 or -15 would be nice but I never found one at any price. People were already asking anywhere from $40+ to hundreds of dollars for the incompatible 404X series, ugh...

[Fudoh]

Many years ago I had a FC-4042 on hand and I'm pretty sure that it worked with 240p sources. Compared to the other 404x units, it has no settings at all and was a dedicated 15khz unit. It's a bi-directional transcoder - working both ways.

[Ed Oscuro]

I probably looked for one of those as well. It looks nice and simple, no DIP switches, just a couple buttons on the front panel:
http://www.starin.info/?file=Starin/Kra ... C-4042.pdf

Worth going after these days, though?

[Fudoh]

Probably just as hard to find as the other Kramer transcoder units.

Keene (in the UK) has the FC-4 at a *rather* acceptable price. Unfortunately the pound/EUR conversion isn't too funny these days, but for somebody in the UK this seems like a pretty good alternative to an original CSY2100 unit.

[Ed Oscuro]

Searching for old Kramer stuff is an exercise in frustration, as so much of what's on offer seems to be composite encoders, or distribution amplifiers...

The Keene link looks promising though, I'll consider dropping them a line.

[panzeroceania]

That and the FC-14 (I think that's just an older version of the same thing).

The FC-14 is more universal. BNC inputs. Input selection for RGBs, RGsB, RGBHV and RsGsBs. It's also made for multi-format inputs and works with 15 and 31khz (and higher sources). The FC-15 is more of a special edition for 15khz and RGBs input only.

The FC-14 and FC-15 perform like native RGB inputs when connected to a YUV-only processor. I compared a Vigatec FX2+ and a Videon Omega HDP. They're identical, but the Omega has two component inputs where the FX2+ has one RGB and one component input. Zero difference between native connection to the FX2+ and using a FC-15 on the Omega. The CSY-2100 (I had an original on hand) on the other hand clearly degraded the quality, especially smearing highly saturated reds.

There's also the Kramer FC-4, which is a more compact version of the of the FC-15. Never had a chance to try this one.

How do the above mentioned units compare to the XSELECT-D4 and the Burosch Con 1/2 ? How do the Burosch Con 1 and 2 differ from each other?

[Fudoh]

The Con-1 transcoders in the other direction as the Kramer units (YUV to VGA). Quality is great, but it doesn't clean the sync from the Green channel, so you can run into a few problems if the display can't tell the sync levels apart...

Con-2 is overengineered and tends to be faulty. Great though when it works. Bi-directional transcoder.

XSELECT is overall the most useful unit. It's quality is not 100% perfect, but you can only tell that if you have a Kramer running in the same setup and you switch between the two rapidly. Still VERY good though and way better than the CSY (and clone) units. The XSELECT gives you lot of picture controls that transcoders usually don't offer. And it's bi-directional and does switching as well. What more can you ask for ? The *only* downside is probably that it's component output is a d-terminal connector.

[nakedarthur]

Thanks so much to everyone for all the knowledge here, it's been a huge help making the leap to 240P RGB + PVM!

I dug up the Instruction manual and bought the Service Manual for the JVC DT-V1710CG, so if anyone needs them I've uploaded them here:

https://www.mediafire.com/?s45pn87r5bcjty8

I took some pics with my iPhone of the test patterns and Rondo of Blood running on the Wii through component. Please excuse the quality! Album here:

http://imgur.com/a/P0yG4

[FinalBaton]

^^^^^

Looks great

[Sgt.Wafer]

I dug up the Instruction manual and bought the Service Manual, so if anyone needs them I've uploaded them here:

https://www.mediafire.com/?s45pn87r5bcjty8

Thank you for sharing the service manual. I'm sure it will come in handy down the line.

[ilitirit]

Don't know if this is the right place to post things, but I'm playing on some old generic CRT. The problem is that the picture appears to be to big for the display, so the sides and top are slightly cropped. Where can I find info about how to adjust the view port?

[Xan]

Really? Who would know if you don't even give a make or model?

Just search what code on the remote accesses the service menu for that brand.

[ilitirit]

Really? Who would know if you don't even give a make or model?

Just search what code on the remote accesses the service menu for that brand.

Obviously I don't expect people to magically know what TV I have. *I* don't even know what type of model it is. I just want a reference to somewhere that has information about this.

After some searching I found this video but I'm sure there are sites with more detailed information. I don't have a problem with the ray convergence, just the size.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAHGex1BsAU

I know it's possible to change without the service menu because I've seen TV repair men doing it.

[EDIT]
Meh... based on the results of my searches is seems easier (and safer!) to just buy a new set.