That bitch Lucas announces Star wars on Blu Rayz

[Moniker]

I wonder if a LotR adaptation produced by Eddie Murphy, starring exclusively black cast, with Samuel L. Jackson as Gandalf, would be considered as racist. The book doesn't say the Middle-earth is a land of white people, does it?
Conan the barbarian was almost certainly white as in Howard stories people of other races are described as such. Not so sure about LotR.

No offence, but you're not getting it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Not getting what?

[greg]

I know this was before Lucas officially sucked, but wow -- wonder what that would have turned out like? One of the best movies of all time directed by one of those worst directors of all time.

I liked Apocalypse Now, but I watched Apocalypse Now Redux and I hated it. Holy crap, that dragged on so long with the French colonists and the tired political bantering. I don't really care for Coppola much, outside of the first two Godfather movies and Apocalypse Now. He's produced some great movies, like The Black Stallion and such, but nothing that I want to watch over and over again. Oh, and I also really liked Hammet.

And this improves things, how? The fact that Bojangles was black doesn't make Shirley Temple movies any less racist. JarJar remains more racist than a minstrel show. Moreover, virtually every alien in the prequels is based on pure racial stereotype. The jewish junkyard owner, the japanese trade federation people,

I can't stand Shirley Temple movies and haven't seen any, but wasn's Bojangles a black character portrayed by a black man? I don't know. Jar Jar was a goofy alien that looks like a stupid gecko or something, portrayed by a black man. I guess the "yousa" and "meesa" sounds "black" or Jamaican, but his behavior wasn't "black." I wouldn't put it on the same same level as a white person in blackface.

I always thought Watto sounded more like a New Yorker from Eastern Europe to me, like a Romanian or something. Does the fact he's money grubbing automatically make him Jewish? Drawing that comparison itself is racist, if that's the case. The Trade Federation guys didn't strike me as Japanese, except the accent did sound slightly Japanese when he says, "Once again you come before us, Your Highness." You may have a point about Watto, but the Trade Federation seemed to be all over the place when it came to accents, so they didn't sound very consistent. But there certainly is the point that TPM didn't have very imaginative alien accents and they relied on earthly accents too much to simulate diversity. Say what you like about Ewoks, but their language did sound unique.

Suddenly I'm remembering Louis Gosset Jr.'s performance as a Drak in the movie Enemy Mine. He completely embodied a uniquely alien alien in that movie.

One more gripe. Since when did "Nee wonga wonga" go from Bib Fortuna in ROTJ saying something like "Jabba isn't accepting any visitors" to "nee wonga wonga" being said by the dead frog vendor to Jar Jar, meaning "Hey, are you gonna pay for that?" I'm sorry, but no language is that nuanced.

[GaijinPunch]

I liked Apocalypse Now, but I watched Apocalypse Now Redux and I hated it. Holy crap, that dragged on so long with the French colonists and the tired political bantering. I don't really care for Coppola much, outside of the first two Godfather movies and Apocalypse Now. He's produced some great movies, like The Black Stallion and such, but nothing that I want to watch over and over again. Oh, and I also really liked Hammet.

Agreed, and probably why he cut it. But it showed how lance got the makeup though. It also nice to see people bang playmates. That just never gets old, even if they have 70's cans.

In another thread (or maybe this one?) I dogged him. Outside of the Godfathers and Apocalypse Now I think his stuff is pretty lame. I think his daughter did a bang up job on Lost in Translation though, despite the hardships of filming in Japan.

I always thought Watto sounded more like a New Yorker from Eastern Europe to me,

Cheech Marin. 120%.

[Obiwanshinobi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgujmHcSv0s

[Lordstar]

Watto is strait up eastern European pawn shop owner. No Jewish traits in their at all.

you want to talk racist read some Dickings!

[Moniker]

Watto is strait up eastern European pawn shop owner. No Jewish traits in their at all.

you want to talk racist read some Dickings!

You mean Dickens? Spot the differences!

[Skykid]

In another thread (or maybe this one?) I dogged him. Outside of the Godfathers and Apocalypse Now I think his stuff is pretty lame. I think his daughter did a bang up job on Lost in Translation though, despite the hardships of filming in Japan.

Aside from the Godfather bit, I agree wholeheartedly. It's unfortunate that Apocalypse Now was such a singular moment of clarity, but I suppose even an average director has a chance at refining a jewel out of a billion hours of footage.
I actually like Redux, even if the French colonists scene is a little jarring. It remains uniformly brilliantly directed throughout.

I never rated Coppola though. The Godfather is overrated in everything except Brando's performance and Dracula is a right bag of piss. Bearing the suffix 'Bram Stoker's' is an insult to the man - it's got very little to do with his work.

Sofia is superior in everything I've seen her do.

[greg]

Guys, here's a reason to re-watch the Star Wars prequels again on DVD.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Oliver Twist is an odd whipping boy of choice when The Merchant of Venice would make for a more drastic example from English literature.

[Moniker]

Oliver Twist is an odd whipping boy of choice when The Merchant of Venice would make for a more drastic example from English literature.

The portrayal of Shylock can, and has, been debated endlessly. It goes back to my point about portraying racism and using racism. In my humble opinion, Shylock is portrayed as a Jew turned villain via a life of ostracism and verbal abuse. Naturally many would disagree, but it's hardly an obvious fact that Shakespeare made Shylock Jewish because he thought Jews made natural villains. As Shylock protests, "Hath a dog ducats?"

Oliver Twist, on the other hand, is the opposite. Dickens himself insisted that Fagin was a fair representation of British Jews. He caught so much flak for it (notably from a genteel Jewish family), that he wrote "Our Mutual Friend" where the Jewish character Riah is essentially Moses in character and appearance. Basically he moved from one end of the spectrum of stereotypes to the other.

I never rated Coppola though.

[Skykid]

I never rated Coppola though.

You're now charged with proving otherwise.

Before you get busy:

Apocalypse Now is wonderful, but it's a one off, not a track record.

The Godfather is sleep inducing. Both the film and Pacino's acting ability (I'm going to START SHOUTING now) are vastly overrated.
The Godfather part III is suicide inducing.

Carry on.

[Moniker]

The Godfather may be overrated, but it's still a classic. I'd say you're dead wrong re: Pacino, at least during the 70s & 80s, but there's no accounting for taste, I suppose. I can't say I particularly cared for the sequel, but whatevs; most disagree. I also liked Dracula (apart from Keanu). You have to approach it from a certain mindset, and with a view towards classic horror/gothic trends. Again, a matter of taste.

Then you have: (Lesser, but quality, titles in parentheses)
The Conversation, (Godfather Pt. II), Apocalypse Now, (The Outsiders), Rumble Fish, (Peggie Sue Got Married), Tucker: The Man and his Dream, Dracula, (Youth Without Youth), Tetro.

The Conversation, Apocalypse Now, and Rumble Fish are each cinematic masterpieces, any of which is good enough to make any director's career. He did all three.

[Skykid]

The Conversation, Apocalypse Now, and Rumble Fish are each cinematic masterpieces, any of which is good enough to make any director's career. He did all three.

Well it's not much of an argument then, as I agree with AN, disagree with Rumble Fish (being a masterpiece - strong word there) and I haven't seen The Conversation.

Re: Pacino, he is completely overrated. His best performance was Dog Day Afternoon and I put a lot of that down to Lumet. His ability is exaggerated because of his 'iconic' roles (Godfather/Scarface.) The reality is he's just ok, pretty limited. He's not Gary Oldman, or anything.

[dan76]

The Conversation, Apocalypse Now, and Rumble Fish are each cinematic masterpieces, any of which is good enough to make any director's career. He did all three.

I have to agree with this. Coppola had a pretty good run all through the 70's into the early 80's, he was always pushing something, trying stuff out. I think it stopped being interesting after the Cotton Club (which I like - compare it to shit like Chicago and it's another masterpiece). Maybe it was his weird way of recording sound... Redux is proof positive that less is more. For me the impact of the film is weakened by those extra scenes - interesting though they are.

On another note, I can't believe that some people are actually defending the prequels here... what's that all about?

[Obiwanshinobi]

On another note, I can't believe that some people are actually defending the prequels here... what's that all about?

You still have yet to provide examples of "generic designs" (your words) in The Phantom Menace. I assume we're talking about hardware design and the word "generic" was intended as derogatory.
My idea of generic SF designs in American cinema is more like stuff you can see in The Matrix or Men in Black - ugly and pedestrian. Oh yes, Battlefield Earth and Total Recall too. I guess whoever designed Mars Matrix gear was into those flicks.

[Moniker]

Re: Pacino, he is completely overrated. His best performance was Dog Day Afternoon and I put a lot of that down to Lumet. His ability is exaggerated because of his 'iconic' roles (Godfather/Scarface.) The reality is he's just ok, pretty limited. He's not Gary Oldman, or anything.

I don't think we have much of an argument here, either. Mostly I think you estimate his "rating" higher than I do. I don't think anyone ever called him one of the best actors ever, or anything. Among the most popular, certainly - and who's to say he doesn't deserve popularity? - but never the best. He aptly played a shitload of great roles in his early-to-mid career, and he's always engaging. But to compare him to the real greats is just silly. His range is more akin to Gene Hackman's than Nicholson or Oldman's. He's a very good actor who's become somewhat stiff over the years, no more, no less. If that's the rating he usually gets (which is my impression), then it's fitting.

Oh yes, Battlefield Earth and Total Recall too.

Git yer hands off my Total Recall. A mutant baby parasite that lives in its followers' abdomens? A chick with three knockers? That's vision!

And you have also failed to note that everyone in the Matrix wore black, had dangerously cool sunglasses, and was run through a green filter! GENERIC?!

Edit: I must admit that I've been running all of my favorite sci fi films through my head, and they're all by Brits. Excluding Empire Strikes Back and Aliens. And I guess Aliens was really originally a Brit notion, but Cameron added some cool touches w/ the marines.

Edit2: Terminator!

Edit3: Fuck, James Cameron is Canadian!

[GaijinPunch]

Redux is proof positive that less is more.

Even w/o the extras it's still what... 2 hours and 20 minutes? But, I see what you mean.

He's not Gary Oldman, or anything.

Funny, as lately I've been kind of wondering what happened to Gary Oldman. He seems to do far less work than he did in the late 90s, and nothing too over the top, like his role in The Professional. Paccino as well seems to have been vaginafied over the years.

Edit3: Fuck, James Cameron is Canadian!

The horror.

EDIT: Apocalypse Now is coming to BluRayz on October 19th.

[Obiwanshinobi]

There are Hollywood films with cool SF designs (Blade Runner, Alien, Star Wars, Tron) and I don't believe it has much to do with director's nationality in the end (Ridley Scott may be British, but two French-speaking comic books artists from the Pilote and Métal Hurlant circles - Moebius and Jean-Claude Mézières - did some work on Alien).
There's just good looking stuff and bad looking stuff, and for whatever reason in Hollywood flicks it's usually the latter, or at least for every Masters of the Universe (yay) is one The Last Starfighter (boo). Don't get me wrong, on the balance I like both films, but The Last Starfighter shows some designs ugly for the wrong reasons.
P.S. Fucking awesome. That's how you make a movie trailer.

[Siren2011]

Paccino as well seems to have been vaginafied over the years.

^This. I don't think it's because his balls are becoming, ahem! "seasoned", but rather because he is content with an agent who finds him shitty or mediocre roles. To a certain extent, I don't blame the dood for not firing him. If I was De Niro's age or Paccino's age, I wouldn't want to drag my geezer self to the set of a hardcore action flick five times a week. Look at freaking Harrison Ford and his desperate attempt to appear young (again, I don't completely blame him for that). He didn't look like he belonged at all in the last Indiana Jones flick, and god knows how retarded he'd look in a Blade Runner sequel, assuming they want him to fight replicants hand to hand and shit.

I've got a good idea. How about we get fucking Larry King to be a cigar smoking, chaingun wielding ninja who does all of his own stunts. (I'm not being sarcastic. That would be really entertaining.) Overalls of Doom. Rated NC-17.

[Moniker]

Ahh DeNiro... It's pretty sad that after giving superlative performances in Scorcese's early stuff, he's been condemned to an eternity of mediocrity or worse. Pacino seems to just have gotten lazy; he managed a rather good show as Kevorkian in "You Don't Know Jack." I think DeNiro had something special, and then lost it forever.

As for Gary Oldman, I think it's more that he's been playing small roles lately in Batman and Harry Potter (which seems to be a time sink of quite a few amazing British actors). I'd like to think he's doing more theatre or something, but I have no clue.

Redux is proof positive that less is more. For me the impact of the film is weakened by those extra scenes - interesting though they are.

Thanks for voicing what I've felt about Redux (mostly). The French sequence should be included, no question. The rest is a bit more variable. The extra Playboy was interesting and well-integrated, but has the distinct feeling of "bonus" material. The extra Kurtz scenes are well-written, but you can see why Coppola decided to shift focus from Brando to Hopper. The surfboard subplot definitely takes you out of the movie.

[dan76]

On another note, I can't believe that some people are actually defending the prequels here... what's that all about?

You still have yet to provide examples of "generic designs" (your words) in The Phantom Menace. I assume we're talking about hardware design and the word "generic" was intended as derogatory.
My idea of generic SF designs in American cinema is more like stuff you can see in The Matrix or Men in Black - ugly and pedestrian. Oh yes, Battlefield Earth and Total Recall too. I guess whoever designed Mars Matrix gear was into those flicks.

Well, the designs seem pretty generic to me, but maybe not to you - you actually like the film - it's subjective, isn't it? Certainly there was a lack of originality in the designs, but then I guess that goes for most Sci-Fi since Bladerunner.

I think the tanks, federation ships were pretty dull - those robots at the start who attack the Jedi's... Naboo reminded me of Babylon 5/Star Trek TNG in the overall look and colour - also the costumes... By generic I just mean being typical of the time, unlike the ships from the original films. What genius sold his soul and came up with the Imperial Shuttle, Milenium Falcon, the Twin-Pod Cloud Car! I did like the Jedi fighter in AotC, the little red and white ship that fights Slave-1 (though that bitch screwed it up with his poetry).

I'd also jump to the defense of Total Recall, and maybe Starship Troopers, at least in ship design. They were very blocky, something different from around a time when everything was being smoothed out with CGI. I like Verhoeven - Showgirls, what a movie!

[Obiwanshinobi]

The thing is, the original trilogy was such a seminal endeavour that prequels couldn't have possibly topped its freshness in terms of depicted world. New Hope is the first flick known to me with dogfighting in space, or fantasy dogfighting at all (before SW, spacecraft combat in films was about stuff like "Earth vs The Flying Saucers", but I believe SW had greater impact on pop-culture, as you can see in the whole "space shooter" genre, the likes of Last Exile and whatnot).
More vintage, ornate designs reflecting decadent spirit of the Old Republic in decline are what The Phantom Menace brought to the table. Typical of their time? Where else in the last century's late nineties could you see such robots?

[Skykid]

He's not Gary Oldman, or anything.

Funny, as lately I've been kind of wondering what happened to Gary Oldman. He seems to do far less work than he did in the late 90s, and nothing too over the top, like his role in The Professional.

The guy hasn't done nearly enough. It saddens me when a really blinding actor isn't used properly in their younger years. He was great in The Professional, but then he is in everything. Recently it's really Batman and just released Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

His range is more akin to Gene Hackman's than Nicholson or Oldman's. He's a very good actor who's become somewhat stiff over the years, no more, no less.

Gene Hackman is a much better actor.

[greg]

OK, I watched Phantom Menace with the Rifftrax commentary and laughed my ass off yesterday afternoon (oh, the joys of being able to "work" from home). Moniker, you were right about the Trade Federation guy speaking with a fake Japanese accent. The Nute Gunray (yes, I know his name) is really the only one out of all the Neimodians (yes, I know that name too) who speaks with an annoying fake Japanese accent at least, but it is still stupid. It's not even consistently Japanese either. Mike Nelson calls him "Major Burnt Marshmallow," lol! Watto still does not sound "Jewish" though, and more of a cross between Cheech Marin and an East European.

It's annoying that the alien accents in the movie all sound like our own terrestrial accents. Although come to think of it, Lucas was always wanting to make the alien languages more like Earth languages. In ROTJ, Lando's copilot Nein Numb in ROTJ was acted by a Kenyan movie star, and his "alien" language is just spouting nonsense sentences in Kenyan, like "one hundred herds of elephants are standing on my foot" or something like that. The Ewoks sounded a bit like Vietnamese to me, which would make sense since Lucas has said he thought they were an allegory to the Vietnam war in which the "little people" (maybe that's not the right words he used) outsmarted a technologically superior army. (That's the common delusion is that the North Vietnamese army outsmarted the American army, when in reality we just outdumbed ourselves.) Come to think of it, the only truly imaginative aliens were in the very first Star Wars movie. Hammerhead (Ithorian) speaking in stereo with two mouths... that's cool.

[GaijinPunch]

OK, I watched Phantom Menace with the Rifftrax commentary and laughed my ass off yesterday afternoon (oh, the joys of being able to "work" from home). Moniker, you were right about the Trade Federation guy speaking with a fake Japanese accent.

Actually Lucas got lambasted for that for using "Chinese" accents. They're pretty distinguishable. Definitely not Japanese (or shit attempts).

(That's the common delusion is that the North Vietnamese army outsmarted the American army, when in reality we just outdumbed ourselves.)

We clearly didn't have enough LSD to get the job done.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I've got a good idea. How about we get fucking Larry King to be a cigar smoking, chaingun wielding ninja who does all of his own stunts. (I'm not being sarcastic. That would be really entertaining.) Overalls of Doom. Rated NC-17.

The thing is that most American movie theater chains refuse to show such NC-17 rated films (outside of some indy art house movie theaters that have no problem showing such aforementioned rated films). Now if said current director wants his or her film to be shown nationwide, then it'd have to be screened by the MPAA with key issues/points addressed and some parts edited down or omitted entirely so that it garners a more acceptable "R" rating. It seems that the MPAA was more lax in terms of rating films back in the 1970s (i.e. -- like with the original 1971 version of Straw Dogs and it's graphic rape scenes and was given an R rating. The original unedited version of Man Bites Dogs was, initally, given an NC-17 rating for U.S. film audiences but after a key scene was omitted entirely, it was given an R rating as well).

Back to the original thread topic at hand.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[GaijinPunch]

The thing is that most American movie theater chains refuse to show such NC-17 rated films (outside of some indy art house movie theaters that have no problem showing such aforementioned rated films). Now if said current director wants his or her film to be shown nationwide, then it'd have to be screened by the MPAA with key issues/points addressed and some parts edited down or omitted entirely so that it garners a more acceptable "R" rating. It seems that the MPAA was more lax in terms of rating films back in the 1970s (i.e. -- like with the original 1971 version of Straw Dogs and it's graphic rape scenes and was given an R rating. The original unedited version of Man Bites Dogs was, initally, given an NC-17 rating for U.S. film audiences but after a key scene was omitted entirely, it was given an R rating as well).

I guess that's why we never saw that controversial Princess Leia/Bib Fortuna anal rape scene. I heard the actor playing Bib Fortuna suffered rectal trauma in the process.

[Obiwanshinobi]

[neorichieb1971]

Even in HD I didn't see a toilet in Princess Leia's cell.