Psikyo > Cave

[Squire Grooktook]

The hitboxes in later games seem pretty reasonable, can't say I fault them there. And pattern variety seems decent.

My main problem with them is the memorizer thing. You can say "Well at high level play, *insert game you like here* is 90% memorization!" and that may or may not be true, but in the end the type of memorization in Psikyo games (as well as the amount of it) is something I generally don't find enjoyable.

[EmperorIng]

know exactly where to be to dodge them

Directly to the left or directly to the right of the bullet, if I recall correctly.

because your hitbox is ludicrously massive

Ludicrous?

I'm not sure I would call Ketsui or SOJ easy for survival on any account. And of course 2 loop games blur the line a bit since they are a truly difficult survival challenge but require some scoring and whatnot to unlock.

It's easy to contrast when you only pick the better Cave games! Ketsui and DOJ are definitely not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but those games' difficulties are only minorly affected by their scoring systems (though it's less taxing to survive in Ketsui when you are not compulsively point-blanking everything). I was talking more about games like DDP, ESPGaluda, DFK, or the like becoming far easier when you no longer "play by the game's rules," so to speak.

[Pretas]

Many Cave and Touhou devotees probably consider hitboxes larger than a single pixel to be "ludicrously massive."

Play Tiger Heli if you want to experience what a massive hitbox is really like.

[Erppo]

No one accuses a Psikyo game being easy under any circumstance, playing "for score" or otherwise

The only reason why Psikyo games are hard to clear is that they all loop. If you look at only the first loop, it's pretty easy to bomb through but difficult to play "for score", which in Psikyo's case generally means not dying or bombing (Dragon Blaze excluded). Sounds kind of like some other games...

By that do you mean having the exact same scoring system every time, and always relying on bullet patterns of 5 bullets flying at you so fast you either know exactly where to be to dodge them or get killed because your hitbox is ludicrously massive for the attacks you face?

Indeed.

Ketsui and DOJ are definitely not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but those games' difficulties are only minorly affected by their scoring systems

This thread is so full of what.

[EmperorIng]

ie, the games remain really hard whether or not you play for score. It could've been worded better.

You can equate survival with score in a Psikyo game, but everyone in this thread has been complaining about the "lack of scoring systems" in a Psikyo game as a major detriment to them, so there's no real need to point out that yes, your score in a Psikyo game is better the longer you survive.

[Illyrian]

ie, the games remain really hard whether or not you play for score. It could've been worded better.

You can equate survival with score in a Psikyo game, but everyone in this thread has been complaining about the "lack of scoring systems" in a Psikyo game as a major detriment to them, so there's no real need to point out that yes, your score in a Psikyo game is better the longer you survive.

Your score getting higher as you survive isn't a scoring system by itself. The only scoring system in the Psikyo games I've played is the coins/bars/medals. Since you'll get enough points to earn both score extends in 1 loop without bothering to go for 2,000 coins/medals/gems the whole system is irrelevant. If you want an example of a "just surviving is the scoring system!" look at Truxton II where there are lots of extends available and therefore killing absolutely every single enemy and keeping 1 shot type as much as possible actually makes a difference.

Good job with your complete lack of reading comprehension as well, dumbass.

The whole point of my bullet speed/hitbox comment was that on the later levels (and feel free to verify this by watching any Strikers/Gunbird replay) many of the boss patterns are so fast that you either know where to be and what's coming, or you just die. This is because your hitbox is too big to realistically reaction dodge through them. Look at Strikers 1999 from 1-6 onwards, or even 1-5 if you like. Hell, look at the last 4 levels of Gunbird 2, never mind the second loops of these games.

[ptoing]

There are way too many discussions of this type on this forum.

Wahwah Cave! Wahwah Psikyo! Wahwah Touhou! Wahwah Taito! Wahwah in perpetuity...

Most of the well loved shmups are more or less well done, and some people just like different things that others.
I myself am not a fan of Psikyo fare, but I realise that there are people who love it. Who am I to tell them they are wrong about their subjective tastes? The sooner people realise that these kinda discussions are pointless the better, but I am not holding my breath.

[LordHypnos]

There are way too many discussions of this type on this forum.

Wahwah Cave! Wahwah Psikyo! Wahwah Touhou! Wahwah Taito! Wahwah in perpetuity...

Most of the well loved shmups are more or less well done, and some people just like different things that others.
I myself am not a fan of Psikyo fare, but I realise that there are people who love it. Who am I to tell them they are wrong about their subjective tastes? The sooner people realise that these kinda discussions are pointless the better, but I am not holding my breath.

But then... What will we argue about

[ptoing]

Do we need to argue about dumb shit like that all the time, esp when it all has been done a whole bunch of times before?
There is nothing wrong with making top 25 lists and such, but pretending you got better taste than the next person because they like something you don't is pretty silly.

But yeah, I guess on a forum with extremely opinionated people like here (I am quite opinionated myself), it's hard to avoid stuff like this. People putting more energy towards actually playing games, or maybe even making games themselves would be nicer tho And of course things like strategy discussions and what have you.

And you can argue about things that are more on the level, like which weapon configurations in Gradius 3 is the best for different play styles, fuck if I know. But this A is better than B, just because I say so is silly. And again, all taste. Some people like to get stepped on their nuts to get sexual pleasure. Perhaps playing Psikyo games is the equivalent of that in shmups

[Xyga]

Sig-ed.

[LordHypnos]

Nah, I pretty much agree with you, really Just making jokes

[ptoing]

Sig-ed.

It sums up the forums pretty well, no? I jest.

[Xyga]

Maybe add: 'Wahwah women! Wahwah LGBT! Wahwah Ukraine! Wahwah Mame! Wahwah in perpetuity...'

[Illyrian]

Sig-ed.

It sums up the forums pretty well, no? I jest.

To a certain extent it actually does

[ACSeraph]

Is it that hard to just not read the thread? It isn't like you didn't know what it was about based on the title.

Everyone in this thread is just bored and chatting about games they like. It's just interesting to see who likes what and why.

Good job with your complete lack of reading comprehension as well, dumbass.

Stop acting like a piece of shit.

[LordHypnos]

Is it that hard to just not read the thread? It isn't like you didn't know what it was about based on the title.

Everyone in this thread is just bored and chatting about games they like. It's just interesting to see who likes what and why.

Yeah, that's also a good point

[Squire Grooktook]

The way I see it, most good games can be analyzed on two levels. First, they can be analyzed on a mechanical level: Are these mechanics contradictory? Is it well programmed? Is the game polished and balanced? Are the design choices logical considering what the game is trying to be? etc. etc.

Than there's the more subjective level. Ie do you prefer free style or planning? Do you prefer arcade style games or rpg's? etc. etc. I think on that level people should respect others tastes, and should be willing to acknowledge the game is good even if they don't personally enjoy it. Like for example, I really don't enjoy Super Meatboy. It's absolutely boring and mindless for me, but you'd never catch me saying it's a boring mindless game or that it's a bad game. It's just simply not my style, but it's well designed and I can empathize with why others enjoy that style.

Same here. Most people should be able to acknowledge that both Psikyo games and Cave games (or at least the companies output in general, not every game has to be great) are good. This doesn't mean that people can't discuss and express why they personally like/dislike either company, but they should be able to do so in a respectful and understanding way.

[casualcoder]

@Squire Grooktook

That's very rational, and hard to argue with. However, one could always write in the subject line:

Cave > Psikyo

Now, how do you deal with THAT Mr. Logic!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Am I alone in thinking that Cyvern, a game made by a company mostly known for... uh, Gals Panic?... is better than most Psikyo shmups? Its scoring/medaling system alone is more interesting than any Psikyo scoring I've seen, and much less finicky than coin chaining is.

[Illyrian]

Stop acting like a piece of shit.

You literally just totally undermined what you said by swearing. Nice Work!

Strikers 1999 is kinda good I guess, you turn into a robot when you bomb with the X-36. That's pretty cool. And it's not like Cave always hits the mark as well, I mean Guwange is fantastically polarizing with it's scoring system, it could be argued that Pink Sweets and Ibara are bullshit and unfair (I don't agree, they're awesome) and Mushhimesama's wierd tappy scoring system is...strange.

[moonwhistle]

I love the presentation and simple mechanics in Psikyo games and generally find them really good fun for 3-4 levels on average. After that enemy bullets and boss patterns switch to super fast and I can't dodge them on reaction. I have zero interest in games of memory so unfortunately Psikyo games lose all their fun after the first few levels.

I much prefer the ability to fly by the seat of your pants style so Cave games suit me much better overall. Having said that I dislike complex scoring systems. I don't want to have to read dozens of pages discussion just to know how to play something properly.

[LordHypnos]

Am I alone in thinking that Cyvern, a game made by a company mostly known for... uh, Gals Panic?... is better than most Psikyo shmups? Its scoring/medaling system alone is more interesting than any Psikyo scoring I've seen, and much less finicky than coin chaining is.

Is it comparable, at all, would you say, or do you just not like Psikyo? If it's not comparable, seems like kind of a random comparison to make (like saying "I think Mars Matrix is better than Psikyo because the bullets are slower, and the game allows for a lot of improvization, plus the scoring system is much more enjoyable than Gunbird 2 medal chaining") if it is then it's more of a "Cyvern does Psikyo better than Psikyo" type thing.

[mastermx]

I haven't played very far into psykyo games. But are the bullet speeds so fast that they are completely memorization? Is it really that bad?

[LordHypnos]

I haven't played very far into psykyo games. But are the bullet speeds so fast that they are completely memorization? Is it really that bad?

I probably shouldn't be trying to answer this, because I don't really know, but based on the first 3 stages of Gunbird 2, I'd say no, but the fourth stage makes me think probably yes. There are some ridiculously fast bullets, especially on the boss. I don't even know how you could memorize where to be with such fast bullets (How do you find the safe spot / movement pattern to begin with?). Some of the memorization is definately which enemies to speed kill, because you only have a limited gauge, so you can't speed kill everybody. And memorizing where to do aggressive bullet herding (lots of aimed shots in this game) I thought that part was pretty enjoyable though. Another funny thing is how "easy" difficulty doesn't seem any different from "normal." Once you get lower than that, though, it's different.

[ratikal]

I haven't played very far into psykyo games. But are the bullet speeds so fast that they are completely memorization? Is it really that bad?

Majority of the patterns in Psikyo games are easily readable, but you do need to be in the correct spot in advance to dodge them effectively. This is something you should be doing in any other game, but is absolutely necessary in Psikyo games to stand a chance.

However, there's patterns like this that I can't even grasp how to read effectively. Personally, I can't find a lane to line myself up to. It feels like you aren't dodging the pattern but rather just moving at the right time to pass by the pattern, if that makes any sense.

[LordHypnos]

I haven't played very far into psykyo games. But are the bullet speeds so fast that they are completely memorization? Is it really that bad?

Majority of the patterns in Psikyo games are easily readable, but you do need to be in the correct spot in advance to dodge them effectively. This is something you should be doing in any other game, but is absolutely necessary in Psikyo games to stand a chance.

However, there's patterns like this that I can't even grasp how to read effectively. Personally, I can't find a lane to line myself up to. It feels like you aren't dodging the pattern but rather just moving at the right time to pass by the pattern, if that makes any sense.

@_@ holy shit! I should probably know this, but what stage is that from? EDIT: Nvm, I think it's North Pole, or whatever the 5th stage is called
Pretty sure NMNB 2-ALL of Gunbird 2 is the hardest thing ever.

[endoKarb]

I haven't played very far into psykyo games. But are the bullet speeds so fast that they are completely memorization? Is it really that bad?

Yes. It is not a bad thing.

However, there's patterns like this that I can't even grasp how to read effectively. Personally, I can't find a lane to line myself up to.

You just need to stand still. When a bullet you is about to hit you, you move left or right. Repeat x3 and voila.
It's a really easy pattern once you get used to it. (if I can do it! >.<)

It feels like you aren't dodging the pattern but rather just moving at the right time to pass by the pattern, if that makes any sense.

"As much as possible, you should not be dodging bullets. These are “bullet dodging” games, but you should avoid dodging as much as you can." KTL-NAL

[Limbrooke]

Am I alone in thinking that Cyvern, a game made by a company mostly known for... uh, Gals Panic?... is better than most Psikyo shmups? Its scoring/medaling system alone is more interesting than any Psikyo scoring I've seen, and much less finicky than coin chaining is.

Yeah, you're likely alone on that one. In terms of scoring that's an aspect in Psikyo games you should worry about once you've gotten X games/challenge survival down. In Cyvern, the scoring is more tied to how long you'll survive and ultimately if you score higher one time versus the next you may play longer which is never the case in any Psikyo game. If adaptive playing is your game, go for it - I find all the dragons to be slow in Cyvern and because it's dynamic in terms of progress I'd rather go more straight forward and challenging route in nearly any Psikyo game.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

lolwut, Cyvern's medals are far more rewarding than bothering with Psikyo coin nonsense, if you're arguing that one is more survival oriented than the other then the loser here is Psikyo and its tiresome coin, pointblank boss killing. There's a massive boost to score in Cyvern from keeping medals going compared to ignoring medal chaining, and it's far more enjoyable to do while dodging than sitting in front of an object and waiting to grab it during a specific frame.

[Limbrooke]

lolwut, Cyvern's medals are far more rewarding than bothering with Psikyo coin nonsense, if you're arguing that one is more survival oriented than the other then the loser here is Psikyo and its tiresome coin, pointblank boss killing. There's a massive boost to score in Cyvern from keeping medals going compared to ignoring medal chaining, and it's far more enjoyable to do while dodging than sitting in front of an object and waiting to grab it during a specific frame.

What I'm suggesting is that in Cyvern survival is tied to scoring well as in collecting all medals whereas in most Psikyo games scoring well has no effect on survival, since survival in itself is a challenge. To suggest all Psikyo games have flashing coin/medal pick-ups, which they don't, and have boss point blanking mechanisms, of which only 2 have is a little extreme. Comparing Psikyo to Cyvern and specifically Cave given the topic is akin to comparing carrots to oranges. They're the same colour but they have much different flavours. That said, I enjoy both Cyvern and most Psikyo fare as I enjoy both carrots and oranges.