5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[Turrican]

Anti-Spacewar propaganda!

(can you make the next image maybe 30% bigger?)

edit: thanks, Ceph, problem solved.

Oh, and Issun doesn't paint propaganda - it's more like poetry!

[Ceph]

Change the jpg quality setting to 80% and it will become much smaller than 2.2MB.

[professor ganson]

I doubt I could easily name more than around 100 I've played, much less recall well enough to compare their relative merits.

Has anyone ever attempted a poll (of the top 25 voters or otherwise) to find out how many shooters members consider themselves familiar with? Might be vaguely interesting. Or it might just spark much debate over how much experience and understanding of a game constitutes 'familiarity', I dunno.

My guess: most regulars on this forum (say, the top 30 in terms of total posts) have played well over 100 shmups. Although my total post number is in the top 10, my shmup knowledge is in the third tier around here (at best), and I've played far more than 100 shmups.

[jp]

Wait wait, we're saying Zaxxon 3D is a shmup?

I don't see how that works. You have to line up with enemies whilst calculating the movement of the bullet along the z-axis to hit them. Therefore, with a heavy emphasis on the 3rd dimension, I wouldn't think Zaxxon would be a shmup. If anything I would think it would be closer akin to a rail-shooter.

[j^aws]

Wait wait, we're saying Zaxxon 3D is a shmup?

I don't see how that works. You have to line up with enemies whilst calculating the movement of the bullet along the z-axis to hit them. Therefore, with a heavy emphasis on the 3rd dimension, I wouldn't think Zaxxon would be a shmup. If anything I would think it would be closer akin to a rail-shooter.

I can make a case for it... but it involves science!

Science scares some people who don't understand it and are closed minded... and besides this thread may self-destruct if I did!

[Acid King]

I can make a case for it... but it involves science!

Science scares some people who don't understand it and are closed minded... and besides this thread may self-destruct if I did!

No shit. You can file that next to my scientific research that proves Cannibal Corpse is a grindcore band.

[j^aws]

I can make a case for it... but it involves science!

Science scares some people who don't understand it and are closed minded... and besides this thread may self-destruct if I did!

No shit. You can file that next to my scientific research that proves Cannibal Corpse is a grindcore band.

Actually it's really simple. But I couldn't get anyone to understand (AFAIK) what Mendeleev did with the Periodic Table... if you understand that, then you're halfway there because Zaxxon and rail-shooters have similar traits yet they are significantly different...

[God]

So, what's the situation? Are overhead run & guns allowed only if they autoscroll or are pushscrolls allowed in too because it seemed silly to include one type but not the other? (I'm not familiar with most of the example games and I can't tell how they scroll just by looking up screenshots.)

I think the big difference between traditional shmups and overhead Run & Gun is turning / shooting in more than one direction. That's why I think multi-directionals are their own branch on the family tree: asteroids, sinistar, defender, robotron, smashtv and overhead R&G.

@Turrican: please populate a shooter with the enemies from your drawings and release it - I will most certainly buy it.

If you're serious I know how an interested party could slap those pictures into an existing game very easily.

[j^aws]

So, what's the situation? Are overhead run & guns allowed only if they autoscroll or are pushscrolls allowed in too because it seemed silly to include one type but not the other? (I'm not familiar with most of the example games and I can't tell how they scroll just by looking up screenshots.)

Ikari Warriors is an overhead run 'n' gun with push-scroll and is allowed.

I think the big difference between traditional shmups and overhead Run & Gun is turning / shooting in more than one direction. That's why I think multi-directionals are their own branch on the family tree: asteroids, sinistar, defender, robotron, smashtv and overhead R&G.

I can see how you would branch them that way, especially if you mostly play traditional shmups.

I've played alot of Robotron and Stargate and I tend to split the branch with fixed-screen and scrolling shmups at the top of the hierarchy...

[Turrican]

Wait wait, we're saying Zaxxon 3D is a shmup?

I don't see how that works. You have to line up with enemies whilst calculating the movement of the bullet along the z-axis to hit them. Therefore, with a heavy emphasis on the 3rd dimension, I wouldn't think Zaxxon would be a shmup. If anything I would think it would be closer akin to a rail-shooter.

We're saying that Zaxxon isn't. But, due to forced scrolling, it has been granted a sort of exception status, so for example if you open a thread about Zaxxon I don't think mods will move it to OT. But if we look at it strictly, it's not. Please note however that so far we discussed Zaxxon, not Zaxxon 3D.

So, what's the situation? Are overhead run & guns allowed only if they autoscroll or are pushscrolls allowed in too because it seemed silly to include one type but not the other? (I'm not familiar with most of the example games and I can't tell how they scroll just by looking up screenshots.)

Here's the deal from what I gather: the exclusion trick is multiscrolling. You can have Commando, Mercs and Ikari (And YAY!! GUEVARA!) since they only scroll in a fixed path to vertical (iirc). And you can have the ones which don't really scroll at all: Robotron, Smash TV. The moment you're given multidirectional scrolling (Alien Breed, Chaos Engine) you cannot vote for them anymore. At least I think it works this way... Let's ask Zach to be sure.

...as you can see it's a very slim criteria. I hope they do revert to previous rules next year.

@Turrican: please populate a shooter with the enemies from your drawings and release it - I will most certainly buy it.

If you're serious I know how an interested party could slap those pictures into an existing game very easily.

Seriously guys... I'm not that good, am I?

[roker]

ok

what game did you guys play the most since the last time we did this vote?

now I don't mean your favorite, I mean your most played.

Mine was Garegga . . . but I still suck at it

I wish someone would release a SUPER HIGH quality superplay vid

the current Saturn one in Yoko is kind of tiny and hard to follow

[j^aws]

Arena shmups I've voted for:

- Stargate: Push-scroll, multi-drectional

- Robotron 2084: Fixed-screen

- Gundhara: Push-scroll and auto-scroll, multi-directional

- Bangai-O: Push-scroll, multi-directional

- SWAT (Sega/ Coreland '84): Push-scroll, multi-directional

- TNK III (SNK '85): Push-scroll, multi-directional

- Space Duel: Fixed-screen

- Solar Fox: Fixed-screen

- Ikari Warriors: Push-scroll, multi-directional

------------

...what game did you guys play the most since the last time we did this vote?
...

Same as previous years, Stargate. I don't think being good or bad at a shmup makes a difference. Afterall, you're free to choose what criteria and the weighting of said criteria, when you vote...

EDIT: Forgot Space Duel is fixed-screen.

[Arvandor]

I don't remember if I wasn't around on this forum for last year's vote, or just considered myself too inexperienced. I vaguely remember the top 25 thing though (the tables look familiar), so I'm assuming I just felt too inexperienced. Or just somehow stumbled accross one of the threads. I dunno =/ I was most certainly playing shmups though ^_^

I can't even begin to think of which shooter I've actually put the most time into this past year. Mars Matrix would PROBABLY be it, but it doesn't feel like it since I was only playing it for a couple months, whereas I've been playing ESPgaluda all year, just a lot more sporadically (mainly since I can't play non-DC shmups at work). I've probably dumped more time into Under Defeat than ESPgaluda as well, but again, only really played for a month or two. I've also been playing Dodonpachi sporadically for the past 6 months or so, but haven't really devoted much time to it. It's almost confusing for me to think about... I think I'm going to stop now.

[Krooze L-Roy]

Okay, this thread is a real beast, so forgive me for not wading through all the hardcore scientific theorising and whatnot. I just want to know if a few games are clear to vote for:
Star Fox 64, obvious "no" right? Have to ask.
Gyruss, crying shame if this one's off limits.
Axelay, okay, right?
Bangai-O, what's was the verdict on this one? Not a true shmup IMO, but moreso than Robotron et al.

Also, while I'm at it, here's a rant that's been stewing for a while:
I really really don't want to see Dodonpachi at number one again this year. There's no way in fucking hell that it's the best shmup of all time, not even close.
Personally, I think Cave shooters are about as drab as saltine crackers. And sure, like saltine crackers, they do hit the spot now and then (and, don't get me wrong, DDP will be on my list). But I mean damn, how can it beat out games from meat and potatoes developers like Treasure and Konami year after year?
Maybe I'm just too old school, too attached to the "set piece" school of shmuppage, but even after countless playthroughs of DDP, the levels just seem too homogenous and generic to me; no really memorable moments stand out. There's no pacing, no sense of adventure, no variety and not very much creativity overall. There's just too much going on at all times; too much shooting, too much dodging, too much goddamn neon, too few moments to crack your neck or blink your eyes.
And when I do manage to get into that zen-like state of blowing-everything-up, some practically invisible, thin-as-a-needle shot comes out of nowhere to pull the rug out from under me.
The whole experience comes off as sensory overload, and it's painful to think that a game with so little subtlety or charm is seen as being the peek of the genre.
[Rant over].

[Arvandor]

There's just too much going on at all times; too much shooting, too much dodging, too much goddamn neon, too few moments to crack your neck or blink your eyes.

These are hardly things I'd consider putting in the "con" column of shooter qualities =P If fact, the opposites of all those things are why I stopped playing Under Defeat. Not enough shooting, not enough dodging, don't care about the neon, too many moments to crack your neck and blink your eyes. After working on the 1cc for a couple weeks and getting extremely close, I started to space out while playing the same, and actually regressed in playing ability. Had to get back to something more manic.

Greatest shooter ever is a close call for me between a number of titles, and Dodonpachi is definitely one of those titles.

[Zach Keene]

Star Fox 64, obvious "no" right? Have to ask.
Gyruss, crying shame if this one's off limits.
Axelay, okay, right?
Bangai-O, what's was the verdict on this one? Not a true shmup IMO, but moreso than Robotron et al.

No, yes, yes, and what the hell (I seem to recall either Malc or Akira once saying they considered it a shmup, and with the arena shooter barrier removed...)

[Arvandor]

Wait, so you ARE accepting Bangai-O? If so, I'll have to go edit my list now. While not a traditional shooter, and very much a borderliner, I still consider it a shmup, and one of my favorites at that.

Actually, for me, the biggest argument against Bangai-O is the stage by stage progression. A 1cc just doesn't work for that game, which is the biggest seperation it has from other shooters. Not the arena movement, IMHO.

[Rob]

Is Ranger X eligible?

[Krooze L-Roy]

There's just too much going on at all times; too much shooting, too much dodging, too much goddamn neon, too few moments to crack your neck or blink your eyes.

These are hardly things I'd consider putting in the "con" column of shooter qualities =P If fact, the opposites of all those things are why I stopped playing Under Defeat. Not enough shooting, not enough dodging, don't care about the neon, too many moments to crack your neck and blink your eyes. After working on the 1cc for a couple weeks and getting extremely close, I started to space out while playing the same, and actually regressed in playing ability. Had to get back to something more manic.

Greatest shooter ever is a close call for me between a number of titles, and Dodonpachi is definitely one of those titles.

Balance and pacing issues can work both ways, I guess. In retrospect though, "too much shooting" and "too much dodging" are kinda assinine criticisms for a SHOOTER game, but I still think that having say, a long-ish pause before a boss (for example) will build up suspense and tension, and nonstop dodging just makes the game seem to blur together too much. I guess the game just isn't my style is all. Seems to basic to me.

[Arvandor]

It's fairly basic, but that's part of the charm. Also, the scoring system is NOT so basic =P Simple, but insanely difficult to execute, which is also a very good thing in my mind.

There's a big enough pause before the boss fight. Quite perfect in fact. Not so short that you're dodging bullets before you're prepared, but not so long that you feel like you're waiting for the boss to show up. It sits there and has vocals saying warning, warning, the boss is approaching etc. And then of course you can blink moisture into your eyes between stages before diving back into the intense action.

Of course, different strokes for different folks. It's part of the reason for having a big vote-off on favorite shooters ^_^ Everyone has their peeves with certain companies that many others worship. Take me for example, I'm not a big fan of Raizing for the most part; though I do like Soukyugurentai. There are people who hate Cave, people who think Treasure is overrated, people who don't like Psikyo, so on and so fourth.

[j^aws]

Do Senko No Ronde and Psychic Force 2 both have a 'guard' button/ function

A differentiator perhaps...

[Dale]

Is Ranger X eligible?

I might need to change my list.

[1] [Ranger-X]

My secound favirit game of all time.

[szycag]

lol someone voted robotron 64. hey different strokes and all, but i think we can universally agree this box art is just silly

[j^aws]

Datastorm - another arena shmup I forgot to vote for. A defender clone with auto-thrust, instead of manual thrust, and has gravity...

[Turrican]

Datastorm - another arena shmup I forgot to vote for. A defender clone with auto-thrust, instead of manual thrust, and has gravity...

Look, I don't think anyone here consider Defender/stargate/Fantasy Zone/Datastorm/Starray arena shmups, besides you.

Just because you are given two directions to scroll it doesn't make them arena shmups. Your ship still has a forward shot as primary weapon. (and not eight directions to shoot it around)

Just to clarify.

[j^aws]

^^

Arena Shooter: (also Free-Roaming Shooter) A shooting game, usually “top-down” oriented, which takes place within a confined area, sometimes consisting of separate, linked “rooms,” through which the player usually progresses manually, at his own pace, rather than having a scrolling screen to “nudge” him along, although there is often a time limit in play. Smash T.V. is one example. Not considered “pure” shmups by some players; sometimes grouped under borderliners.

Shmup: Short for “shoot-‘em-up.” Semi-official classification for video games in which a large amount of shooting is involved, and the gameplay is executed in a 2-dimensional style (though the graphical objects onscreen can be 3-D), and controlled strictly from a third-person perspective. Most shmups automatically scroll the background in a certain direction to create the impression of movement as the player progresses, and involve taking control of a plane or spacecraft (as such they are sometimes called “Space Shooters”), as well as collecting various power-ups,, but there are many, many exceptions to and variation on this. Though some use the term “shooter” by itself to refer to shmups (in Japan, in fact, shmups are usually called “Shooting Games,” or “STG’s” for short), this sometimes gets them confused with first-person shooters or light gun shooters.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=9665

@Turrican: You carry on with your Venn diagrams et al... I'll use my own definitions for an arena shmup as noted by the glossary...

[Turrican]

Arena Shooter: (also Free-Roaming Shooter) A shooting game, usually “top-down” oriented, which takes place within a confined area, sometimes consisting of separate, linked “rooms,” through which the player usually progresses manually, at his own pace, rather than having a scrolling screen to “nudge” him along, although there is often a time limit in play. Smash T.V. is one example. Not considered “pure” shmups by some players; sometimes grouped under borderliners.

Let me see...

"also free-roaming" = this hardly matches with Defender's kind of weaponry, which is always straightforward.

"usually top-down oriented" = self-explanatory

"take place within a confined area" = very vague. It could be argued that even a Raiden or Gradius stage is a confined area, since it does in fact end after the boss. In a sense, making the plane surface a cylinder makes the area endless, not confined... (at least in the sense of scrolling)

"separate linked rooms" = self-explanatory

"the player progresses at its own pace" = good line, clearly more suited to walking sprites instead than the Defender ships.

As always, the conclusion is that you are reading literally a geometrical definition and including in it everything that fits the criteria. That, and you don't take into account that judging from perspective criteria alone there's basically no difference between Stargate and Scramble. The very same perspective that, oh my, happens to be top-down in all the arena shooters.

Shmup: Short for “shoot-‘em-up.” Semi-official classification for video games in which a large amount of shooting is involved, and the gameplay is executed in a 2-dimensional style (though the graphical objects onscreen can be 3-D), and controlled strictly from a third-person perspective. Most shmups automatically scroll the background in a certain direction to create the impression of movement as the player progresses, and involve taking control of a plane or spacecraft (as such they are sometimes called “Space Shooters”), as well as collecting various power-ups,, but there are many, many exceptions to and variation on this. Though some use the term “shooter” by itself to refer to shmups (in Japan, in fact, shmups are usually called “Shooting Games,” or “STG’s” for short), this sometimes gets them confused with first-person shooters or light gun shooters.

There is not a single line in this definition that rules out Defender, as you can see. Even the automatic scrolling is countered by that "Most" - which is rightly there to allow in proto-shmups and cylindric games.

Also, although the cylinder has a finite area, the impression* highlighted above is evident in Datastorm-like games. Exactly the opposite of top-down, Robotron-like games.

@Turrican: You carry on with your Venn diagrams et al... I'll use my own definitions for an arena shmup as noted by the glossary...

Of course, do as you please. I'm here since a little earlier than you, I just thought to point out to you that no one in this forum has ever put Defender in the arena family. Just to avoid further misunderstandings, of course.

[j^aws]

^^ Sorry dude, I'm not interested in re-engaging into another discussion with YOU on this matter after what's been said in this thread and your lack of reading skills. Again, no offence, I have better things to do.

[Turrican]

^^ Sorry dude, I'm not interested in re-engaging into another discussion with YOU on this matter after what's been said in this thread and your lack of reading skills. Again, no offence, I have better things to do.

Again, don't worry - no need to say sorry. I am not writing for you. If you don't read me, fine. The important is to point out your blatant errors (imho) so that everyone else who reads has an alternative and can form his/her opinion by confronting our two stances.

[j^aws]

@BulletMagnet

I can see all the hard work that has been put into the unofficial glossary. My hats off to you and all involved.

However, some parts are clearly open to *different* interpretations and others assuming things that aren't clearly defined... e.g. the 'subject' when free-roaming; is it the weapon or the characters? etc...

Is there a deadline before it goes official? Just curious...