Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[__SKYe]

So, today I plugged ninja gaiden for the 1st time in a couple months, to give it a few playthroughs.
Managed to reach the first boss of Act 6 again, and surprisingly enough, beat it in one shot.
Not only that but I now have a strategy to pretty much no-damage him, though of course, I'm sure all of you guys do too.

Obviously lost to the 2nd boss. Twice.
I can sorta avoid his projectiles, but slashing him is another story altogether. Most of the times I tried to slash him, his fireballs linger around the screen longer than I care for. Guess I need to come up with a decent strategy for him.

On the good side though, I can pretty easily reach Act 6, and somewhat consistently reach 5-3.
On 6-2, which previously was a f***ing nightmare, I can know pass through most of the time (bar the ever-so-present pit-falling death, of course).

Stage 6-3 is so-so until the last screen, right before the boss.
That part is easily the hardest "stage" section in the game, in my opinion.

The only other shaky part is this one:



Here, I always drop off the ledge, and press back shortly after, and hope that Ryu doesn't either fall into the pit or grabs the wall too high, in which case I can't reach the lower platform.
is there any other way to do it more consistently?
I don't really want to watch any videos, as I've yet to beat the game, and want to do it (mostly) on my own.

Now, this is probably f***ing stupid, since I can't even clear the game, but I've been playing the entire game so far without using any sub-weapons, bar once in Act 2-2, because I cannot avoid picking up the flame powerup while slashind a baddie.

Stupid, I know, but it does make the game *that* much more interesting, since you do need to get up close and personal to dispatch each and every enemy.

Anyway, things are progressing, and I'm actually pretty happy that, despite not playing for these couple months (and given that I don't really have that much previously experience with it), I still remember most of it.

Byt the way BIL, you mentioned Balloon Fight's ballon trip mode. What is your score on that?
So far, I can barely beat the default hi-score, as it gets pretty though pretty soon.

[Shoryukev]

What I usually do on that section of 5-2 is I drop down and grab the left wall high, then fall a bit and grab it again. I've also heard from a few people here that you can just wall-jump up the right and when you get to the top of the screen it will let you through. I tried it and it worked, but I also somehow managed to fall into the pit below anyways LOL

As far as Jaquio's second form, that was the hardest part of the game for me....that and the very last part of 6-3. The best advice I have is to take it very slow when you reach the last screen of 6-3 and memorize the enemy spawn patterns and their behavior. Make it to the bossroom......but don't go inside, walk back as far as you want and then try again. The enemies respawn so you'll get another look at the patterns of the enemies. Do this over and over till you die....waste a few continues learning it. Once you're able to get back to Jaquio with full health your life will be much easier!

Dodging the fireballs is a little tricky, they have the same pattern as our beloved eagles. I find that sometimes jumping right when they pass by you can get out of the way.....as long as you immediately land on the bottom of the screen so they still fly off the edge and disappear. You can also usually manage to stand right in the middle of the two fireballs if you position yourself just right. The fireballs themselves only do one bar of damage each time, so you have plenty of opportunity for mistakes and still win! Bumping into Jaquio in the air on the other hand takes much more damage.

Take your time and you'll get it. If I can do it so can you! Just look at how many times I got hit here LOL

Ultimately Ninja Gaiden is not over until you admit defeat. For the longest time I let myself get angered by the viscous act 6 loop and just rushed my way back to Jaquio as fast as I could.......I never came close to beating him until I slowed down and mastered act 6.

EDIT: PS - Also remember that the fireballs can be slashed......for some reason when they start to circle around me sometimes I forget that I can take them out without getting them to exit the edge of the screen.

[BIL]

So, today I plugged ninja gaiden for the 1st time in a couple months, to give it a few playthroughs.
Managed to reach the first boss of Act 6 again, and surprisingly enough, beat it in one shot.
Not only that but I now have a strategy to pretty much no-damage him, though of course, I'm sure all of you guys do too.

Provided you're quick at single-wall climbing, Masked Devil is pretty much a freebie - even sans subweapons. Get your hits in on the orb, then scramble up to the ceiling when he gets too close for comfort. Jump over him to the floor and repeat on the other side of the room. Jumpslash will simplify things even further ofc. ;3

Been playing lots of Zelda II lately, incidentally. I so wish Ryu vs Joe had been a duel against an agile, relentless attacker ala the Great Palace's "Fokker" bird knights.

Obviously lost to the 2nd boss. Twice.
I can sorta avoid his projectiles, but slashing him is another story altogether. Most of the times I tried to slash him, his fireballs linger around the screen longer than I care for. Guess I need to come up with a decent strategy for him.

Jaquio OTOH is a deceptively technical boss - and you'll be sans subweapon, unless you've eaten a tiring Boss Rush Knockback™. You need to quickly plot an entry and exit for each sword strike, lest you get swarmed and beaten down by the flames. Lots has been written in this thread - here's my own contribution in case it's ever needed. ;3 Basically, if you're handling him right, you shouldn't have flames on your tail much if at all.

On the good side though, I can pretty easily reach Act 6, and somewhat consistently reach 5-3.
On 6-2, which previously was a f***ing nightmare, I can know pass through most of the time (bar the ever-so-present pit-falling death, of course).

Stage 6-3 is so-so until the last screen, right before the boss.
That part is easily the hardest "stage" section in the game, in my opinion.

6-2 and 6-3's chokepoints are incredibly unforgiving to improv, but on the upside they're generally quite static and manipulable. For the very last barrage of enemy spawns in 6-3, I find it helps to creep forward so they won't all rush you at once.

The only other shaky part is this one:

[5-2 cliff drop]

Here, I always drop off the ledge, and press back shortly after, and hope that Ryu doesn't either fall into the pit or grabs the wall too high, in which case I can't reach the lower platform.
is there any other way to do it more consistently?
I don't really want to watch any videos, as I've yet to beat the game, and want to do it (mostly) on my own.

Ah, this bit is possibly the nastiest thing in the game. You can actually skip the falling phase entirely via a simple glitch, but I'll say no more to avoid spoiling. I'm consistent enough that I don't really worry about doing it the "conventional" way - however, I always take the following precautions:

1) walk off the ledge - don't try to jump.
2) quickly pull back, to grab the wall. You'll be too high to make the jump over, but also not dead.
3) from there, nudge down the wall in small increments. This takes practice, as does single-wall movement in general... with experience you should find the proper depth easier to gauge. You don't need to be too far down, to make it under the overhang.

Not easy, but much safer than attempting it in one sweep (drop, grab, leap over). I do this when I'm feeling cocky and/or playing screwy.

Now, this is probably f***ing stupid, since I can't even clear the game, but I've been playing the entire game so far without using any sub-weapons, bar once in Act 2-2, because I cannot avoid picking up the flame powerup while slashind a baddie.

It's your call, of course, but I'd honestly recommend just enjoying the subweapons. The flexibility they allow is a nice bit of contrast with the sword, imo. And prolonging the windmill shuriken's boomerang effect is simply one of the coolest little things in all of 2D action.

Stupid, I know, but it does make the game *that* much more interesting, since you do need to get up close and personal to dispatch each and every enemy.

Have you played Ninja Gaiden III (NES, not Famicom)? Toe-to-toe slashing is a big part of that game's appeal for me - the total opposite of Ninja Gaiden II's subweapon blunderbuss, basically. Even playing with full subweapon use, you'll need to be adept at slashing enemies down.

Byt the way BIL, you mentioned Balloon Fight's ballon trip mode. What is your score on that?
So far, I can barely beat the default hi-score, as it gets pretty though pretty soon.

I think I made it to 400k on my best attempt - haven't really gone at it seriously yet, it's more something I put on for an instant dose of arcade tension. It's seriously one of the best games ever in this regard, imo. I'm actually not sure if the score rolls or counterstops, all I know is it's pretty intense racking it up! And yet, I also find it weirdly relaxing and therapeutic for more casual play. When nothing's really on the line, you've just gotta laugh when poor Balloon Guy gets brutally fried and drowned. BZZZZZZ weoooooo (getting eaten by the fish OTOH? that shit always makes me go "FUUUCK!" - usually while yanking the controller upward. that won't help btw )

Knocking over the default #1 rank is a snap if you can trigger at least the first score multiplier (don't let any balloons escape; do it again for an even bigger multiplier). I looove this mechanic, kinda Raiden Fighters-esque thrill in setting it up.

[__SKYe]

What I usually do on that section of 5-2 is I drop down and grab the left wall high, then fall a bit and grab it again. I've also heard from a few people here that you can just wall-jump up the right and when you get to the top of the screen it will let you through. I tried it and it worked, but I also somehow managed to fall into the pit below anyways LOL

Oh, crap, I totally forgot about that. I somehow always got the felling that slowly dropping down while grabbing a wall would make Ryu fall to his doom.
I also have to try climbing the top of the wall.

As far as Jaquio's second form, that was the hardest part of the game for me....that and the very last part of 6-3.

I'm pretty sure it will also the the hardest part for me, but I've yet to reach his 2nd form.

The best advice I have is to take it very slow when you reach the last screen of 6-3 and memorize the enemy spawn patterns and their behavior.
Make it to the bossroom......but don't go inside, walk back as far as you want and then try again. The enemies respawn so you'll get another look at the patterns of the enemies. Do this over and over till you die....waste a few continues learning it. Once you're able to get back to Jaquio with full health your life will be much easier!

Now this is a very fine idea. Sometime I really want to smack myself for not thinking stuff like this earlier.
For the first part of 6-3 I just run from all enemies, and immediately wall jump the first wall that appears.
The problem then, is after that. For now this is the most shaky part in my game.
Sometimes I reach the boss with half health, other times I don't reach him at all.

Dodging the fireballs is a little tricky, they have the same pattern as our beloved eagles. I find that sometimes jumping right when they pass by you can get out of the way.....as long as you immediately land on the bottom of the screen so they still fly off the edge and disappear. You can also usually manage to stand right in the middle of the two fireballs if you position yourself just right. The fireballs themselves only do one bar of damage each time, so you have plenty of opportunity for mistakes and still win! Bumping into Jaquio in the air on the other hand takes much more damage.

Yeah, I can more or less avoid the fireballs IF I don't jump to attack him, because then some of his fireballs won't leave the screen, and they quickly pile up.
I guess I just need more practice.

EDIT: PS - Also remember that the fireballs can be slashed......for some reason when they start to circle around me sometimes I forget that I can take them out without getting them to exit the edge of the screen.

Ha, this I didn't know. I thought they were indestructible.
It's good to know, when you're in a bind.

Take your time and you'll get it. If I can do it so can you! Just look at how many times I got hit here LOL

Ultimately Ninja Gaiden is not over until you admit defeat. For the longest time I let myself get angered by the viscous act 6 loop and just rushed my way back to Jaquio as fast as I could.......I never came close to beating him until I slowed down and mastered act 6.

Very true, and I don't intend to quit, I just need plenty of time and patience.
I wanna be a part of the NINJA RYUKENDEN TASK FORCE.

Thanks for the tips, I really appreciate it.

By the way, is the requirement to be a part of the elite taskforce a 'any continues' complete, or 1CC (aka no continues)?

EDIT: Sorry BIL, missed your post by a little bit, so I'll edit this one instead of double posting.

Provided you're quick at single-wall climbing, Masked Devil is pretty much a freebie - even sans subweapons. Get your hits in on the orb, then scramble up to the ceiling when he gets too close for comfort. Jump over him to the floor and repeat on the other side of the room. Jumpslash will simplify things even further ofc. ;3

Haha, this is exactly what I did.
Quite my chance , mind you, because I could see no other way to go past that huge damage radius of his.

6-2 and 6-3's chokepoints are incredibly unforgiving to improv, but on the upside they're generally quite static and manipulable. For the very last barrage of enemy spawns in 6-3, I find it helps to creep forward so they won't all rush you at once.

Yeah, 6-2 I can kinda do properly now, but 6-3 is a major pain in the ass. So far, on that last stretch, I'm running for my life, just trying to reach the damn door before they kill me.

Ah, this bit is possibly the nastiest thing in the game. You can actually skip the falling phase entirely via a simple glitch, but I'll say no more to avoid spoiling. I'm consistent enough that I don't really worry about doing it the "conventional" way - however, I always take the following precautions:

1) walk off the ledge - don't try to jump.
2) quickly pull back, to grab the wall. You'll be too high to make the jump over, but also not dead.
3) from there, nudge down the wall in small increments. This takes practice, as does single-wall movement in general... with experience you should find the proper depth easier to gauge. You don't need to be too far down, to make it under the overhang.

Not easy, but much safer than attempting it in one sweep (drop, grab, leap over). I do this when I'm feeling cocky and/or playing screwy.

The 'drop, grab, leap over' is what I've been doing so far, but 2 out of 3 times I end up falling into the pit.
I'll try the small increments tactic both you and Shoryukev described.

It's your call, of course, but I'd honestly recommend just enjoying the subweapons. The flexibility they allow is a nice bit of contrast with the sword, imo. And prolonging the windmill shuriken's boomerang effect is simply one of the coolest little things in all of 2D action.

Yes, you're absolutely right, and to be honest, beating a game using all the tools provided is what I always do, when playing a game I've yet to clear.
It's just, in this case, since I've come so far already, it makes me feel like I'll lose *something* if I start using subweapons now.
This *something* is, of course, some stupid notion of pride/ego/whatever.
Very stupid I know, but...

Have you played Ninja Gaiden III (NES, not Famicom)? Toe-to-toe slashing is a big part of that game's appeal for me - the total opposite of Ninja Gaiden II's subweapon blunderbuss, basically. Even playing with full subweapon use, you'll need to be adept at slashing enemies down.

No, I've only played the first one so far.
I intended to try clearing them in order, so I'm waiting to clear this one first.

I think I made it to 400k on my best attempt - haven't really gone at it seriously yet, it's more something I put on for an instant dose of arcade tension. It's seriously one of the best games ever in this regard, imo. I'm actually not sure if the score rolls or counterstops, all I know is it's pretty intense racking it up! And yet, I also find it weirdly relaxing and therapeutic for more casual play. When nothing's really on the line, you've just gotta laugh when poor Balloon Guy gets brutally fried and drowned. BZZZZZZ weoooooo (getting eaten by the fish OTOH? that shit always makes me go "FUUUCK!" - usually while yanking the controller upward. that won't help btw )

Knocking over the default #1 rank is a snap if you can trigger at least the first score multiplier (don't let any balloons escape; do it again for an even bigger multiplier). I looove this mechanic, kinda Raiden Fighters-esque thrill in setting it up.

Damn, that's still a lot.
I didn't even know there was a score multiplier for picking all the balloons.
And yes, playing for score (trying to pick all the balloons) gets quite a tad harder than just trying not to get fried, which isn't quite easy either.

[BIL]

By the way, is the requirement to be a part of the elite taskforce a 'any continues' complete, or 1CC (aka no continues)?

Just reach the ending credits. By doing that alone, you will have proven yourself a hardier gamer than the crying weenie manbabies who infest the internet.

In all seriousness, the whole task force thing was a joke I started when another member went into a multi-day thermonuclear rage over NG, and I wanted to point out myself and many others had cleared it without going insane in the process. We're more a "competent squad" than an elite one.

I do think it's important to debunk the popular myths around these oldschool games, however. Stuff like NG, Castlevania and (as you know) Contra tend to get talked up as mercilessly cheap/obtuse ballbreakers. They're not, they're actually quite friendly as long as you don't try to brute-force 'em. :O

If anyone really wants their balls broken by a Famicom sidescroller, they can fire up Holy Diver and get back to us.

[Shoryukev]

I'm pretty sure it will also the the hardest part for me, but I've yet to reach his 2nd form.

Sorry I meant to say the 2nd boss where he's shooting the fireballs at you while flying back and forth on the top of the screen...you're already there and it's the climax of difficulty for probably all of us. The final boss is a total pushover, I beat it the first time I tried it.....it's sort of a "victory lap"

Stuff like NG, Castlevania and (as you know) Contra tend to get talked up as mercilessly cheap ballbreakers. They're not, they're actually quite friendly!

When I die in any of those games it's always my fault. While they are not easy games, they definitely are not cheap. I'm nowhere near an expert on Contra, but I play CV and NJ alot........and the attention to detail put into those games always puts a smile on my face. Most everything in CV and NJ is very deliberate and I like that. I've especially been enjoying NJ lately since it takes my time tested favorite (CV) and adds a bit of speed and twitch reflex, sidescrolling action royalty at it's finest!

[__SKYe]

Ah, crap, I just updated my post to avoid double posting, but you've replied already.

Just reach the ending credits. By doing that alone, you will have proven yourself a hardier gamer than the crying weenie manbabies who infest the internet. Image

That's good to know.
A proper 1CC would take quite a bit longer.

In all seriousness, the whole task force thing was a joke I started when another member went into a multi-day thermonuclear rage over NG, and I wanted to point out myself and many others had cleared it without going insane in the process. We're more a "competent squad" than an elite one.

I do think it's important to debunk the popular myths around these oldschool games, however. Stuff like NG, Castlevania and (as you know) Contra tend to get talked up as mercilessly cheap/obtuse ballbreakers. They're not, they're actually quite friendly as long as you don't try to brute-force 'em. :O

Hey, in my view, if such a 'taskforce' makes someone, like myself, try even harder to clear Ninja Gaiden (and other hardcore games) just to be a part of it, then it is something worthwhile.

Sorry I meant to say the 2nd boss where he's shooting the fireballs at you while flying back and forth on the top of the screen...you're already there and it's the climax of difficulty for probably all of us. The final boss is a total pushover, I beat it the first time I tried it.....it's sort of a "victory lap"

Oh, I always had the impression that the last boss was the hardest.
But then again, I never actually fought it, and only have second (or third) hand experience.

If anyone really wants their balls broken by a Famicom sidescroller, they can fire up Holy Diver and get back to us.

Will have to try that one... Eventually.

[Shoryukev]

Oh, I always had the impression that the last boss was the hardest.
But then again, I never actually fought it, and only have second (or third) hand experience.

It seems to be fairly common with NES games. It almost seems like the programmers are trolling you, you work so hard to reach the end and the game devs are like "they'll never get this far anyways. Put some generic boss at the end and don't bother proofreading the ending."

As far as Holy Diver, I've only played my reproduction NES cart a bit. It is indeed pretty damn hard, and while I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong.....once I saw the posts here about the dropped inputs I knew that's what I was feeling.

One of these days I'll probably tackle it for real, but it is a little low on my priority list. Lately I've been in the mood to dust off games from my childhood I could never beat and put them to rest (TMNT #1 on NES isn't nearly as bad as I remember, though a little deceitful in its platforming).

[BIL]

Stuff like NG, Castlevania and (as you know) Contra tend to get talked up as mercilessly cheap ballbreakers. They're not, they're actually quite friendly!

When I die in any of those games it's always my fault. While they are not easy games, they definitely are not cheap. I'm nowhere near an expert on Contra, but I play CV and NJ alot........and the attention to detail put into those games always puts a smile on my face. Most everything in CV and NJ is very deliberate and I like that. I've especially been enjoying NJ lately since it takes my time tested favorite (CV) and adds a bit of speed and twitch reflex, sidescrolling action royalty at it's finest!

Contra's the easiest of those three by some distance, imo - the instant respawns and frequent 1UPs alone take a lot of pressure off, and you also enjoy more mobility and way bigger firepower. The one-hit kills are scary at first, but they're more than compensated for by the above.

It'll still beat down a poor player though! See the James & Mike ep where our heroes meet their end at a proximity-activated ceiling flare. From a more casual, nostalgist perspective, I like those guys' goofy escapades... but out on the hellish battlefield, feels ain't enough!

Spoiler

^ god I love that look of absolute horror

Yeah, 6-2 I can kinda do properly now, but 6-3 is a major pain in the ass. So far, on that last stretch, I'm running for my life, just trying to reach the damn door before they kill me.

That's actually not the worst strategy on a first run, since you'll get all your HP back for the Masked Devil (unless I am horribly mis-remembering things... I know for sure you get an HP refill/subweapon confiscation for Jaquio).

Ah, crap, I just updated my post to avoid double posting, but you've replied already.

Haha, it's cool. ^_~

Will have to try that one... Eventually.

I honestly don't recommend Holy Diver seriously, at least not without serious caveats. The game design is generally excellent, and it's most definitely an intense challenge... sadly, it then piles a couple of horrible bugs on top, in the form of input drops and brutal flicker. It's a real nightmare, as is. There's still fun to be had, but the amount of tolerance required will be easily too much for many, and rightly so.

It makes for great war stories though.

In my experience, the best hard sidescrolling action on the system is Ninja Gaiden III (NES), Castlevania III Loop 2 (NES) and Metal Storm Loop 2. All of these are rock hard and rock solid.

[__SKYe]

One of these days I'll probably tackle it for real, but it is a little low on my priority list. Lately I've been in the mood to dust off games from my childhood I could never beat and put them to rest (TMNT #1 on NES isn't nearly as bad as I remember, though a little deceitful in its platforming).

I feel you, there's a boatload of game I want to beat, that's not even funny.
So far, I've always been, unconsciously, avoiding the old-school action games (aka 'challenging'), and postponing them indefinitely.
So, personally, apart from the satisfaction of clearing a challenging game, it also makes me feel like I'm growing as a *proper* gamer.

On the other hand, having that many good games on the backlog, just means that there won't be any shortage of good and fun challenges anytime soon.

One game I've somewhat recently beat, and one that I have fond memories, but utterly crushed me, was Streets of Rage (MD).
So far, I've beaten the game in both Easy and Normal using all 3 characters, so I'm pretty pleased.

It'll still beat down a poor player though! See the James & Mike ep where our heroes meet their end at a proximity-activated ceiling flare. From a more casual, nostalgist perspective, I love those guys' goofy escapades... but out on the hellish battlefield, feels ain't enough!

^ god I love that look of absolute horror

Haha, their reaction is indeed funny, but it is even more so, because that 2nd phase is actually pretty easy.

That's actually not the worst strategy on a first run, since you'll get all your HP back for the Masked Devil (unless I am horribly mis-remembering things... I know for sure you get an HP refill/subweapon confiscation for Jaquio).

Yeah, you get a refill indeed.

I honestly don't recommend Holy Diver seriously, at least not without serious caveats. The game design is generally excellent, and it's most definitely an intense challenge... sadly, it then piles a couple of horrible bugs on top, in the form of input drops and brutal flicker. It's a real nightmare, as is. There's still fun to be had, but the amount of tolerance required will be easily too much for many, and rightly so.

Yeah, I'll postpone it until I'm more battle hardened.

[Shoryukev]

That look of terror is quite hilarious, BILs gif's never disappoint LOL

[soprano1]

You guys might like this fangame, Megaman 2.5D: http://petersjostrand.com/index.php

[Vanguard]

Maze Of Galious also inspired the (similar) indie game La Mulana.

I've played that. Lots of things to like about it, but I ended up dropping it because too many of the puzzles felt like guesswork.

Here, I always drop off the ledge, and press back shortly after, and hope that Ryu doesn't either fall into the pit or grabs the wall too high, in which case I can't reach the lower platform.
is there any other way to do it more consistently?
I don't really want to watch any videos, as I've yet to beat the game, and want to do it (mostly) on my own.

Super easy, reliable method:

Spoiler

Climb up the wall past the top of the screen and hold right. You'll go over the wall and land on the lower platform.

[__SKYe]

F*** yeah, finally done the deed!!!



Spent around 4 hours to finally beat the damn Jaquio.

Now, please allow me a little ranting.

I previously had a tough time beating boss #2, because indeed I had yet to see through his patterns, but also for another reason.
For some reason, everytime I reached it, I seemed to die a little too fast. Now, I did get hit a lot, but as Shoryukev said, the fireballs do only 1HP of damage, so it seemed odd. On the 5~6th attempt, after becoming a little more comfortable with his patterns, I noticed that after getting hit once, I had lost 3HP, which is when it dawned on me the reason why I was dying so fast.
The fireballs do indeed 1HP of damage, but touching him does 3HP, and I was touching him most of the times I tried slashing him.
After this realization, sure enough, it took me 2 tries to beat him.
And in the 1st time, I lost because time was running out, so I kinda panicked and tried to rush it, only to die when he had 1HP left.

Then for the last form, it took me 3 tries.

The first time, I immediatelly started slashing the head, which seemed the most obvious spot for doing damage, but as I was glancing at the boss' HP bar, I noticed I wasn't doing any damage.
So I figured the 'core' was the weak point, and tried to slash it, but lost a lot of HP in the process, as I was touching the head.
Only a bit later, before I died, did the head fall off, after slashing it enough.
So I figured you have to kill the head firsty, and then slash the core.
Which is exactly what I did on the 2nd attempt. The problem there, was that the little tail was in the way, as you can't reach the core without touching the tail, unless you jump, which in turn is pretty slow and dangerous.
Without much surprise, I lost. But then I remembered, just as have to kill the head, maybe the tail works the same way.
And thankfully, that was indeed the case, and on the 3rd attempt, I won.

Honestly, when I lost the 2nd time, because the tail was in the way, I was already preparing myself for another loooooong fight against this boss.

But damn, finally did it, so I'm damn pleased right now.
Thanks you guys for all the tips.

Climb up the wall past the top of the screen and hold right. You'll go over the wall and land on the lower platform.

Yeah, Shoryukev gave the same idea before, and that's actually what I've started doing.
The main care to have with it is, to be fast to wall jump climb, so that the eagle doesn't hit you, and when you're at the top and about to jump over the wall, to actually do a good jump, or you'll fall short of the platform, and die.

I've played that. Lots of things to like about it, but I ended up dropping it because too many of the puzzles felt like guesswork.

Have you played the 1st release (the one that looks like an MSX game), or the re-release?

Mind you, I don't know myself, since I'didn't yet reach too far into the re-release, and I've never played the original, but apparently, from what I read, one of the things that they changed for the re-release was removing/reducing the guesswork needed for some of the puzzles. Again, I'm not certain, but from the look of it, most people had that exact issue with the game.

Yesterday, I played Maze Of Galious for a bit, and even knowing that La-Mulana was inspired by it, it was pretty interesting to know that La-Mulana's mechanics are pretty much a carbon copy of Maze Of Galious'. The way that, if you jump straight up, you can only change the direction of it when you start falling, the way you fall straight down when you walk off a platform, and even that you can't walk of stairs midway (you have toclimb them up/down all the way.
I mean, I knew that Maze Of Galious inspired it, but didn't know the actual extent it did.

The most annoying thing in Maze Of Galious that I encountered in the bit I played, is that in some areas, the bats are almost completely obfuscated by the background. You can barely tell they're there until they start moving.
I guess this was a common problem with limited color palettes, but even so...

You guys might like this fangame, Megaman 2.5D: http://petersjostrand.com/index.php

Hadn't heard about that one before, so I'll have a look.

There's also a pretty good 'semi-official' MegaMan game called MegaMan x Street Fighter.
I say 'semi', because it was developed by an indie dev, but Capcom acknowledged it, and provides it for download on their webpage (which you can find here).

The only problem, is that I can't run it on my PC (which has Win10). It runs very slowly, and is unplayable.

This seems to be a proble with most GameMaker type games I try, like for example Hydora.
That's one I really wanted to play, but can't get it to run properly.

Well, time to think about the next challenge to tackle, haha.

[Shoryukev]

F*** yeah, finally done the deed!!!

Good job! Bumping into Jaquio in the air was a bit of a problem for me too, but glad to see you figured it out and the beast is now slain!

[__SKYe]

F*** yeah, finally done the deed!!!

Good job! Bumping into Jaquio in the air was a bit of a problem for me too, but glad to see you figured it out and the beast is now slain!

Haha, thanks. The first few times, I was so focused on trying to slash him and not get hit by the fireballs, that I didn't even had time to look at the HP bar.

[BIL]

Welcome aboard.

Somehow I'd totally missed/forgot Jaquio himself did 3HP damage; that's nasty indeed. I liked reading about the Jashin fight from a fresh perspective - there's quite a bit of shielding to get through while evading his painful, random 3HP mortars. Besides Jaquio's masterful minimalist design, it's easily the most interesting threat in the generally weak NG1 boss lineup. Basically a body-armoured, turbocharged lobber enemy. Just one additional complication (say a fast, rare targeted strike) would've put it over the edge to greatness imo. Or even a couple pits.

Ninja Gaiden II's penultimate boss does the former, kind of. Fast-paced RNG bullet rain with periodic blasts from the core... not targeted, but with the design interplay, they don't need to be. Painful 3HP hit that forces players out of sword range and possibly into the rainfall. I really like this boss.

Incidentally, Jashin's decapitated head is NG1's sole unavoidable hit (outside of TASing, or a retry packing a meaty subweapon). Good job it only does 1HP... the thought of someone losing their last hitpoint to it is kinda sadistically funny ("try again ol' chum!"), but 3 would really be taking the piss. Now I'm imagining it doing ten or something...

[Shoryukev]

That 2nd boss at the end of NG1 is one of those things where you can watch someone who knows what they're doing and it looks incredibly easy.....but then you hand the controller to someone who's green and they instantly fall. It's deceivably simplistic.....you've got this hulking form in the air moving back and forth, and he shoots two fireballs with a predictable timing. Piece of cake right??????......nope

The layout of the platforms in the room makes it tricky at first to be able to strike Jaquio and return to the bottom. Combine that with the "eagle" behavior of the fireballs themselves and you've got yourself a white-knuckle drive to the finish! Truly a well thought out, fantastic battle.

[__SKYe]

Welcome aboard.

Somehow I'd totally missed/forgot Jaquio himself did 3HP damage; that's nasty indeed. I liked reading about the Jashin fight from a fresh perspective - there's quite a bit of shielding to get through while evading his painful, random 3HP mortars.

Thanks, it's good to be aboard.

Amusingly enough, the hardest part of the last boss is before you actually destroy both body parts (the head and the tail).
After that, when staying right in front of the core (on slashing range), if I'm not mistaken, only one the projectiles can hit you (the one that falls straight down).
That's not to say that's it's "easy", but, in my opinion, is much better that slashing him and retreating, only to be showered with a barrage of projectiles.
This last part, to me, is much like the thunder boss (on Act 5). You slash the damn thing and hopefully he'll die before you (altough I can consistently beat the Act 5 boss).

Incidentally, Jashin's decapitated head is NG1's sole unavoidable hit

I actually wondered about this too, as it seemed that the head was a bit too big to jump over, but I figured I'd better take the hit, and rush to destroy the tail as soon as possible instead of trying to avoid it.
Honestly at that point, I just wantred to beat the damn thing.

That 2nd boss at the end of NG1 is one of those things where you can watch someone who knows what they're doing and it looks incredibly easy.....but then you hand the controller to someone who's green and they instantly fall. It's deceivably simplistic.....you've got this hulking form in the air moving back and forth, and he shoots two fireballs with a predictable timing. Piece of cake right??????......nope

The layout of the platforms in the room makes it tricky at first to be able to strike Jaquio and return to the bottom. Combine that with the "eagle" behavior of the fireballs themselves and you've got yourself a white-knuckle drive to the finish! Truly a well thought out, fantastic battle.

Very true.
Like BIL says, this is that one battle that makes the game.
And about the platforms in the room, I also thought it was odd that one is missing, and is especially annoying, because it makes you kinda have to favour the left side for attacking him, because there's no platform on the middle-right side.

Incidentally I've taken a quick shot at Castlevania (NES), a game I hadn't touched in a long time.
So far, I can reach Death, but that battle is damn hard. Gotta slave away at this one too.

One thing I've come to realized, now that I've beaten Ninja Gaiden, is that, in general, people give NG a lot of crap for it's difficulty, but in my opinion, Castlevania is either equally hard, or it might just be even worse.

In NG, despite the brutal enemy positioning, the whole "back to 6-1" thing and the general (read: high) skill necessary to beat the game, it's important to note that every enemy except one (the white boomerang throwing guy) die in 1 hit, and that most enemies do 1~2 HP of damage even on later levels.
This, in contrast to Castlevania, where some enemies (like the bone pillars, axe knights) take a shitload of hits to kill, and a measly skeleton/medusa head/etc on the clock tower (and possibly beyond) will shed 4 HP from your lifebar.
The hit-recoil, that makes you fall to your doom, does exist in both games, as well.

Despite being both brutal action games, I'd say they differ in that, in NG the challenge lies more in having impecable timing, both for destroying enemies, and for the platforming sections (which many times involve slashing enemies as well), while in Castlevania it's perhaps more important to avoid getting hit (especially later on).
I should note that Castlevania does offer several health fill-ups throughout the game.

Maybe this partially stems from the fact that movement in NG is more faster and fluid, while in Castlevania is more clunky, and not particularly suited for swift playing.

Though, of course, I'm probably biased from being more experienced in one game than the other.

Both fun and challenging games, but with somewhat different skillsets needed.

[Shoryukev]

I'm biased on the other side of the fence, but it's hard for me to tell if Ninja Gaiden is actually harder or if I've just played Castlevania so much that it's ingrained into my brain.

The encounter with death and it's illustrious hallway of pain that precedes it is one of my favorite parts of CV. It keeps me on my toes every time, and it's so satisfying to beat death.

Best 3 out of 5!


Castlevania has it's tough moments paired with the damage scaling, but then again NG has it's own set of challenges too. Both games are fairly similar when you break them down. Same alt-weapon system (up+attack), same HUD, they both have severe knockback deaths, both of them have extremely deliberate level design and enemy layout/behavior. They also both have terrific graphics for the NES and an amazing soundtrack!

Looking at them it's easy to see why they have both stood the test of time.

[Obscura]

Whether Castlevania or Ninja Gaiden is harder is entirely dependent on whether you abuse the Holy Water x3 boss lockdowns, IMO. If you do, NG is harder; the game's nastiest moments are the Frankenstein and Death boss fights, and HWx3 neuters both. If you don't, Castlevania is harder.

[__SKYe]

I'm biased on the other side of the fence, but it's hard for me to tell if Ninja Gaiden is actually harder or if I've just played Castlevania so much that it's ingrained into my brain.

That's true, and I find both games somewhat equally hard (again, even though I haven't cleared Castlevania).
I just think that, although people usually find both these games very hard, that they tend to give NG more crap, like unfair enemy positioning, and of course, the 6-1 throwback.

Of course, these are probably the "scrubby exaggerations" (as BIL would put it ) of players who don't put the necessary effort/time to beat these kind of games.

And, by the way, I don't mean to imply one game is better than the other.
Rather, I just think that, where NG gets most of it's difficulty from enemy positioning and platforming segments, Castlevania gets it more from the damage scaling and, typically, harder boss fights.
And i think that, despite all the similarities they possess, this, in turn, makes Castlevania feels like a more "methodical" game (where you want to take your time and ensure you take as little damage as possible), whereas NG is a more fast-paced one (where, on average, taking damage isn't much of a problem, but it requires precise timing to reach certain platforms and defeat enemies on precarious spots).

The encounter with death and it's illustrious hallway of pain that precedes it is one of my favorite parts of CV. It keeps me on my toes every time, and it's so satisfying to beat death.

Yeah, this is were I'm at, at the moment.
Not only is Death hard (those damn sickles are annoying as hell), but that stretch right before the boss (with the medusa heads and the axe knights) is damn though.
The health pickup before this section is nice and good, but during the section itself, there's nothing to help you.
And taking a single hit when walking to an already though fight with Death, makes it that much harder.

Whether Castlevania or Ninja Gaiden is harder is entirely dependent on whether you abuse the Holy Water x3 boss lockdowns, IMO. If you do, NG is harder; the game's nastiest moments are the Frankenstein and Death boss fights, and HWx3 neuters both. If you don't, Castlevania is harder.

Is Frankenstein the one with the hunchback on his shoulder?
If yes, no wonder it was though. When I fought it, I had picked up the crappy knife before, so I had to whip my way though him.
A question, does the hunchback die, or do you just stun it to make time to beat the guy?

And to get the Holy Water, do you just keep it between levels, or is it possible to pick it up in every level?
Also, do you not lose your subweapon if you die or get a game over?

[Sumez]

Frankenstein's monster without HW is not thaaat difficult if you learn to predict his pattern, but that does take some practice. Death is just... get the god damn holy water :3 Never understood why people had trouble with the hallway leading up to him though, I always found that to be one of the easier sections of the game.
CV and NG are both relatively difficult games, but I'd still consider CV quite a bit easier, at least when just looking at the first loop. I got the 1-life clear in that without even trying for it. They are challenging in very similar ways, NG just has a faster pace that keeps you on your toes, compared to CV's slower, methodic approach.

Jacquio second form is one of the most ingenious 8bit bosses ever created. Maybe THE most ingenious?

[__SKYe]

Frankenstein's monster without HW is not thaaat difficult if you learn to predict his pattern, but that does take some practice.

I just hit the hunchback to stun hit, land a couple hits on Frankenstein, ant then, rinse and repeat.
It's just that the occasional hit from the hunchback's fireball throws me off, and I end up losing.

Never understood why people had trouble with the hallway leading up to him though, I always found that to be one of the easier sections of the game.

On a good run, I try to keep walking towards the axe armor, jump through the medusa heads, and whip the axe armors while in midair.
The main problem is, for me, is that if you get hit, you'll walk into the fight with Death, which is already damn hard, with subpar HP.
And normally, if I get hit once, I usually end up get hit several times.

Nothing that won't ease up with practice though.

Jacquio second form is one of the most ingenious 8bit bosses ever created. Maybe THE most ingenious?

Yeah, especially because the destroyable parts (the head and tail) aren't immediately aparent, so if, like me, you fight it the 1st time, and you're focusing like hell on trying to beat it, you may not even notice that attacking the apparent weak point (the head) isn't actually doing any damage.
And even then, when the head falls off, one may even not realize for a while that the tail can also be destroyed, and wind up trying to kill Jaquio in a roundabout, dangerous way (like jump slashing the core to avoid the tail, and possibly getting hit in the process).
Of course, the 3HP of damage the boss' random projectile showers deal, isn't exactly friendly to longwinded battles.

It does make for a very cool climax, for an already cool game.

[Sumez]

Actually, by second form, I meant the second part of the final boss rush, where he's flying back and forth throwing double fireballs at you It's perfectly devious and tricky.

The final form is pretty cool too, but a lot more traditional.

[dojo_b]

Whether Castlevania or Ninja Gaiden is harder is entirely dependent on whether you abuse the Holy Water x3 boss lockdowns, IMO. If you do, NG is harder; the game's nastiest moments are the Frankenstein and Death boss fights, and HWx3 neuters both. If you don't, Castlevania is harder.

If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out.

There are several classic games with clear defects from an achievement-run perspective. I tend to agree with the speedrun practice of clearly-defined rules beforehand for a satisfying run. E.g. for a 1CC in SMB 3, I settled on no warps and a limited-lives system (if life counter is ever above 8 in the overworld, enter a level and kill Mario) to patch over its sources of unbounded lives.

I've one-life cleared NG without any sort of powerups. It's not terribly harder that way because in a 1-life run you never get the chance to use subweapons against the two bosses that really count (Jaquio and Jashin, Act 6)---Ryu's current subweapon is revoked after each successful boss battle, including the Masked Devil who immediately precedes these two.

I've never had the temerity to try this in CV1, where it seems much harder (thinking of Frankenstein and Death in particular). ...Is it possible to win without the whip upgrade?? D:

OTOH I'd always resolved to win without Holy Water, since that was always up there with the Konami code in the NES canon of wimp-out moves. I believe I also limited myself to 2x subweapons, chiefly Boomerang, in one-lifing it.

On top bosses---Jaquio's is perhaps my favorite 8-bit boss fight, although I think it illustrates the power of emergent complexity in design more than ingenuity per se. The off-syncness of Jaquio's movement vs. his firing rate, combined with the homing behavior of his fireballs, makes the fight impossible to plan with total precision, and you can only really try to keep steering things into your general zone of comfort and sense of proper attack/defense rhythm.

In terms of more classically choreographed boss fights, Metal Storm (coming around the end of the 8-bit era, and a game I learned of here) has what I feel is one of the most ingenious designs in the boss of stage 6---itself one of the most ingenious level designs, especially the JP version. For at least two reasons. One, the fight requires a long series of rapid platform-switching via gravity-reversals, that is completely unintuitive and overwhelming when you first encounter it, and demands self-transformation to understand and beat, but retains a hypnotic flow even after you've mastered it.

Two, the uncomfortable intimacy of protagonist and boss---it consists of a trio of platforms that you depend on to survive, while you're also working to destroy them---is a great scheme, not only for its inherent claustrophobia but for the way your options get narrower and more perilous as you progressively destroy the platforms.

It falls short in being ultimately easier than other classic fights (in the first loop anyway, which is all I've cleared), but from a design perspective I'd still single it out for praise.

[BIL]

As dojo_b said above, for easier discussion regarding NG1's boss rush: they're three distinct entities. First is Masked Devil, second is Jaquio, third is the revived Demon (or Jashin/"Evil Deity," in the JP script).

It's NGII and NGIII's rushes that get a bit nuttier with body-horrific metamorphosings. ;3

A question, does the hunchback die, or do you just stun it to make time to beat the guy?

Igor is indestructible, but yes - you definitely want to attack him and his projectiles to free up vital time/space. If you're being rushed down, don't flee - smack him and move through before he unfreezes. Of course you need to be mindful of Frankie during this too. Hectic fight.

And to get the Holy Water, do you just keep it between levels, or is it possible to pick it up in every level?
Also, do you not lose your subweapon if you die or get a game over?

Subweapons carry over between stages - you lose them if you die. Holy Water is easy to keep for bosses, generally - it's in convenient candles for just about all of them besides Phantom Bat, who you want to kill with the Axe anyway.

The big exception is in loop 2, stage 4 - the fishman spawns are absolutely deadly, making the stopwatch found before the first raft a tempting pickup. However, if you don't get the Holy Water midway through, you won't have it for Frankenstein. In loop 1 it's no problem to just keep the HW, since the fishmen aren't aimed to kill you.

Personally I prefer the x3 cross for CV boss slaying. It's powerful, but won't quite obliterate them before they get a chance to move. I'm just comfier with it during stages too, and I love the piercing boomerang mechanics. In my 2-ALL nomiss, I nuked loop 2's Frankenstein with x3HW - the aforementioned fishman bullshit makes me declare total war. Kept the triple cross for Death and Dracula, though. Equal parts principle, showboating and comfort, I guess.

Also, I consider Death vs Triple Cross one of the best sidescrolling boss matchups ever. Random, intricate and punishing but totally fair. Note his summon/hover/summon rhythm, it's critical information. You can't predict where he'll go, or where the sickles will spawn, but you'll need this to effectively plot your own moves. Can end in seconds or go down to the wire, for either party - great methodical duel.

Triple Axe can put on a good show too (lets you swat deadly direct-overhead sickles that can trap cross users, and it can rack up major damage with the right trajectory!). Dagger I don't really recommend, you're at too much of a clear disadvantage vs the sickles. It's certainly doable though. :3

Never understood why people had trouble with the hallway leading up to him though, I always found that to be one of the easier sections of the game.

In my experience, it's usually too much attemped evasion of medusas+axes, not enough counter-attacking. Trying to dodge everything leads to AVGN syndrome! But wait - Professor Biruford has the cure!

Spoiler

(red his, green mine... someone made me the original screencap to "PROVE CV IS UNPOSSIBLE, SIMMON CANNOT DODGE" - lmaooo!)

Basically, as with Frankenstein's monster + Igor, don't neglect counterattacking. I wouldn't call it one of the game's easier sections tbh, there is a fair bit going on - but it's 100% reasonable for sure. The only part of the game I think verges on bullshit is the st6 opening bridge, where you're brutally overmatched by the bats and can get promptly screwed/grievously wounded with little recourse. Make sure you're holding [UP+LEFT] from the map screen for the good patterns, kids! I... uh, I think it works like that, anyway!

I've never had the temerity to try this in CV1, where it seems much harder (thinking of Frankenstein and Death in particular). ...Is it possible to win without the whip upgrade?? D:

I imagine it's possible - I did my max whip + Triple Dagger no-miss for a laugh, was definitely some wriggle room there. However, I'm guessing it would be... extremely painful. Or at least annoying! I wouldn't want to, tbh - CV's max whip is too good a primary attack mechanic, with its balance of range and absolute priority versus startup time and committal (the contrast with NG1's shorter-ranged but quicker, ultra-cancellable sword is one of my favourite comparison points).

[Obscura]

Woah, I never knew that you could whip the low axes while still standing! I always matched the high/low axes with crouch whip/standing whip.

Otherwise, that advice is almost exactly how I do it. I will occasionally throw in a jump if the screen is clear for a jumping holy water (takes down axe armors fast!), especially if I somehow don't have the III yet. The big key is understanding that if for whatever reason you can't counter-attack a Medusa, it's better to just run forward to avoid their arc horizontally, not try to jump over it.

[BIL]

Yeah, CVIII giving Axe Armours dedicated high/low attacks was a huge improvement. When I got back into the NES, I had CVIII for a good few months before CV1. I felt kinda bad for its axe armours when I realised how useless they are versus a determined whip.

That said, Grant pretty much inherited Simon's CV1 AA game. Standing dagger will snuff low axes, and he can duck right under high ones. Has to get in closer, but with the dagger's speed he's a surer AA killer than any other (subweaponless) CVIII character.

edit: okay, fuck CV1 no-powerups run. Gave it a shot and honestly, the biggest threat by far is unwanted whip upgrade. Enemies and projectiles will drop them relentlessly. It's much closer to a quasi-pacifist run. Base whip's range+power is meagre, and it would definitely make survival harder - but it's outshone by the need to constantly spawn upgrades from candles, before you can advance with any sort of vigour. Almost like you're employing a fictitious "set fire to the drapes" mechanic, haha...

UNRELATED: BURNING ZOMBIES

Spoiler

Also I had to resort to stopwatch for Phantom Bat, because otherwise he just camps at the top of the screen and takes forever to kill.

Still an interesting alternate gametype, though. Rainy day material, perhaps. LESSON LEARNED: NG1 is better for no-powerups play because not only is its default weapon better (in both utility and visceral feedback), it's also all you're ever gonna get. ;3

[Obscura]

Wait, it's possible to consistently kill Dracula's second form without holy water? How? The jump height is random as far as I know, and there's no way to react to the high jump in time. I don't see how you'd cross through him without the hitbox disabling cheese.