Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[nissling]

You can trust those ratings. Don't use that set on 230V.

I know. I'm an electrician.

[Fudoh]

@system11: some word of advice though. The 14" BVMs are HUGE. Same width and depth than the 20" models due to the control panels on the sides.

[Ed Oscuro]

You can trust those ratings. Don't use that set on 230V.

I know. I'm an electrician.

On the other point, it would be interesting to see what the PSU components on the motherboard look like.

Edit - this is wrong, I misread the model number: I wouldn't be surprised, given the age of those units, that the PSUs really were designed for a single region. The later universal PSU designs seem to be facilitated by more modern designs and economies of scale.

[Fudoh]

My European BVMs are indeed rated 100-240V - says so on the back, so I'm actually surprised as well than Japan got different power boards for the same monitors.

[Ed Oscuro]

Actually, I'm wondering if this isn't a legal compliance issue instead.

[nissling]

On the other point, it would be interesting to see what the PSU components on the motherboard look like.

I will actually take it out one day as a friend of mine needs a reference for his BVM (due to the previous owner who messed up the PSU). Can get you a picture at that point. The tube is dated 1999 if it's of any interest.

My BVM-1454D also says 100-240V but it may be based on a PVM. Not sure.

[system11]

@system11: some word of advice though. The 14" BVMs are HUGE. Same width and depth than the 20" models due to the control panels on the sides.

I think I may have noticed a dealbreaker anyway. The monitor shelf on my workbench, I simply don't think it'll take over twice the weight of the old Commodore type monitor. Fortunately the old one lasted JUST long enough for me to get a repair I was doing for someone out of the way...

[nissling]

Now I finally got my VGA->BNC adapter and we all know what that means, right? Dreamcast on my HDM-3830.

After seeing how it performed with DVDs in 480p, I had no hopes that the Dreamcast would look any good either. But I'm very happy to be wrong this time. I've never seen Dreamcast look this darn good. Colors are truly spot on and textures are very good. My only complain (other than geometry and convergence isn't perfect at the moment) is the after burning which is visible in dark scenes but that's natural for a CRT. Did get some captures but it's very difficult to get them good on this monitor. My screenshots look like crap imo and don't represent what this monitor is capable at all. Capturing a 15KHz CRT is much easier.









But since my HDM cannot display 240p, I decided to try out Space Harrier in Shenmue to see what it looks like. Very sharp and colorful to say the least. The lack of scanlines however isn't very pleasing at first but I can forgive it since this monitor isn't really made for retro games. I do have a TORO though so I could get some scanlines.

[Fudoh]

What was your complaint with 480p from DVDs ?

[nissling]

Picture looked rather soft and "lifeless" to me. It's nowhere near as forgiving as you may expect from a CRT (regardless of size and resolution). I honestly rather watch DVDs on a modern LCD or plasma set than my HDM. Blu-Rays look fabulous on it however and Dreamcast as well. I recently got my HD Fury Gamer 2 Component so I will try a Playstation 4 with it.

I will make a video review of this monitor until next year and hopefully it will be more exhausting than what I have time to write here.

[Fudoh]

Picture looked rather soft and "lifeless" to me. It's nowhere near as forgiving as you may expect from a CRT

that doesn't sound right. You remember that DVDs are native 480i once run through a standard MPEG decoder (even when the MPEG2 stream on the disc is progressive in the first place). Recombining the fields to full frames isn't trivial and can make a hell of a difference. Especially bad are cheaper DVD or BD players with generic deinterlacing engines that claim to output 480p just fine, but all they do in reality is make the picture worse. Over the past years many players have abandoned proper film recognition modes for movies and are using video deinterlacing instead. T-E-R-R-I-B-L-E-!

I can't speak for your HDM, but every once in a while I have the opportunity to see movies on a CRT projector and it's still an experience - WITH the right equipment.

[nissling]

I've done quite some experiments with deinterlaces for quite some time and I know very well what you mean. I've got a couple of VPs and compatible players so hopefully I will find a combo that will improve the picture.

But then again, I'm very used to watching Blu-Rays so going back to DVD is always a disappointment to me.

[bobrocks95]

How does Laserdisc look on professional CRTs I wonder?

[Fudoh]

same thing applies: you don't want 480i on a CRT like this. Properly processed LD can look very nice.

[kamiboy]

Laserdisc stores a composite SD signal, so even with a good comb filter I have to imagine that it won't look too great.

[Fudoh]

It's better than you think. Also it's completely free or any digital artefacts, even if you get a confetti show or massive explosions on screen - something DVD could barely handle. LD playback heavily depends on the quality of the player though - much more than DVD or BD.

4:3 material - on which the missing of anamorphic widescreen modes doesn't matter - really shines on LD.

[nissling]

How does Laserdisc look on professional CRTs I wonder?

I haven't tried any LDs on my HDM, but to me Laserdiscs have a bland look no matter what they're played on. I've tried out many players with multiple equipment (TVs, scalers, deinterlacers, broadcast TBCs, comb filters etc) but the format itself has too many flaws for me to enjoy it. The format may be of interest if you like the inconvenience (much like vinyl records) and composite video but I don't. It's still impressive for its time however, as it's vastly superior to any pre-DVD format. Sound wise it's excellent and I find much joy in the artwork.

Can try using my current LD player on the HDM with a Crystalio VPS-2300 for processing someday if you're interested.

[bobrocks95]

How does Laserdisc look on professional CRTs I wonder?

I haven't tried any LDs on my HDM, but to me Laserdiscs have a bland look no matter what they're played on. I've tried out many players with multiple equipment (TVs, scalers, deinterlacers, broadcast TBCs, comb filters etc) but the format itself has too many flaws for me to enjoy it. The format may be of interest if you like the inconvenience (much like vinyl records) and composite video but I don't. It's still impressive for its time however, as it's vastly superior to any pre-DVD format. Sound wise it's excellent and I find much joy in the artwork.

Can try using my current LD player on the HDM with a Crystalio VPS-2300 for processing someday if you're interested.

The more inconvenient the better in my book haha. No need to take any pictures with the HDM, Fudoh's right that set's too good for 480i composite. I was thinking of a 4:3 P/BVM with probably a lot lower TVL rating/max resolution.

It's better than you think. Also it's completely free or any digital artefacts, even if you get a confetti show or massive explosions on screen - something DVD could barely handle. LD playback heavily depends on the quality of the player though - much more than DVD or BD.

4:3 material - on which the missing of anamorphic widescreen modes doesn't matter - really shines on LD.

Yeah I was thinking about getting into laserdisc collecting soon, mainly for old 4:3 stuff like anime that hasn't gotten much love on other formats, or had really nice collectors sets on Laserdisc. Very few companies in Japan seem to want to re-scan film negatives whether they still have them or not, or at least that's the case for Toei.

[nissling]

I'd say unless you're looking for something that's exclusive to Laserdisc, or want the (awesome) covers, or are into old fashioned technology, don't mind Laserdisc. The very best pressings on a really good setup is nice but DVD is still a good step ahead. It's not worth the hassle at all. So far, after having seen hundreds of Laserdiscs on many various setups I've only found one single Laserdisc that's directly comparable to a DVD (DTS Experience).

While I do agree with Fudoh that the results highly depends on the player, the actual cons of Laserdisc are clear even with relatively simple/cheap players (although with reservations of the worst models out there of course).

EDIT: Haven't watched a Laserdisc in quite some time. And I do have The Matrix laying around here somewhere so maybe I should give it a shot...

[bobrocks95]

If I'm being completely honest with myself I just want the big-ass sleeves up on my shelf and the eccentricity of watching an old format that seems so bizarre in the current day; I could probably care less how they look. Maybe I just want some validation that they're at least passable and worth my time in some regard? Either way I'll probably still get a player at some point for kicks.

[nissling]

In that case you may want to look for a core player. CLD-D406 will do fine as an entrance player, but if you want to take it to a higher level without spending a fortune the CLD-D703 (or 704) are great.

Like I said I do not recommend getting into Laserdisc (same thing goes for vinyl pretty much) but it's your choice. You may love it after all. Me, I've gone so far down intp it that I'm tired of the format and will probably not spend any more money on it other than a few releases. For some time I watched almost nothing else than LD, and the more LDs I saw the more annoyed I was by the high noise level and soft picture. One day I tried a Blu-Ray and fell off my chair. I had completely forgotten how much better current formats are.

[bobrocks95]

In that case you may want to look for a core player. CLD-D406 will do fine as an entrance player, but if you want to take it to a higher level without spending a fortune the CLD-D703 (or 704) are great.

Like I said I do not recommend getting into Laserdisc (same thing goes for vinyl pretty much) but it's your choice. You may love it after all. Me, I've gone so far down intp it that I'm tired of the format and will probably not spend any more money on it other than a few releases. For some time I watched almost nothing else than LD, and the more LDs I saw the more annoyed I was by the high noise level and soft picture. One day I tried a Blu-Ray and fell off my chair. I had completely forgotten how much better current formats are.
*snip*

I was thinking of getting a D703- the difference between it and a 704 is AC3 audio right? If I've reached the point where I'm buying an AC3 demodulator I'll officially know I've gone too far.

Great comic btw, forwarding that to a friend who recently got into vinyl...

[nissling]

Yes, D703 and D704 are the same except AC3 output. You should be able to add it though with a modification. I think there's an LD thread on this forum in case you want to keep the discussion going.

I was into vinyl too (though nowhere near as intense as LD) but like others I got annoyed by the high noise floor, distortion, clicks and pops etc. Never liked the sound.

[RGB-A]

I have a BVM-A32E1WM with BKM-15r. No analog video card input BKM-68X.

The module card analog input from BVM-D work in BVM-A? Any analog card BVM-D module is in ebay. Any Cards analog BVM-D model operate in the BVM-A monitors?

Why there are two different analog module cards BVM-D?
1. The card Digital/Analog with only 3+3 BNC RGB in and RGB out.
2. The card is only Analog module that has 4+4 BNC RGB & SYNC in and RGB & SYNC out. This card is screwed by default and is always present in all BVM-D monitors.

I want to connect VGA consoles and PC 31KHz to 45KHz:
VGA Dreamcast. Nvidia card VGA PC games 720p and HD movies Bluray 1080i.
HD Fury: Playstation 3/4, and Xbox one.

Is there any way to connect your PC VGA to BVM without using external device such as Extron? Is there an effective VGA cable to connect the BVM? I have seen on ebay cables VGA to BNC x4. Does it work and is reliable to work? Retrocables.uk the guys recommended me to VGA cable BNC x5 anyone but the BVM has BNC x4.

Thank you very much.

[Ed Oscuro]

The module card analog input from BVM-D work in BVM-A?

Depends which one. The 2006 BVM A series brochure says "The BVM-A Series input boards are not compatible with other earlier BVM Series monitors." However, some compatible optional input boards are shown:

BKM-62HS (HD SDI/SDI - not what you want)
BKM-61D (SDI/Analog Multi Input Adaptor - apparently doesn't do RGBs, just SDI, composite, and Y-C)
BKM-68X (Analog Component Input Adaptor - the one you want)

BKM-68X will accept YPbPr component, at HD resolutions, up to 1080/60i or 720/60p. It won't accept VGA, and I don't think there is any native solution for viewing VGA on a BVM. You would need another monitor to do that. I don't know about VGA PCs to YPbPr but it's been discussed here quite a lot before. Not sure about Dreamcast output, either, since I think that only comes as VGA without modding or transcoding.

btw, I would not suggest using the monitor for everything, since it's irreplaceable. Use a regular flat TV for 1080p and Blu-Ray watching to save hours, if you want to save the BVM for years to come.

[Fudoh]

and I don't think there is any native solution for viewing VGA on a BVM. You would need another monitor to do that. I don't know about VGA PCs to YPbPr but it's been discussed here quite a lot before. Not sure about Dreamcast output, either, since I think that only comes as VGA without modding or transcoding.

depends on how you define "native". All you have to do is convert RGBHV to RGsB or RGBs - something every $20 RGB interface will do for you. RGBsB and RGsB are both accepted by the D and A series BVMs.

Is there any way to connect your PC VGA to BVM without using external device such as Extron?

You cannot force RGsB or RGBs on the PC's side, so you have use a VGA to 5x BNC cable. You can try combining the syncs without any processing (T-adapter), but in the long run you should just use a proper sync processor, e.g. an Extron interface.

[Ed Oscuro]

and I don't think there is any native solution for viewing VGA on a BVM. You would need another monitor to do that. I don't know about VGA PCs to YPbPr but it's been discussed here quite a lot before. Not sure about Dreamcast output, either, since I think that only comes as VGA without modding or transcoding.

depends on how you define "native". All you have to do is convert RGBHV to RGsB or RGBs - something every $20 RGB interface will do for you. RGBsB and RGsB are both accepted by the D and A series BVMs.

Worded poorly - I know such things exist, I just never bothered to remember details Will that work for Dreamcast output as 480p, and 240p resolutions as 15KHz, I hope?

$20 though? That's cheaper than I thought.

[Fudoh]

Worded poorly - I know such things exist, I just never bothered to remember details Will that work for Dreamcast output as 480p, and 240p resolutions as 15KHz, I hope?

if you have a VGA box with a 15/31khz switch, then this works for all resolutions, yes.

The featureless interfaces are really, really cheap.

[nissling]

I just found out that my Nvidia graphics card can output 480i through HDMI, so I should be able to use my HDFury in order to get it working with my BVMs. That'd be great for video editing.

[BazookaBen]

I just found out that my Nvidia graphics card can output 480i through HDMI, so I should be able to use my HDFury in order to get it working with my BVMs. That'd be great for video editing.

Let us know how it goes, I'm not sure HD Fury's work at such a low pixel clock.