XRGB-3

[Konsolkongen]

I'm happy to hear that!

How much did you end up paying for a replacement power supply unit?

[BuckoA51]

During one of my less clever moments I actually managed to accidentally plug that XRGB3 power connector into the wrong device, therefore bending the pin that is inside it. I nearly had a fit, but luckily I was able to bend the pin back and I hadn't applied any power to the wrong device before I realised

Out of interest though Ikaruga, couldn't you have just chopped off the old connector from your faulty XRGB3 PSU and used that rather than buying a new one?

[lovecraft]

Because the XRGB3 is a horribly quirky, dated little thing and the newer TV's get the less flexible they are with their VGA input. The reason people jump through so many hoops to get this silly little box working is because it really does look better than any other videoprocessor on the market for 240p material.

Cue shameless plug for my crappy site if you're thinking about getting another processor to use in tandem (basically what I had to do):- http://www.videogameperfection.com/

Thanks, will check this out carefully.

By the way, yesterday I connected the japanese Dreamcast to the VGA-in of my TV (via a cheap VGA-box), and when the DC powered on, I got for just half a second the same message: "Video format not supported", then the picture appeared immediately in 4:3 with a crystal-clear quality
So, I'll try to connect the XRGB-3 with different cables from its VGA-out to other sockets of my TV (HDMI and component) to see if it may solve the incompatibility problem. Because I also noticed my TV allows me to manually select the video format (NTSC 3.58 / NTSC 4.43) through the HDMI/Component-in, but NOT through its VGA-in... So wait and see...

[BuckoA51]

Trying a new cable is always worthwhile. You can't really connect VGA to anything other than VGA directly though. To connect it to HDMI you need a converter like the Gefen (not cheap for one that does a reasonable job) or a videoprocessor (DVDO Edge, VP50, etc).
Transcoding to component is cheaper but undesirable since you lose quality and to my understanding the processing most TV's do on the component signal is undesirable for videogame material.

[lovecraft]

Trying a new cable is always worthwhile. You can't really connect VGA to anything other than VGA directly though. To connect it to HDMI you need a converter like the Gefen (not cheap for one that does a reasonable job) or a videoprocessor (DVDO Edge, VP50, etc).
Transcoding to component is cheaper but undesirable since you lose quality and to my understanding the processing most TV's do on the component signal is undesirable for videogame material.

damn I bought 3 cables already in ebay (VGA to Component / VGA to HDMI / and DVI-D to HDMI for the DVI-D-out of the XRGB-3...)
anyway I can't see the interest to buy different expensive video processors if for a fraction of the bill you can get a good CRT display or cab

[Fudoh]

anyway I can't see the interest to buy different expensive video processors if for a fraction of the bill you can get a good CRT display or cab

because you can't get a 50" CRT and because most people prefer not to have different displays for different sources.

[lovecraft]

anyway I can't see the interest to buy different expensive video processors if for a fraction of the bill you can get a good CRT display or cab

because you can't get a 50" CRT and because most people prefer not to have different displays for different sources.

True. On the other hand, the 50" displays are 16:9, so if you set up the screen to 4:3 especially for older sources, I guess the image obtained is not so much impressive compared to a 4:3 32" CRT full screen (?). Anyway I agree with the idea it's better to have one display for all sources, even though I suppose you must have a huge power consumption if you play intensively a Super Famicom RPG, for example, on a 50" HD display...

[BuckoA51]

I thought CRT's were much more power hungry than LCD's and about on par with Plasma, but we're going off topic now...

[Fudoh]

A 29 to 32" tube averages to about 100 Watt power consumption. A 52" LED TV (mine) averages to about 130 Watts when not driven at 100% backlight, but with reasonable settings. 50" LCDs (with CCFL backlight) or Plasmas average to about 220 Watts with peaks in the 300W-ish area.

[ikaruga007]

Bucko: Yeah, I could've just cut the connector from the original power supply and I would have if I hadn't found a suitable plug. I wanted to keep the original intact so I could just replace the broken capacitors if I somehow screwed up my soldering

[Endymion]

True. On the other hand, the 50" displays are 16:9, so if you set up the screen to 4:3 especially for older sources, I guess the image obtained is not so much impressive compared to a 4:3 32" CRT full screen (?).

You think so?

Last weekend I got a KV-40XBR800. It is a 40", 4.3 CRT. It weighs 305 pounds. The 40" measurement is diagonal. I measured its viewable screen dimension vertically. 24.5 inches. Then I took the same tape measure and measured my 50" Panasonic plasma's vertical. 24.5 inches.

And this is with a 40 inch CRT. I think Sony only ever made one other 40" tube so most folks with 27 to 32 inch tubes (or even the occasional 36") will not have a screen area for 4.3 that is even as large as the same ratio done with a 50" non-tube screen.

It also helps that even a 50" plasma screen only weighs +/- 100 pounds, LCDs even less.

[RGB32E]

Last weekend I got a KV-40XBR800. It is a 40", 4.3 CRT. It weighs 305 pounds. The 40" measurement is diagonal. I measured its viewable screen dimension vertically. 24.5 inches. Then I took the same tape measure and measured my 50" Panasonic plasma's vertical. 24.5 inches.

And this is with a 40 inch CRT. I think Sony only ever made one other 40" tube so most folks with 27 to 32 inch tubes (or even the occasional 36") will not have a screen area for 4.3 that is even as large as the same ratio done with a 50" non-tube screen.

Mitsubishi also made a 40" CRT... not flat faced like the Sony though. What use does that XBR800 monster have for retro gaming? Some sort of RGB to Component converter would be needed (XRGB or not).

[Endymion]

You answered your own question.

And I was speaking to this notion, specifically.

True. On the other hand, the 50" displays are 16:9, so if you set up the screen to 4:3 especially for older sources, I guess the image obtained is not so much impressive compared to a 4:3 32" CRT full screen (?).

You'll need a 40 inch 4.3 screen to match the image that a widescreen 50 incher provides in a 4.3 ratio, the utility of the flat panels should be clear in that context.

[lovecraft]

True. On the other hand, the 50" displays are 16:9, so if you set up the screen to 4:3 especially for older sources, I guess the image obtained is not so much impressive compared to a 4:3 32" CRT full screen (?).

You think so?

Last weekend I got a KV-40XBR800. It is a 40", 4.3 CRT. It weighs 305 pounds. The 40" measurement is diagonal. I measured its viewable screen dimension vertically. 24.5 inches. Then I took the same tape measure and measured my 50" Panasonic plasma's vertical. 24.5 inches.

And this is with a 40 inch CRT. I think Sony only ever made one other 40" tube so most folks with 27 to 32 inch tubes (or even the occasional 36") will not have a screen area for 4.3 that is even as large as the same ratio done with a 50" non-tube screen.

It also helps that even a 50" plasma screen only weighs +/- 100 pounds, LCDs even less.

when I said "not so much impressive", I was not speaking of screen size only.
If you output your 240p game image on a good 4:3 32" CRT, at least you immediately get the accurate format, contrast, colors and res. as they were exactly thought by the developers. For that reason you often have to add extra stuff to your HD TV (deinterlacer, down/upscalers, scanliners, etc) to get a correct image with a low-res source. When you resize 4:3 your 240p game image on a big 16:9 HD display, I think the image is reformated and goes through filtering process to match the low-res, etc... You may have a good quality "out of the box" if your HD display has a decent scaler engine, but it's not 100% the real deal. If you have to add extra modules to improve a lowres image, you end up with a mess of many things powered-on, AC adpaters and cables around your HD TV.. Well that's another topic, but I think a 50" HD TV may be great for some arcade playing with your mates, but not appropriate for a continuous solo long playing with a 240p source (playing a RPG for ex.). Also I'm definitely not sure a LCD lifetime is on a par with the 20~25 years+ lifetime of a CRT.

[ikaruga007]

Playing around with the XRGB-3 and my arcade PCB's, Nebulas Ray and Chelnov. I'm using the XRGB in a cab with a 31khz monitor. The PCBs are connected to the D2 input via VGA (since I'm running them through a JAMMA to JVS adapter and take the 15khz VGA signal from this adapter).

Both games look great but while Nebulas Ray works flawlessly I'm having some stability issues with Chelnov. The image is slightly jumpy, i.e. it keeps its not garbled but the whole image just slightly shifts upwards slightly and then settles again. This happens in around three second intervals. The effect is the same in B0 mode. Has anyone seen this before?

I'm surprised by this since Chelnov supposedly runs at 60Hz, so sync rate shouldn't be the issue right?

[Endymion]

Also I'm definitely not sure a LCD lifetime is on a par with the 20~25 years+ lifetime of a CRT.

Plasmas are rated at over 100,000 hours to half-brightness at this point so can easily get into that time frame, unless you power yours on 24 hours daily of course. If you figure a more reasonable 8 hours a day that comes to about 34 years and 3 months.

If you'll even want an older screen that far into the future is another matter entirely. CRTs are great and I have four still, but they're a very select bunch and I have a hard time imagining myself satisfied with a typical one from 1990.

[lovecraft]

Also I'm definitely not sure a LCD lifetime is on a par with the 20~25 years+ lifetime of a CRT.

Plasmas are rated at over 100,000 hours to half-brightness at this point so can easily get into that time frame, unless you power yours on 24 hours daily of course. If you figure a more reasonable 8 hours a day that comes to about 34 years and 3 months.

Interesting.
Though I read here and there that plasmas don't like static images (?) About LCD's, some pixels may pass away after a long and intensive use... I highly doubt the LCD matrix remains intact after 100,000 hours of use...

[Fudoh]

First thing to go on LCDs is the backlight. There's hardly anything else that fails on early-90s laptops. TVs develop extremely fast right now. I've got my 4th LCD television since 2004 now. Before that I only had two tubes within 10 years.

[RGB32E]

Interesting.
Though I read here and there that plasmas don't like static images (?) About LCD's, some pixels may pass away after a long and intensive use... I highly doubt the LCD matrix remains intact after 100,000 hours of use...

LCD or plasma, the first thing that seems to go is the power supply. So, if you don't have a panel defect (usually found within warranty), you're likely to have a component or two in your power supply fail. I've repaired two Samsung TVs that had failed caps! Panel hours is just a marketing selling point, as other things in a TV will fail first!

[ikaruga007]

Konsollkongen: I bought this AC/DC adapter from kjell.com (Swedish store). Set me back 299 SEK, i.e. around €31.
http://www.kjell.com/content/templates/ ... item=44280

It's much easier to find a 12v adapter and it probably would've been fine but I didn't want to take any chances with my beloved XRGB

[SGGG2]

double post

[SGGG2]

You maybe right. I have already modified the MegaDrive to output C.sync from the "out" pin on the Video encoder. Doesn't make a difference though

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14820

if you get "jailbars" on RGB then the SCART cable sucks... I've seen quite a few cables with bad value resistor between pin 5 and 16 (or whatever they were...)... 100ohm there and problems vanish, I've even seen few cables with 10Kohm resistor, which produce all kinds of funny effects between different TVs...

these bars are a composhit signal artifact, and when you see them in RGB, it suggests TV is in intermediate state, showing mix of RGB and composhit, not one or the other.

The audio from my Genesis sucks because I have the dreaded Model 1 VA7

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7796

[Konsolkongen]

if you get "jailbars" on RGB then the SCART cable sucks... I've seen quite a few cables with bad value resistor between pin 5 and 16 (or whatever they were...)... 100ohm there and problems vanish, I've even seen few cables with 10Kohm resistor, which produce all kinds of funny effects between different TVs...

Is this in an EU wired cable or a Japanese one?

In an EU one that would be a 100ohm resistor between 5V and GND and that doesn't make sense to me 5V isn't needed when using it with the XRGB-3 btw
The cables I have, I made myself. Not claiming it's the best in the world but the one I made for my Neo Geo MVS gives a perfect RGB picture.

Sucks about your Genesis Audio Mine is a Japanese VA6. And my Asian MegaDrive 2 is a VA0 or 1 and the audio is superb on that too. I guess I have been lucky...

[lovecraft]

Trying a new cable is always worthwhile. You can't really connect VGA to anything other than VGA directly though. To connect it to HDMI you need a converter like the Gefen (not cheap for one that does a reasonable job) or a videoprocessor (DVDO Edge, VP50, etc).
Transcoding to component is cheaper but undesirable since you lose quality and to my understanding the processing most TV's do on the component signal is undesirable for videogame material.

So, I tried with a VGA to HDMI cable (from the VGA-out of the XRGB to the HDMI-in of my TV): does not work.
Then I tried with a DVI-D to HDMI cable (from the DVI-out of the XRGB to the HDMI-in of my TV): it DOES work !
However, since the XRGB outputs from its DVI-out, it appears I cannot access to B1 mode (B0 only!), so no scanlines !
So there is absolutely no possibility to access to the scanlines option on my TV ? (after updating the XRGB firmware, I have also B2 and B3 modes, but I guess they are just like B0 (= no scanlines option), correct ?)

[SuperPang]

Hello fellas
I'm going to purchase an XRGB3 for using my retro stuff on a 1920x1080 LED TV and I have a couple of questions.

I have a JPN Saturn with a 21pin Scart lead I bought from Lik-Sang years ago that works on my Euro TV. Will I need to buy a Japanese lead?

I also have a JPN N64 with RGB mod, what can I do here? Is it possible to simply buy a EURO>JPN Scart adapter?

I also have a Wii, is it worth running component through the XRGB or not?

Finally, what outputs does the XRGB have and which should I be using for my Panasonic LED TV. Does it have HDMI out as I could use the VGA port on the TV for my DC. EDIT: reading the post above I'm guessing not.

Thanks in advance.

[RGB32E]

Hello fellas
I'm going to purchase an XRGB3 for using my retro stuff on a 1920x1080 LED TV and I have a couple of questions.

I have a JPN Saturn with a 21pin Scart lead I bought from Lik-Sang years ago that works on my Euro TV. Will I need to buy a Japanese lead?

Yes, the 21pin connector is wired for the japanese specification, and not SCART. A Japanese RGB cable, adapter (SCART to JP21), or a custom cable would work. The XRGB-3 has two RGB inputs that can be used for 15kHz RGB - Game (21 pin) and D2 (VGA connector). So, you're not forced to use the 21 pin connector for consoles.

I also have a JPN N64 with RGB mod, what can I do here? Is it possible to simply buy a EURO>JPN Scart adapter?

You can use an adapter, buy a SHVC-010, or rewire your existing cable...

I also have a Wii, is it worth running component through the XRGB or not?

You can get sharper scaling than your TV when connecting to the D1 (component) input on the XRGB-3 in B0 mode. B1 mode is usefull if you wish to play VC games with scanlines. Not all VC games output at 240p (a requirement), and you have to set the Wii console to 480i to get 240p output from compatible games.

Finally, what outputs does the XRGB have and which should I be using for my Panasonic LED TV. Does it have HDMI out as I could use the VGA port on the TV for my DC. EDIT: reading the post above I'm guessing not.

Thanks in advance.

The XRGB-3 has DVI (digital) and VGA (analog) outputs. The post above (using a VGA to HDMI cable) doesn't work with the XRGB-3 as the VGA connector only outputs analog signals - digital video output is from the DVI connector! Use a DVI to HDMI cable if you want to connect the unit to your TV using HDMI. The PC input on Panasonic HDTVs are limited to 720p - even for 1080p TVs. So, if you want to run 1920x1080 (B0 mode), you'd need to use a DVI to HDMI cable. B1 mode (720/640x480) only outputs via the analog VGA output and should work just fine with the PC input on the Panasonic HDTV.

[SuperPang]

Really helpful, thanks.

if you wish to play VC games with scanlines.

That never even occurred to me

[SGGG2]

GS Mode Selector can be used to force PS2 titles into 240p!

The mode to select is "NTSC NI to NTSC I Field". You can now scanline just about anything.

[Fudoh]

Nice, I will have to try this.

Are you running GSM Selector from a disc, a memory card or harddrive ?

(EDIT: Ok, I just utterly failed at burning GSM selector to a CD. If someone succeeds and could give a little guidance on how to make this work, this would be highly appreciated, certainly not only by me....)

[lovecraft]

My problem is resolved, now I know why the XRGB didn't work immediately on my HDTV via the VGA-in
All the solution came from the DVI to HDMI cable ^^, let me explain :
when the XRGB has all default settings and is set to B0 mode, it does not work if it's directly connected through VGA/VGA (I get the "video format not supported" message on screen).
So, first I need to plug the XRGB via DVI/HDMI to make it working in B0 mode, and in the FPGA settings I select 'B1 mode'. Then I power off the XRGB and reconnect it through VGA/VGA... When powered on, finally the XRGB works in B1 mode through VGA on my TV !

My first impressions are good. I tried arcade boards via a japanese Supergun connected to the Scart input of the XRGB.
The H-scanlines set to 175~193 gives a nice result.
So far, there's only one board it doesn't accept (big sync problem/no signal detected), it's Caveman Ninja (Data East hardware)
The PGM/Demon Front cart system works correctly with a AFC level set to 6 (otherwise the upper part of the image is distorted).
The SNK MVS works fine with a AFC level set to 5 (I only noticed a very slight instability time to time on the very upper-end of the image).
Overall, the result is decent.

My conclusion is still the same: it's great if you want to play time to time your fav arcade game with mates on a bigger screen.
But because it's a bit tedious to adjust settings almost every time you change the hardware connected to the XRGB, I keep saying a HDTV+XRGB is not on a par with a good ol' CRT display, more simple and still better with low-res sources (for arcade boards at least).