Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

The world version of Rastan definitely doesn't lack the full heal items. I wasn't aware the JP version didn't have the dumb bat trap in stage 1, though (which is thankfully the only time it happens in the game).

[Sumez]

Oh shit, I didn't know about that. I always defaulted to the Japanese "Rastan Saga" purely for the aesthetic bonus's of the unique intro and stage clear texts.

Only good thing about the world rom is that the generic stage-clear text makes a good image macro.

Spoiler

*FLEX*

YOUNG MAN, YOU'D  BETTER GO BACK HERE,
DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN RETURN ALIVE
ONCE YOU GO INTO THIS ISLAND?
YOU MUST REGRET IT LATER,

[Vanguard]

I finally downloaded a Japan rom and realized what exactly I've been doing wrong: i've been playing the World version which is incredibly (and unfairly) sadistic with its bats in the "dungeon" levels.

In level 1's dungeon in Japan, two meek bats will appear about 45 seconds in and flitter about the screen, posing little threat. In the World ROM, that same amount of time will spawn SIX bats flying directly towards you, going directly into your sprite for massive damage. To top it off, at appx. 45 second intervals 6 bats will CONTINUE to spawn, each swarm getting faster (to lulz-worthy speeds, zipping forward 50mph) to just fucking kill you without a second thought.

Playing that World ROM garbage made me occasionally doubt that Rastan was actually a great game.

Dang, I made the same mistake.

Rastan Saga (JP)


Two bats spawn at chest height where you can easily fight back against them.


Rastan (World Rev 1)


Nine fuckin' bats come in from all directions.

Given the differences between the versions, do you prefer the US or World version?

The US version for sure. The World version lets you survive way too many short term mistakes with its 8 healing herb limit, and its overly generous inn system does away with most long term consequences.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but inn prices vary between the two versions. In the US and JP versions, the cost of staying at an inn rises aggressively until it hits 30,000 gold, about as much money as you'll earn in a full playthrough. You're only going to rest around four times per game. The World version's prices cap out at 5,000 gold. The dragon amulet in that version is worth 60,000 gold, so that alone will give you a dozen full recoveries.

With that said, I do think that the World version would be excellent for introducing a beginner to arcade games.

[Sumez]

I guess this explains why I cursed the stupid bats while Squire claimed they are never a problem. I'm not insane after all. I'm gonna go tell my friend whose game I've been playing that he spent all his hard earned cash on the wrong PCB :3

edit: Legendary Axe is still better

[Vanguard]

I thought of another game ya'll might like: Spelunky! It's a roguelike-inspired (ie roguelite) platformer. That essentially means that it has randomly generated levels and permanent death. I think Spelunky's best feature is how nearly every object in the game follows the same set of consistent rules. A good example is the game's motion sensitive arrow traps. If the player moves in front of one, they shoot an arrow. They'll also fire if an enemy, a thrown rock, some gold, or anything else passes in front of them. An arrow trap's arrow can even set off another arrow trap. Understanding the ways all of these elements behave and interact is necessary for survival. It's a solid platforming action game that always keeps you on your toes, because death can strike at any moment.

Here's a video of the path to the game's hidden ending.

[WelshMegalodon]

There's already a dedicated thread, but thanks for the recommendation.

[evil_ash_xero]

Beat Ninja Gaiden.

That was......something.

[BIL]

Well done soldier.

[evil_ash_xero]

Well done soldier.

It got to where I "had" to do it. You know how it is.

[copy-paster]

Would love to see your first impression or cool/bad moments for clearing NG if you don't mind.

[Shoryukev]

I'm stuck in that boss loop. I beat the first form. Died, thrown back to the beginning of the stage. Still can't get past the second form. I know how to, I just keep screwing up. I've fought the last boss before, and I know how to beat him too...but I just have to pull it all together.

That's exactly where I'm at as well. I tried tackling NG1 twice this weekend and kicked myself in the head making too many mistakes during his 2nd form and dying.....getting thrown into that vicious loop!

The hardest part for me is that last stretch before the boss room, I need to figure out how to get into that room with more health......coming back to Jaquio with 1/3 of a health bar just infuriates me!

[Shoryukev]

It got to where I "had" to do it. You know how it is.

Congrats! I know exactly what you mean....I need to study up on that last section of level 6 and finally beat the game.

EDIT: wow this guy makes the end of 6-3 look so easy! Maybe now that I see what to do it won't be so bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzT_gy6G ... w&index=23

[Vanguard]

Requesting admission into the task force!

I actually had written Ninja Gaiden off as a bad game before I found this thread, but you guys set me straight.

[BIL]

Nicely done, will enjoy watching that later! Enjoyment of NG/II/III is by no means mandatory, but such posts do warm my stony heart.

[evil_ash_xero]

Would love to see your first impression or cool/bad moments for clearing NG if you don't mind.

Honestly, I just shook my fist at the screen. That's kind of all I do, when I finally take down one of these super hard games.

I thought I could do it, but the frustration was getting to me. I had to stop playing one night, because I was probably getting ready to slam my head into the TV.

I don't think the game is that bad, until the last level. Holy Diver was much more of a game that made me want to eat the cart.

[Sumez]

Enjoyment of NG/II/III is by no means mandatory

How is it possible to not enjoy them, though?

And don't listen to evil_ash_xero, the final stage of Ninja Gaiden 1 is a masterpiece, and phases 2 and 3 of the final boss, working in tandem, make for one of the most exciting game endings on the NES.
It's sort of baffling to me when people on a forum dedicated to one of the toughest genres out there, featuring games that require months of devotion to clear on one credit, takes offense by a NES game being somewhat challenging. Ninja Gaiden is easily 1cc'ed over a weekend of practice or so.

[BIL]

How is it possible to not enjoy them, though?

In my experience? Poor player syndrome.

I should rephrase - I totally get not liking their Dracula+twitch format much. Outright condemnation seems to go hand in hand with "cheapness" aka RAARGH I JUMPED AND THE BAT BIT MEH, though.

[Sumez]

I'm a poor player, and like the Castlevania games, I think the methodical approach of Ninja Gaiden makes it possible for anyone to consistently clear the game with just a bit of practice.

[BIL]

Nah you're the farthest thing from a poor player - Daimakaimura 2ALL takes a keen sense and some hefty balls. I'm talkin'... REAL FUCKIN SCRUBS 3;

Guys like you and I'd imagine much of our active playerbase who can take a hit, then evaluate the situation and come back stronger will do fine at the hard gaming. If you're the type to screw up then insist the game's at fault rather than undergo sufficient self-analysis (sometimes the game is at fault OFC!) - hooo boy! You're gonna get reamed and/or go thermonuclear! :O

blackoak said something way back on the first page that illuminated my subconsciously acquired, largely unexamined love of this series - they do require and reward rehearsed strategy, sure. But beyond the most basic tenets (remember X spawns here, speedkill Y there, don't hit candle Z there), the calculatedly generous handling and firepower leave much room for improv and even outright error/salvage. That and a small but deadly RNG element that'll sometimes plunge even a totally on-form player into dire straits give these games exceptional balance. They're structured and methodical enough that you can't bullshit through, but also flexible and volatile enough to stave off outright routine. Nazca/SNK's Metal Slugs do something similar at their best, I think.

[Sumez]

I do think Daimakaimura takes some genuine skill! I think its difficulty may be overrated, but there's a lot of reaction stuff and basically constant random patterns that will mess things up for you in a fun way.

Ninja Gaiden is not like this. It's always the same, and the minimal RNG it employs has almost no effect on the difficulty of game. While rarely dependent on trial and error, it is possible to overcome every obstacle in the game by learning the placement of the enemies, and memorizing a pattern that works for you every time. Be generous with your subweapon and learn where it works in your favor. Figure out which enemies are easier to despawn than defeat, etc.
No matter how poor you are, as such you WILL get better the more you play the game. It makes it very approachable while still remaining obviously challenging, and ultimately incredibly rewarding when you get your first 1CC (as my own reaction in my video can document). I would recommend trying to beat Ninja Gaiden 1 to anyone, and I believe they would be able to. Much like the Dark Souls games.

[Squire Grooktook]

Ninja Gaiden is easily 1cc'ed over a weekend of practice or so.

My experience from 1lc'ing the game last year, having not touched it prior for about 10 years:

Credit feed clear took about 1-2 hours of play.
1cc took another session, about 1-2 hours long.
1lc took 2 additional play sessions, about 1-2 hours each.

So 4-7 hours roughly for a 1 life clear.

[Sumez]

I was being generous. I doubt most people would do it as easily as you, so a buffer is in order.

[Squire Grooktook]

Also worth noting for aspiring clears, but I should note that a 1cc isn't that hard after a credit feed clear. As you said the static nature of the game (outside a few specific enemy types that you need to watch yourself around) means that once you got a route for the end-game, you can blaze it pretty consistently. You don't even really need to worry about a stray death because the game doesn't even really have difficult recoveries.

A 1lc on the other hand is the real challenge imo. A lethal fuck up can come at any time.

[BIL]

NG1's RNG (basically its boxers, hunchbacks, lobbers and jetpackers) is more of an endgame bonus than an integral element ala Daimakaimura. It gets progressively more noticeable over time - the more aggressively you're ripping through stages, the more wary you'll become of the aforementioned forcing you to adjust with an early lunge or a scarily accurate shot. This can force you to deal with accompanying static elements slightly differently, too - basically anywhere a lobber is presiding over pincers is ripe for complication.

I can nomiss NG1 probably 95% of the time - but that unknowable 5% keeps me on edge, every run. Combined with the breakneck speed and high-stakes platforming, the addictive daredevilry only grows with experience.

[Sumez]

That one jump on 5-2 is enough for me to not really want to go for a 1lc. Sure I make it most of the time, but whenever I fail it, it feels sort of random.

[BIL]

That one is pretty scary - I find it safest to walk off the edge, then latch onto the leftmost wall, deliberately a bit high. From there, scoot down with a second, small jump (or however many it takes). The margin for getting low enough without falling is fairly reasonable that way. Doing it in one falling action is flirting with death, unless you're icily consistent.

I think you can actually skip it, somewhat, by climbing to the very top of the wall and aggressively glitching through. Been a long time but I seem to recall doing this once.

Love the bit in NGII 4-2 that's exactly the same except you have EZ wallclimb to breeze through. :3

[Shoryukev]

LOL that part gets the best of me all the time, though admittedly I'm a bit of a scrub compared to most if not all that post here.

[Vanguard]

That part single-handedly destroyed one of my promising credits, so I looked up a strategy for beating it reliably, and all you have to do is climb past the top of the wall on the right. I do it in the video I posted earlier.

Enjoyment of NG/II/III is by no means mandatory

How is it possible to not enjoy them, though?

When I first played NG, I really disliked the respawn system where if you kill an enemy in the wrong spot, they instantly disappear. I still don't care for it tbh, but it's much less of an issue once you know what you're doing. I remember that I also didn't like the way half of the hits you take are instakills, and the other half are laughably harmless. Now I kind of like it - when the game gets serious, the player needs to be serious too, but there are also areas where you can bullshit around a little bit without serious consequences. NG is also fairly picky with its hitboxes. It needs to be that way to achieve the high-precision action it's going for, but if you're used to more generous games, it's easy to reach the (incorrect!) conclusion that NG is cheap or badly programmed.

In other words, "poor player syndrome."

[BIL]

^ Totally valid points, all. The respawn is insanely harsh in NG1. I've grown to love the omnipresent menace, punishing retreat and demanding advance, but it's most definitely an acquired taste. Worth noting that NG3 actually lets you make tactical fallbacks while remaining nails-hard. The damage scale is a little mild; more 2HP hitters might've been good, without sacrificing the nice degree of rough-housing improv. Hit detection is onerously demanding, though I'll always maintain it's balanced to alchemic perfection by flawless response/collision, sharply calculated handling flex and the inimitably well-judged swordbox.

Spoiler

^^^ Its BEAUTIFUL :O

What got this thread off to a rancorous start several years back is the notion that NG1's not merely idiosyncratic and unforgiving, but outright objectively broken. The game is lethal and in some ways just mean, but never broken - that's scrub talk/poor playery. You and Kev mustn't be too hard on yourselves. ;3

edits: up late brain no work good repeat much word x_x

[Sumez]

Broken? :O

Ninja Gaiden is one of the most solidly built games I have ever played. Everything is so precise, so rewarding, and so how it should be. When you fail there is never anything you can blame besides yourself. The only taint on it is the mostly lackluster boss fights, but the final boss more than makes up for that. (and honestly, who doesn't enjoy being able to beat three of them with just a single jump)
It is a masterpiece, nothing less.

The crazy spawn mechanic can obviously be off-putting at first, but even if it is odd, it is mainly so because no other game does it like this, a fact which also makes me prefer it over its generally more traditional sequels (most notably the third which completely eliminates respawning).
It's a somewhat abstract game mechanic in regards to the "realism" of the game, but mechanically it's such a fun and predictable feature that it quickly becomes a tool in your arsenal that is at least as useful as the weapons that you wield. I would never want to be without it.