Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Saturngamer81]

I bought it on Yahoo Auctions out of all places. Originally I thought about shipping it on a pallet but my agent suggested TNT Express which turned out cheaper and went really well although I will probably not buy another 20" monitor from Asia again. Like I said it has 7000 hours of usage which I'm satisfied with.

Nice to hear from more Swedish folks. I do have a fellow in Täby who has a 20" BVM (not sure which one but not G1, F1 or E1) and unfortunately the PSU is dead due to the previous owner. I will pay him a visit the upcoming weekend and see what model it is.

I was also thinking of getting through yahoo auctions as they are priced very low for low hours. Can you recommend a good agent service if I decide to do so?. What did the TNT shipping cost? You can respond via PM if you want to save us filling the thread unnecessarily with this little chat.

[BazookaBen]

Very disappointed with the condition and state of this pvm, the filth of it, every part of the chassis is scratched, turning multiple baby wipes pitch black

Who cares, as long as the picture quality is still good. You're not going to be looking at the chassis, you're going to be looking at the screen. All my PVM's were kept in a warehouse and had dents, scratches, and dirt. I just cleaned them a little and proceeded to enjoy hours of games on them.

[Saturngamer81]

My bvm 20g1e was filthy when it arrived, I was shocked by the condition. The screen had low hours and almost perfect geometry etc. I cleaned the chassis panels by removing them and bathing them in a detergent,, looks as good as new now,

Looks can be deceiving, allot of these units have seen many years of storage/smokers etc.

[DrKingSchultz]

My bvm 20g1e was filthy when it arrived, I was shocked by the condition. The screen had low hours and almost perfect geometry etc. I cleaned the chassis panels by removing them and bathing them in a detergent,, looks as good as new now,

Looks can be deceiving, allot of these units have seen many years of storage/smokers etc.

I had to do the same thing, any other method wasn't working, the level of dirt, amazing.

[cools]

I love my little 80s 13" PVM because of its battered nature - the screen and front glass are perfect but the case is all dented and scratched. Looks like a old hacker movie prop.

[sixbynine]

Does anyone of you fine folk know if it’s possible to put two ore more of the same BKM extension cards in one BVM monitor?

[DrKingSchultz]

Naval jelly or blue and rust remover can clean up rust. I'd use it sparingly and only on components after they've been removed from the case.

That said, I'm not seeing a lot of rust on my phone, but maybe some dirty flux.

My stupidity apon closer inspection it was flux, I removed the majority from the board and then left it alone.

[BazookaBen]

Does anyone of you fine folk know if it’s possible to put two ore more of the same BKM extension cards in one BVM monitor?

You should try looking up the manual for your BVM and see if it has any info. My guess would be yes.

[sixbynine]

Can’t find the manual online, but a brochure says: ›Optional input boards can be installed in any board slot, and in any
combination‹. Any combination seems to imply that you could indeed use multiples of the same board.

I’m not in the situation, was just wondering.

[Fudoh]

definitely, one of my BVMs had multiple 21Ds installed when I got it.

Remember though that none of the extension boards will get you an additional (ext) sync input, so it's not much worth for RGBs sources.

[sixbynine]

Don’t the analogue BKM boards all have a sync in themselves?

[BazookaBen]

The BKM-129x has RGB and Sync. I have a few for sale if you're interested.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53288

[Fudoh]

Right, the 129x has sync, but it's one of the smaller boards. Of the larger boards (like the 20D or 21D) none have any additional sync inputs.

[Ed Oscuro]

On the subject of cleaning - toothbrushes can generate static electricity, and so can the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner. I'm not sure if it's a major source of concern, but I finally realized I needed to stop using mine and start using one of the pack of Techspray brushes I got off eBay a while ago. Forget the model #, but I got two packs of 6 for a low price. They are marked as "obsolete" but should still be more than adequate for cleaning up arcade/CRT PCBs.

Edit: A couple nifty eBay finds for primarily Midwesterners, US:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161727775153 - KD-34XBR970
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321774528371 - Mitsubishi CS-35607, 36" with a curved screen from roughly 1998. Looks good.
...and many others.

[Lord of Pirates]

On the subject of cleaning - toothbrushes can generate static electricity, and so can the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner. I'm not sure if it's a major source of concern, but I finally realized I needed to stop using mine and start using one of the pack of Techspray brushes I got off eBay a while ago. Forget the model #, but I got two packs of 6 for a low price. They are marked as "obsolete" but should still be more than adequate for cleaning up arcade/CRT PCBs.

Edit: A couple nifty eBay finds for primarily Midwesterners, US:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161727775153 - KD-34XBR970
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321774528371 - Mitsubishi CS-35607, 36" with a curved screen from roughly 1998. Looks good.
...and many others.

I've never had any trouble using my hose vacuum (metal nozzle) to clean stuff that's powered off.

[DrKingSchultz]

Looking cleaner..

[BazookaBen]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161727775153 - KD-34XBR970

I helped my friend fix his 35XS955 (very similar model) and it is getting really blurry on the sides now. Couldn't fix it completely via service menu. I wonder if it's possible to sharpen it up with magnets or if it's just too old. Color is still great though, and still very sharp in the middle.

[Ed Oscuro]

On the subject of cleaning - toothbrushes can generate static electricity, and so can the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner. I'm not sure if it's a major source of concern, but I finally realized I needed to stop using mine and start using one of the pack of Techspray brushes I got off eBay a while ago. Forget the model #, but I got two packs of 6 for a low price. They are marked as "obsolete" but should still be more than adequate for cleaning up arcade/CRT PCBs.

Edit: A couple nifty eBay finds for primarily Midwesterners, US:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161727775153 - KD-34XBR970
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321774528371 - Mitsubishi CS-35607, 36" with a curved screen from roughly 1998. Looks good.
...and many others.

I've never had any trouble using my hose vacuum (metal nozzle) to clean stuff that's powered off.

I'd definitely not try it with a vacuum using a plastic nozzle. I haven't seen a vacuum with a metal nozzle in a long time, but it could work.

I have read of people damaging stuff with a vacuum - probably talking about more sensitive modern components, but older components are static sensitive all the same, and any damage might not be immediately evident.

[Xan]

On that note, some other good advice would be to never use tap water to clean PCBs. On certain communities people seriously brag about throwing them into a sink of water and washing them with soap.

[Lord of Pirates]

On the subject of cleaning - toothbrushes can generate static electricity, and so can the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner. I'm not sure if it's a major source of concern, but I finally realized I needed to stop using mine and start using one of the pack of Techspray brushes I got off eBay a while ago. Forget the model #, but I got two packs of 6 for a low price. They are marked as "obsolete" but should still be more than adequate for cleaning up arcade/CRT PCBs.

Edit: A couple nifty eBay finds for primarily Midwesterners, US:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161727775153 - KD-34XBR970
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321774528371 - Mitsubishi CS-35607, 36" with a curved screen from roughly 1998. Looks good.
...and many others.

I've never had any trouble using my hose vacuum (metal nozzle) to clean stuff that's powered off.

I'd definitely not try it with a vacuum using a plastic nozzle. I haven't seen a vacuum with a metal nozzle in a long time, but it could work.

I have read of people damaging stuff with a vacuum - probably talking about more sensitive modern components, but older components are static sensitive all the same, and any damage might not be immediately evident.

I almost always run it at the lowest setting and almost never make contact with whatever I'm vacuuming, I use it fairly frequently to clean things I'm actively using. I don't think I'd go suggesting everyone vacuum their electronics clean but I haven't had trouble yet (that I've noticed).

[Ed Oscuro]

Great, but I don't want people to be confused - vacuums generate static electricity and this can kill components.

[Lord of Pirates]

Great, but I don't want people to be confused - vacuums generate static electricity and this can kill components.

I'm just commenting as to my own experience since you mentioned vacuums, I have no intention of trying to confuse anyone or say otherwise.

[Ed Oscuro]

On that note, some other good advice would be to never use tap water to clean PCBs. On certain communities people seriously brag about throwing them into a sink of water and washing them with soap.

For the heck of it I researched this a bit to see if I can improve my own practices. The real answer about washing with water is "it depends", see Mike Jones' excellent answer at the link (as well as the others). It has to be said: Industry needs and practice are different from hobbyists, and one person's tap water is very different from another's.

The short and quick answer is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and don't try cleaning a PCB, alcohol or otherwise, unless you want to do it the right way and really clear off all the gunk. I wouldn't call the layer of grime on retired PCBs "protective" but at this point it has probably already done all the damage to metal surfaces it would do - the rationale left has to be in terms of creating capacitance (shorts) across the board, which I think has been demonstrated negligible. So probably the PCB washing business is really about aesthetics / general cleanliness.

The longer answer...there's a couple things to consider: Will the cleaning leave the PCB in better shape? For a huge number of ex-arcade boards, the answer is clearly yes, if you do it right.

Next, will the soap or water stay on the PCB or add salt? It's important to completely remove soap and water, and dry the board completely not just before use, but before any rust or corrosion can form (from oxygen or salts in the water). That's a major part of the reason for the anti-water talk in industry; they can't ship out or install components with water in them, whereas a smart hobbyist won't try to run a wet board.

A wash with alcohol, in my experience, doesn't do a better job than a carefully chosen soap + water in removing contaminants; there's still likely to be "water spots" of dissolved residues placed back on the board.

For '80s vintage PCBs I'd have no concern about using tap water, so long as everything is dried quickly and carefully to avoid rusting. It's a good idea to rinse with filtered water, if you can do it, to make sure of removing salt.

As a parallel to the talk about vacuums, it's funny how we're talking at the edge of best practice, but where I'd classify vacuums on electronics as having no practical purpose (aside from perhaps grabbing loose dust at a far distance), washing definitely has a place and it's an affordable method for hobbyists to keep their components clean.

[bobrocks95]

While we're on the topic, do blowers of any kind generate static electricity? I use a leaf blower to dust out my computer case every 8 months or so, is that likely to damage anything?

[Ed Oscuro]

Any time you're moving air past a regular plastic tube, it can generate static. That said, I think most people keep the nozzle further away with a blower, so I wouldn't worry so much.

[Eretro86]

Hi I recently got a BVM 20f1e and have hooked it up to my emotia using BNC to the analogue board and have caps on the output connectors. However I'm getting a shakey image with the lines appearing to move up and down on the tube which shouldn't be the case as it's a 240p signal. Has anyone had a similar issue and knows of a setting I'm over looking or do you think it's faulty?

Thanks

[Fudoh]

You got a proper 240p-enabled Emotia unit ? There are a few Emotia models that read "non-interlaced" on the front, but don't actually support it.

[lui]

After soldering in the new capacitors, the image was still displaying that pinkish reddish hue, so I decided to simply connect them directly and resolder the joints, which cleared up the image. I'm going to assume the capacitor leak corroded all the joints and traces. Although the board is still in fairly bad shape, I am now getting what I assume to be RGB.



Although, if this were hypothetically in perfect condition, with no corrosion would I be receiving an image that is any clearer/more vibrant that I am now with this somewhat "haphazard" solder job?

[kamiboy]

Looks good to me.

[Eretro86]

The emotia was working with 240p output with my old scart CRT. The shake is not like a 480i flicker but a slightly juddering image. The scanlines are still visible.