Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[kamiboy]

It is the JP21 cable. It is known to have leaky capacitor issues. Better open it up and replace the caps fast.

[lui]

It is the JP21 cable. It is known to have leaky capacitor issues. Better open it up and replace the caps fast.

Thank you for the help kami.

So this would mean that the capacitors can leak, even if the cable has not been used?
I will take some images if it can help you confirm that the capacitors are leaking.

[kamiboy]

Electrolytic capacitors either dry out or leak by themselves over time, even if they have never been used. Pictures wont be necessary, you should see the dark corrosive liquid spilt on the inside as soon as you open that baby up.

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

Could it be the UI being HD or something whereas a PS2 is natively the same resolution?

It just it hit that someone once told me that the PS3 actually forces out all analog signals at once no matter what setting you have, so I assume that’s the case and this old CRT doesn’t appreciate that. But judging from this experience it seems that the PS3 only does that when the XMB is active, and not during PS2 and PS1 games.

[lui]

Electrolytic capacitors either dry out or leak by themselves over time, even if they have never been used. Pictures wont be necessary, you should see the dark corrosive liquid spilt on the inside as soon as you open that baby up.

To clear things up, I'm assuming all the fault lies with the RGB cable given these images?

Even taking the small PCB out results in the liquid getting all over my fingers, I had presumed it would be dry but the entire board has capacitor fluid over it.

[BazookaBen]

ewwwwww. Yeah, that's definitely your problem. Not sure what you should use to clean it. I know I used baking soda on leaked battery acid.

[kamiboy]

To clear things up, I'm assuming all the fault lies with the RGB cable given these images?

Even taking the small PCB out results in the liquid getting all over my fingers, I had presumed it would be dry but the entire board has capacitor fluid over it.

The problem is with those three capacitors no longer working. Clean up the mess and replace all three with new caps and you are good to go. What I did was just rinse the whole thing under tap water, then gave it a once over with some isopropyl.

[wyatt8740]

Or, save the trouble and just do it internally, ditch the SCART cable.


For internal pics and details, see this album:
http://imgur.com/a/GYZQu#2

Note that you only need three capacitors, I just didn't have three 220uf caps lying around. So I put some in parallel.

Also, you can do this in the SCART cable since you already have one, but you want to clean of the electrolyte first.

[RGB32E]

To clear things up, I'm assuming all the fault lies with the RGB cable given these images?

Even taking the small PCB out results in the liquid getting all over my fingers, I had presumed it would be dry but the entire board has capacitor fluid over it.

The problem is with those three capacitors no longer working. Clean up the mess and replace all three with new caps and you are good to go. What I did was just rinse the whole thing under tap water, then gave it a once over with some isopropyl.

Yeah, just clean up all of the fluid with rubbing alcohol and replace the caps. My favorite caps for RGB cables are the Panasonic 6SEPC220M. They're really high quality and are about the same size as what is in the SHVC-010. Trying to replace the caps with random ones won't turn out so well (hood won't close for starters).

[wyatt8740]

My favorite caps for RGB cables are the Panasonic 6SEPC220M. They're really high quality and are about the same size as what is in the SHVC-010. Trying to replace the caps with random ones won't turn out so well (hood won't close for starters).

Oh, please.
Besides tolerance range (yours like most electrolytics are ± 20%) the capacitor doesn't matter much at all. 'High quality' ones will work exactly as well as 'low quality' ones... especially when your high quality ones have the same tolerance range as the 33 cent ones I'm about to link to. They only act as high pass filters to remove the 1V DC from the lines.
Please don't throw money at things because a capacitor 'looks' right... look at the ratings.

Caps of the same tolerance and high enough voltage with a radial mount can be had for 33 cents apiece... Just buy those.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... -ND/245012
I assume that 1.2 centimeter tall caps will fit sideways in there. I don't have a SCART cable.

By the way, you can determine the tolerance (meaning your capacitor may have up to X more or less capacitance than the label indicates) with this chart: https://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Cap ... itor_Codes

[RGB32E]

You've stated that you have no experience with the official cable, yet you claim larger caps will fit in the SHVC-010 21 pin plug? Clearly you are clueless in this matter, as 8mm x 12mm caps won't fit correctly in the PCB and the plug hood. Your SNES mod is interesting and all, as well as your demonstration of Ohm's law, but you shouldn't be parading it around like it's the ideal solution for a problem it doesn't fix - in this case, lui's cable that needs a repair.

Selecting appropriately sized capacitors with low ESR for a dollar more isn't going to break anyone's bank - shipping alone would cost more!

[DrKingSchultz]

Hi, I have been reading through this thread, I must say there is a huge wealth of information here but I must admit being the novice that I am when coming to all things electrical, reading a lot of these posts is like trying to read hieroglyphics.

so from my understanding, the Sony BVM-20F1E is thee best crt monitor available for retro gaming and the Pioneer PDP-V402EU is the biggest size, flat, light weight monitor (in comparison) and is also the best monitor in its size class for retro gaming, living within the UK and not being able to find either of these monitors for sale anywhere, my question is..

I have a sega megadrive and a snes that I have tried playing on various hd flat screens but the picture quality is rubbish and is all stretched out and doesn't look right, so searching for a solution to this problem I arrive here.

But I am still perplexed..

What is the best crt TV for me to purchase that is relatively easy to find on the market? price and travelling to collect, available space/size is not an issue, I just want to buy the right TV..

I want a TV that is going to give a real good quality picture without taking 50 hours to tune it whilst playing the md or snes also if possible the monitor being equipped with a decent pair of speakers, that being said..

Am I better off waiting until, either of the two monitors mentioned above show up on eBay or is there a better place for me to look for them? if someone could point me in the right direction? That would be greatly appreciated..

Or is it better if I just pick up a more easily obtainable crt, of a slightly lesser quality but still great for retro gaming, I have read good things about the Sony trinitrons and that it has to be 4:3 and support 60hz, is there a specific model I should be looking for?

I also read the B&O were good but are a nightmare to tune and store the settings, if someone could enlighten me I would greatly appreciated it, thank you.

Edit I have read through 36 pages so far..

The

KV-29xx is a PVM-like 29" tube, very nice. KV-C27 and KV-C29 are also great.

consumer Trinitron: KV-25X1B or KV29X1B.

These models are meant to be good, does anyone have any further recommendations?

I have found these sets on eBay, are any of them any good? which is the best of the lot and what it's worth paying for it?

Sony BVM's:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-BVM-D24E ... 3cf9321d06

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-BVM-D24- ... 3cfab242f6

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-BVM-A24- ... 3cfab24839

Sony PVM's:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SONY-PVM-TRIN ... 4aea48a6e2

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-PVM-9041 ... 25a74860f6

Sony KV's:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-Televisi ... 33a38c6803

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-WEGA-28- ... 3aaadc7bf0

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SONY-TRINITRO ... 3cfb01ee83

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SONY-Analogue ... 4d32d6fa50

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TV-Sony-29inc ... 43dd94bd8c

Apologies in advance if I come across ignorant, naive/stupid, I am trying to learn and I am trying to research this, I am very grateful for the patience and advise from the experts here.

[opt2not]

You've stated that you have no experience with the official cable, yet you claim larger caps will fit in the SHVC-010 21 pin plug? Clearly you are clueless in this matter, as 8mm x 12mm caps won't fit correctly in the PCB and the plug hood. Your SNES mod is interesting and all, as well as your demonstration of Ohm's law, but you shouldn't be parading it around like it's the ideal solution for a problem it doesn't fix - in this case, lui's cable that needs a repair.

Selecting appropriately sized capacitors with low ESR for a dollar more isn't going to break anyone's bank - shipping alone would cost more!

^ Exactly this.

[Finger]

Hi there,

I have been lucky to get my hands on a BVM-20G1E. Display is perfect on a DC or with my supergun. Unfortunatley, with a snes mini RGB sending csync the image top is "waving" and bended to the left :





Even with the overscan setting and display adjustement, I can get rid of it without getting the dialogue bubbles cut.

Any idea where does that come from ? btw, same issue with my other carts.

Thanks

[Mishrak109]

snip

Don't ship these if you can avoid it. Shipping them is really risky and you run a very good chance of receiving a damaged piece of equipment or you'll pay huge amounts of money to ship it. Ebay works well if you can find a local seller. If you're in the States, try Craigslist or local electronics recycling places. Occasionally a TV station network might have them so you could try there also.

Consumer CRTs like the Sony Wega should be pretty readily available for next to nothing and will have speakers. The 32" one weighs around 170lbs so bring a friend if you go that route.

[kamiboy]

Schultz, do not get too caught up in chasing the "best" unless you know yourself to suffer from OCD when it comes to image quality.

B&O CRT's are great for retro gaming. Good image quality and great sound in a nice looking compact package. If they are easy and cheap to find where you live then they are a great choice.

[Mishrak109]

I agree w/ kamiboy.

I have a PVM 20L2MD and it is 600 TV Lines of amazing. The top end monitors almost lose the retro feel because the quality is too perfect. I mean the image is gorgeous but barring the occasional sweet deal, people seem to charge a huge amount for the L5's and the BVM F1Us these days.

[DrKingSchultz]

@mishrak109 Thank you, I remember reading about if your going to ship, ship face down on a pallet, I will be collecting in person, so that won't be a concern, I was looking at the wega's, but I thought it was best to not go larger than 29" because the crts over the size of 20" can have geometry issues or I may be getting confused and speaking out of term here, I remember reading something here along those lines..

@kamiboy Thank you also, when I do things I do tend to always have a ocd about doing whatever it is I am doing, perfectly ha ha, I just want a top notch TV for my retro systems but it seems like such a confusing task.. Are any of them eBay links I posted any good? Would you mind taking a minute and having a look when your not busy n letting me what you think?

I have read good things about the MX series regarding B&O crts, but a major design flaw also, after tedious tuning and fiddling with the settings and getting the perfect picture, playing your games, you switch off the set and it forgets/doesn't save your settings when it's next turned on.

Edit..

@mishrak109

Is this the same set you have?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SONY-PVM-TRIN ... 4aea48a6e2

Does this TV look issue/problem free to you? What's it worth, the seller thinks they can go for £200 hmm, do you think this is worth acquiring?

VVV the prices on eBay now days are always inflated especially when in regards to anything retro, you reccomend this set though, As yours is basically the same with more inputs? I think I'm going to throw him an offer..

[Mishrak109]

I'm not sure what kinds of geometry issues exist among the WEGA CRTs. The nice thing about them is they're so available/cheap that you should have a wide variety to chose from.

I have the endoscopy monitor version of the PVM 20L2 which comes with the extra RGB board on it. I paid $175 USD (which was probably too high anyway) for mine, although the guy didn't have prices listed. I'm not a very good haggler.

I can't judge the quality over the internet with so few pictures. Without testing it I can't say it's good or bad. Make sure you bring your system with you to test it.

I wouldn't pay more than $200 USD for any of these CRTs except maybe the very top end CRTs if they were in excellent condition. Prices are way too inflated on eBay.

[kamiboy]

Mishrak, remember that average prices differ greatly from country to country. The local prices you quote may not be realistic for someone based out of UK.

Schultz, i have no experience with SONY consumer sets, so I cannot comment on those. But as long as they are not 100hz sets the image quality should be somewhere between a PVM and a B&O. I do find the design aesthetics of just about any none B&O consumer set to be quite ugly though.


As for the pro SONY models that you list, if I had to choose one from among the ones you link I would go with the L2. I find the image quality of the L2 most pleasing among the pro SONY monitors. But 1000 quid seems a smidgen too steep.

[noonan2678]

Hi there,

I have been lucky to get my hands on a BVM-20G1E. Display is perfect on a DC or with my supergun. Unfortunatley, with a snes mini RGB sending csync the image top is "waving" and bended to the left :

Even with the overscan setting and display adjustement, I can get rid of it without getting the dialogue bubbles cut.

Any idea where does that come from ? btw, same issue with my other carts.

Thanks

Same exact thing happens to me with a couple consoles on my PVM. I use an Extron interface and enabling DDSP corrects it. I use the 201Rxi, but any with this feature should do it.

[Mishrak109]

Mishrak, remember that average prices differ greatly from country to country. The local prices you quote may not be realistic for someone based out of UK.

Well of course. That's why I made sure to specify it was USD that I was talking about. I also wasn't really quoting a price so much as saying what I was willing to pay. Anyone who wanted to get a rough idea of what I spent in their currency could calculate the exchange rate and see what I spent. That's why I specifically used USD though and didn't tell him what he should spend in £.

[DrKingSchultz]

Mishrak, remember that average prices differ greatly from country to country. The local prices you quote may not be realistic for someone based out of UK.

Schultz, i have no experience with SONY consumer sets, so I cannot comment on those. But as long as they are not 100hz sets the image quality should be somewhere between a PVM and a B&O. I do find the design aesthetics of just about any none B&O consumer set to be quite ugly though.


As for the pro SONY models that you list, if I had to choose one from among the ones you link I would go with the L2. I find the image quality of the L2 most pleasing among the pro SONY monitors. But 1000 quid seems a smidgen too steep.

Just a smidgen! I won it for £100, but there was an update to the listing saying there is color bleeding sneaky prob give it a miss now

"you are collecting, I am more than happy to provide a demonstration of the product.

Please Read: Exterior of item will have general wear and tear/damage/scratches, however this does not affect the performance of the item.

ALSO: I have noticed in the top right hand side that the colour is starting to bleed (doesn't appear to pick up on the camera), still plays well

One of the cheapest ones monitors online!!!

Sony Badge on the front has gone missing"





^^^ is that the bleed on the top left side of the yellow hair

Am I wasting my time?

[Mishrak109]

It's not completely uncommon for these to have slight geometry or bleeding issues and often enough you probably won't even be able to notice it. You want to avoid ones that are off significantly or have major bleeding issues/burn-in. I can't tell if that's bleed or not.

£100 seems like a pretty nice price though.

[DrKingSchultz]

I will go see it in person and report back with my findings, fingers crossed, thank you so much for all the help.

What should I be looking out for when I got to collect, jitters, waves and blurs/color distortion right?

I also found this link with a good article for anyone that needs a crash course In retro CRT TVs.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=630556

[BazookaBen]

The pictures he took were too blurry anyway. A little bit of bleeding (aka bad convergence) is to be expected, and you can fix it to a degree in the service menu. I would just run some test patterns on it and make sure the color is good and the sharpness is decent. Just don't go in expecting perfect geometry, CRT's never have perfect geometry.

[DrKingSchultz]

The pictures he took were too blurry anyway. A little bit of bleeding (aka bad convergence) is to be expected, and you can fix it to a degree in the service menu. I would just run some test patterns on it and make sure the color is good and the sharpness is decent. Just don't go in expecting perfect geometry, CRT's never have perfect geometry.

This is all a foreign language to me, how would I go about running test patterns when I go to collect it, I think the seller is prepared to show the TV running with a snes or something hooked up, tbh I'm not sure what I should be looking out for, I am inexperienced when it comes to crt's and far from an expert in this field, even after reading some 40 something pages here, as long as there is not waves running through the screen and distortion/blurry image on screen, I'd be hard pressed to tell if something is wrong, I was going to purchase and report back here with images to see the general consensus.

Could anyone link me to a few pictures or a YouTube video on the dangers and big red flags that could be present when buying a 20 year old crt, what should I be looking out for when trying to perform a proper test when I am collecting the set.

As I don't want to be taking a 3 hour drive to collect a brick, I dare think, I would never live it down with the wife.

[BazookaBen]

Could anyone link me to a few pictures or a YouTube video on the dangers and big red flags that could be present when buying a 20 year old crt, what should I be looking out for when trying to perform a proper test when I am collecting the set.

Well, I think you're basically as qualified as me. You lived through the 90's, right? You were surround by tubes. Did you never see one that was going bad? If the tube isn't doing stuff like that then I would be OK with it for the most part.

For all the PVM's I've purchased in the past, I would take a PS3 with a component cable and BNC adapters, and I would have images from this website loaded on it. An S-video cable would even work too. I guess if you only had a composite cable, it would probably work well enough to notice any serious issues.

Better yet would be to bring a Wii or some older console running the 240p test suite: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35554

That's all I got.

[Ed Oscuro]

I lived through the '90s too, and never really saw a tube going bad outside of kiosks/airports. Dealing with heavily abused commercial equipment is really a different thing.

It could be the set has a minor purity problem that could be fixed, or it could be something worse. Some Trinitron sets get their aperture grille wires stuck in the wrong position and that can't be fixed. You can always try a simple test by knocking the side gently

[wyatt8740]

You've stated that you have no experience with the official cable, yet you claim larger caps will fit in the SHVC-010 21 pin plug? Clearly you are clueless in this matter, as 8mm x 12mm caps won't fit correctly in the PCB and the plug hood. Your SNES mod is interesting and all, as well as your demonstration of Ohm's law, but you shouldn't be parading it around like it's the ideal solution for a problem it doesn't fix - in this case, lui's cable that needs a repair.

Selecting appropriately sized capacitors with low ESR for a dollar more isn't going to break anyone's bank - shipping alone would cost more!

Well, when I looked at the description of the caps in your link, it appeared that they would both fit. especially when I was looking at SCART sizes. Was not aware this was a D terminal, should have read closer. My mistake.

The low ESR thing is certainly true.
And my 'bank' is relatively tight right now, so as a college student I use what I already have where possible.

I lived through the '90s too, and never really saw a tube going bad outside of kiosks/airports. Dealing with heavily abused commercial equipment is really a different thing.

It could be the set has a minor purity problem that could be fixed, or it could be something worse. Some Trinitron sets get their aperture grille wires stuck in the wrong position and that can't be fixed. You can always try a simple test by knocking the side gently

I had a tube go bad once. It was an ancient sylvania TV console (wood grain furniture kind, early 70's color set). Great TV but near the end it was getting a lot of color issues at the top of the display (tinted purple, degauss did not help), and horrible convergence issues. Was not burned in, though.

I was young then, so I may have missed the actual cause. Only thing I can think of is magnetization from the VCR that (I think) we kept on top of it. It was a long time ago.

The other place I've seen anything was a slight burn-in on an IBM 3161 ASCII terminal I own.

I agree w/ kamiboy.

I have a PVM 20L2MD and it is 600 TV Lines of amazing. The top end monitors almost lose the retro feel because the quality is too perfect. I mean the image is gorgeous but barring the occasional sweet deal, people seem to charge a huge amount for the L5's and the BVM F1Us these days.

Free 20L5 here, from a local public television station upgrading to digital and 1080p
Pretty sweet.