NESRGB board available now

[TheRetromancer]

I get that - and in a way high quality output out of a Famicom seems a bit unnatural to me, no matter what the solution

See, I don't think that's quite the right way to look at it. The internal video signal is generated according to what the game tells it that it should. Sure, the native PPU on the system isn't capable out outputting a high-resolution signal, but why should we have to settle for anything less than what the game intended?

I mean, that's the point of modding, right? To get around limitations of the hardware in order to achieve a desired result.

Just because the original NES/Famicom wasn't able to generate a high quality video signal doesn't mean that the low-res composite image is the One True Image. Take the N64 for example - early iterations of the console generated RGB video, but stepped it down to composite and S-video. Why should we limit ourselves to low-fidelity just because that's what we're used to?

[ms06fz]

I get that - and in a way high quality output out of a Famicom seems a bit unnatural to me, no matter what the solution

See, I don't think that's quite the right way to look at it. The internal video signal is generated according to what the game tells it that it should. Sure, the native PPU on the system isn't capable out outputting a high-resolution signal, but why should we have to settle for anything less than what the game intended?

Like I said, it bothers me enough that I think about this stuff, but it doesn't bother me so much that it'll stop me. Honestly, I've got "worse" mods in mind for my consoles - like USB controller ports for instance...

I think it's really neat how the NESRGB works, because the original PPU actually is generating the image, in the form of palette indices for each pixel. So barring bugs in the NESRGB implementation (and there have been a few, as expected of any complex project) the result is a very authentic experience, and truer to the original Famicom (IMO) than an RGB PPU.

I think there's also a case to be made that the poor signal quality is part of the experience, and games designed from the start to look good under those poor signal conditions look their best under those conditions... I can appreciate that viewpoint but, like you, I'd rather have a good signal carrying the original pixel data. So as soon as I can get my hands on a NESRGB board I'm gonna mod at least one of my systems...

If you take console modding to its logical extreme, you'd wind up with an antique system stuffed to the gills with modern technology supplementing or simulating old technology. One of the really messed-up things about my planned USB mod, for instance, is that just to operate the USB bus and talk to game controllers, I'd need to add a microcontroller that's far more powerful than the Famicom's CPU... That's a little messed up. Now imagine that plus PLDs on the cartridge slot (i.e. Everdrive) and PPU (NESRGB or Universal PPU)... It starts to feel like a "Darth Vader" kind of machine, less and less of the original remaining as more and more things get replaced.

[CkRtech]

Hey all -

I finally managed to snag some pictures that *almost* clearly indicate some of the minor issues I am having.

The first is the interference. It can be seen on this screen with the more vibrant palette (I assume "garish"). If you look in the top right quadrant of the water, you can see what appear to be bands. Those are actually moving lines of what I assume to be interference that have been frozen in a photo. They are bobbing, weaving, and dancing when you see them in person and not in a still photo. They are also more prevalent than the picture indicates.



Here is a close-up on Mario with that same palette selected. You can see a bit of what I believe to be ghosting to the left of his head. The underwater plant life has it as well. I also think I noticed it on the flagpole.



I am fairly certain it is 100% a cable problem. I only hope it is also 100% external cabling, and the hook-up wire I used inside to go from NESRGB board to output jack is just fine. I assume that no matter how "shielded" from EMI/RMI my 8 pin mini din cable claims to be, it isn't good enough & perhaps the internal signals (R,G,B,Sync) aren't well guarded from each other. Any thoughts from you guys?

[ApolloBoy]

Would anybody even bother with the Titler at this point? Prior to NESRGB I would've been all over it, but now... NESRGB delivers comparable output but with a better palette and compatibility (Titler has the same PPU as the Playchoice, right?) It seems like a waste to pay outrageous prices for a Titler just for the sake of RGB output.

Speaking of PC-10 PPUs, I've noticed that the price for those has really taken a hit lately. I saw a few on eBay that sold for less than $70 which I thought I'd never see. I bet prices for the Titler will slowly start going down before too long as well.

[keropi]

@CkRtech

if you think it's the external cable then sacrifice a hdmi cable to test... I have opened 2 hdmi cables so far and I found that the RGB lines + one more (sync? data? no idea what , they might not be called rgb at all but it's their color ) are individually shielded . So it's a great way to rule out interference and if it works then just keep it
mind that the hdmi cables consist of single-core wires, if it makes any difference...

[Pasky]

Titler won't go down in price, as it is a very uncommon piece of hardware. It's price wasn't artificially inflated by hoarders like the PC-10's.

[Fudoh]

@CkRtech: the halos on your Mario closeup shot could easily be caused by the processing on your display. It's no uncommon and falls under chroma upscampling problems. Are you running through a processor ?

[CkRtech]

@CkRtech: the halos on your Mario closeup shot could easily be caused by the processing on your display. It's no uncommon and falls under chroma upscampling problems. Are you running through a processor ?

Running it through framemeister -> HDMI input on a Samsung computer monitor.

[RGB32E]

@CkRtech: the halos on your Mario closeup shot could easily be caused by the processing on your display. It's no uncommon and falls under chroma upscampling problems. Are you running through a processor ?

upscampling = up scaling + chroma subsampling. New term!

Running it through framemeister -> HDMI input on a Samsung computer monitor.

I'd reset your mini, and manually adjust video scaler H to 4 or 5. That should reduce the ringing if you're outputting 1080p to a 1080p display. The biggest thing I dislike about the mini is that it does chroma sub-sampling. So, if two different enough colors are adjacent, you'll have a different color on the boarder of the pixels.

For the noise you're describing I would suggest playing around with the AD level adjustment. If the noise changes position on the screen then it's in part a source issue and a mini issue.

[Fudoh]

definitely what RGB32E said regarding your noise problem. Probably just an unfortunate A/D level setting on your Mini.

[CkRtech]

My A/D was on 128. I bumped it to just 129, and everything was suddenly perfect. It looks like it may need a bit of tweaking when switching between palettes, but I think I am ready to close up the NES. Only other thing I might consider is upgrading the external cable.

As for the ghosting, it seems like that remains...but even the OSD letters on the mini seemed to have a bit of that...so it could probably be a display tweak. This isn't the primary display I use for my gaming - It is just close to the workbench. Therefore, I am going to let that go.

Thanks for your help, RGB32E and Fudoh...and everyone else that frequents this thread and pitches in.

[Voultar]

So for testing, I temporarily wired a S-Video DIN to my NESRGB. I then used two different types of S-Video Cables. One, being a 4 core shielded cable, and the 2nd being an S-Video cable that I created myself. I made the 2nd cable so that I could have total control of the wire seperation for the S-Video signals. Keep in mind, I'm pulling the S-Video signal directly off of the outputs from the NESRGB, so there shouldn't be an interference issue between the NESRGB and the cable itself.


Needless to say, the diagonal lines haven't improved in any respect. On any of my NESRGB modded systems.

So as far as I'm concerned, the S-Video interference that i'm experiencing still doesn't have a definite explanation.

[Pasky]

How's your routing from the NESRGB to the mini din for the svideo? Is it going over any IC's or tangled up in any other wires that could cause interference?

[Voultar]

How's your routing from the NESRGB to the mini din for the svideo? Is it going over any IC's or tangled up in any other wires that could cause interference?

To eliminate any possible interference issues, I terminated both chroma and luma from the NESRGB Y/C outputs with shielded cable.

Obviously poor cables can have a profound effect on signal quality. But I don't understand why an official SNES S-Video cable would be insufficient, whilst it's plenty efficient for the SNES, N64, and Gamecube consoles.

[Pasky]

You could try putting a 33pF or so cap in series with the chroma line and see if that clears up any interference. Also, have you tried multiple displays (i.e. tv's), is it just one or all you've tried?

[Voultar]

You could try putting a 33pF or so cap in series with the chroma line and see if that clears up any interference. Also, have you tried multiple displays (i.e. tv's), is it just one or all you've tried?

I believe I have a few .1uF capacitors around, I may try tagging one of those onto Chroma.

All of the NESRGB systems I'm using are being affected, other than the various connectors and cables I've tried, I have a Sony Trinitron, a Samsung WEGA, and a couple of LCD panels that accept S-Video. The results are the same, across the board.

[Pasky]

EDIT:

Actually, I was thinking composite, .1uF might do the trick on the chroma line, a lower value would probably work better though.

[lettuce]

Need some help with faulty finding.

Installed the NESRGB on a NTSC frontloader using the internal NES regulator, upon trying the NES after install i was getting no display only a humming sound through the speakers, i disabled the palette switch and hooked up the side video connections again no signal and only a humming sound (so probably no NESRGB related?), i must of had the NES turned on for about 2 minutes when i started to noticed smoke from the large capacitor on the PSU shielded section of the NES (top right) so quickly turned the NES off, it was working fine prior to installing the NESRGB. Any ideas what would cause this issue???

[TheRetromancer]

Need some help with faulty finding.

Installed the NESRGB on a NTSC frontloader using the internal NES regulator, upon trying the NES after install i was getting no display only a humming sound through the speakers, i disabled the palette switch and hooked up the side video connections again no signal and only a humming sound (so probably no NESRGB related?), i must of had the NES turned on for about 2 minutes when i started to noticed smoke from the large capacitor on the PSU shielded section of the NES (top right) so quickly turned the NES off, it was working fine prior to installing the NESRGB. Any ideas what would cause this issue???

If I recall correctly, the 2200uf cap is one of the first things that your voltage hits, even before the regulator.

Outlet->Transformer->.01 decoupling cap->Bridge Rectifier->2200uf cap

If I had a guess, either the cap itself was bad anyway, or your bridge rectifier blew - you sure you had the right power source hooked up to it?

EDIT: Edited for less confusion and accuracy.

[lettuce]

Need some help with faulty finding.

Installed the NESRGB on a NTSC frontloader using the internal NES regulator, upon trying the NES after install i was getting no display only a humming sound through the speakers, i disabled the palette switch and hooked up the side video connections again no signal and only a humming sound (so probably no NESRGB related?), i must of had the NES turned on for about 2 minutes when i started to noticed smoke from the large capacitor on the PSU shielded section of the NES (top right) so quickly turned the NES off, it was working fine prior to installing the NESRGB. Any ideas what would cause this issue???

If I recall correctly, the 2200uf cap is one of the first things that your voltage hits, even before the regulator.

Vin->Magnetic Core Transformer->.01 decoupling cap->Bridge Rectifier->2200uf cap

If I had a guess, either the cap itself was bad anyway, or your bridge rectifier blew - you sure you had the right power source hooked up to it?

Hmm, yeah i use the offical UK SNES PSU AC 230/240V 9v 1.3A.

What could cause the bridge rectifier to blow?

EDIT: I just tried this same game cart in a previously modded NES and as soon as i powered it on i started getting that humming sound, so it must have been the cart that cased the burn out??. Ive never heard of such a thing before though!?

[TheRetromancer]

Hmm, yeah i use the offical UK SNES PSU AC 230/240V 9v 1.3A.

What could cause the bridge rectifier to blow?

EDIT: I just tried this same game cart in a previously modded NES and as soon as i powered it on i started getting that humming sound, so it must have been the cart that cased the burn out??. Ive never heard of such a thing before though!?

Uh, you mean the NES adapter? You have the right voltage and amp rating, but the SNES used a 10v 850mA PSU.

No, there should be no way that a cart could cause the sort of power draw needed to fry the system - I can imagine the cart getting toasted in that circumstance, but not the console. What cart were you using, and did your other modded NES work with a different cart?

Actually, I'm wondering if it's your power supply itself - it's not impossible for a short in one of the transistors inside a PSU as old as that to cause the fine wires inside of the transistor melt together and create an open circuit, which pretty much will draw as much current as it possibly can. I would recommend shelving that PSU and trying another on your working NES.

[lettuce]

Hmm, yeah i use the offical UK SNES PSU AC 230/240V 9v 1.3A.

What could cause the bridge rectifier to blow?

EDIT: I just tried this same game cart in a previously modded NES and as soon as i powered it on i started getting that humming sound, so it must have been the cart that cased the burn out??. Ive never heard of such a thing before though!?

Uh, you mean the NES adapter? You have the right voltage and amp rating, but the SNES used a 10v 850mA PSU.

No, there should be no way that a cart could cause the sort of power draw needed to fry the system - I can imagine the cart getting toasted in that circumstance, but not the console. What cart were you using, and did your other modded NES work with a different cart?

Actually, I'm wondering if it's your power supply itself - it's not impossible for a short in one of the transistors inside a PSU as old as that to cause the fine wires inside of the transistor melt together and create an open circuit, which pretty much will draw as much current as it possibly can. I would recommend shelving that PSU and trying another on your working NES.

Well the adapter says for Super NES use only, so i figured it was for the SNES. The NES has been working fine in the past just seem odd that im also getting this humming sound on this NES now aswell, the cart im using is Super Spike Volley Ball. I have tried an OEM 9v 1.2amp PSU also and that does the same thing, so that only leaves the cart at fault right??

[TheRetromancer]

Honest to god, I've got nothing. All the standard possibilities (accidental solder bridge, power surges, component failures) seem to be ruled out by your other modded NES. I mean, unless you somehow hit upon a one-in-a-million way of installing the NESRGB board that would let it work for a bit and THEN fry something (which I strongly doubt), I am at a total loss to explain what's happening.

My only other course of action would be to try plugging into a different wall socket - who knows?

[lettuce]

Honest to god, I've got nothing. All the standard possibilities (accidental solder bridge, power surges, component failures) seem to be ruled out by your other modded NES. I mean, unless you somehow hit upon a one-in-a-million way of installing the NESRGB board that would let it work for a bit and THEN fry something (which I strongly doubt), I am at a total loss to explain what's happening.

My only other course of action would be to try plugging into a different wall socket - who knows?

Ive got another cart coming from eBay, so ill test that when it get delivered, if it doesnt make the humming sound with this cart then it has to be the Super Spike Volleyball cart.

Any ideas what the humming through the speakers would indicate though??

EDIT: i should mention (probably should of said at the start) that i did the old refurb boiling trick on the 72 cart pin connector of the NES and used this Super Spike Volleyball cart to plug and unplug in the 72 pin connector between boils, but both the NES and cart was working fine after i put it all back together...that was about 2 weeks ago so unless some limescale or something has built up on the cart and 72 pin connector over the 2 week (we do have rather hard water in this area) but i clean both parts with a tooth brush and rubbing alcohol afterwards to get all traces of the water off???

[ms06fz]

This is probably gonna sound way too stupid, but is there any chance you've got video out hooked to your monitor's audio in? That would make a humming sound for sure...

[lettuce]

This is probably gonna sound way too stupid, but is there any chance you've got video out hooked to your monitor's audio in? That would make a humming sound for sure...

Nah thats the first thing i check for lol, its actually plugged into the composite phono sockets on the XRGB-Mini and then into my A/V amp so the humming is coming from the A/V amp speakers.

You know the really odd thing is i had the top and shielding off the NES when i noticed the cap smoking and just prior to that i was pushing the cart down further (didnt have the cart tray in place) and the humming changed in pitch when i press the cart down further and then let it spin up slightly again

[lettuce]

Honest to god, I've got nothing. All the standard possibilities (accidental solder bridge, power surges, component failures) seem to be ruled out by your other modded NES. I mean, unless you somehow hit upon a one-in-a-million way of installing the NESRGB board that would let it work for a bit and THEN fry something (which I strongly doubt), I am at a total loss to explain what's happening.

My only other course of action would be to try plugging into a different wall socket - who knows?

Ok it gets weirder, I stumbled upon that if i inserted the spike volleyball cart without pushing it down in the locked position then the NES powered up fine, as soon as i pushed the cart down i lost all power, this is the same for all 3 NES consoles!. So this would suggest it's the cart or my 3 refurb 72 pin connectors but what are the odds of all 3 connectors having the same issues?. I can make a video show the problem if you like, very strange indeed

EDIT: i can confirm it is the Super Spike Vollyball cart thats causing the issue!!, i managed to find my stash of old NES game and tried another cart in my previously modded NES and guess what no humming sound!!

So what on earth has happened to this cart to cause this issue and was it the cause of the damage to the cap, would replacing that cap fix the PSU on this NES? And where can i grab a replacement?

EDIT 2: Appears the large cap was fine cant see any physical damage to it or any burning around the solder points on the pcb of the NES. Looks like the culprit is these resistors or are they standard reflectors?, the 2 on each end look burnt...........



Taking them out and i pulled one of them slightly and it snapped in half!, didnt apply much force at all.....



You can see the burn mark on the pcb, guess that was the bad one then....



Would could have caused this to happen?

What type of resistors are these are they a special type havent seen anything like these type before

[darcagn]

Those are diodes, not resistors. Diodes are often used in rectifier circuits.

[lettuce]

Those are diodes, not resistors. Diodes are often used in rectifier circuits.

Any ideas what rating they are??

[Forks]

With the Analogue Nt announced today as being a bit more than I'm willing to pay for, I'm back to looking at this RGB board again. Is there any word on when they'll be back in stock? I want to be sure I jump on it while I can.