Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

[tjstogy]

By auto detection do you mean deblur on for 240p and off for 480i?

Thanks man!

So we can do this with any of Tims boards and borti4938's firmware?
If that's the case then I wan't to get my system modded now :p
Don't get me wrong, s-video is nice but rgb is nicer

Yeah, any of Tim's boards will work, though the most recent revision offers nice pads instead of having to solder extra wires straight to the CPLD.

I should also note that there was a RetroRGB interview with Tim posted today on Youtube where he mentions that he has a new logic analyzer and will be working on an auto-detection algorithm soon (think he said probably in a couple weeks).

If a couple extra wires and putting in a button combination doesn't bother you then it's not a big deal, and either way if you bought a board now you'd need something to flash it with, whether you go with Borti's firmware or a new one Tim may put out.

[Guspaz]

An update from Tim on the N64RGB de-blur getting an official release from the RetroRGB podcast: his garage flooded and destroyed his logic analyzer, so he just recently replaced it and hasn't yet had time to look into it.

[bobrocks95]

By auto detection do you mean deblur on for 240p and off for 480i?

It's more complicated than that because not all 240p games apply the blurring. Ideally some sort of heuristics would be performed and de-blur would be applied if the game is using the blurring functionality.

[Ikaruga11]

Do you think Tim's v1.3 RGB board come with de-blur and 15-bit Mode already installed? I think I'll just wait rather than trying to flash the software on the board.

[bobrocks95]

De-blur definitely, but I don't think he's aware of Borti's 15-bit color mode options (which I still haven't seen pics of if someone can get one that please!).

If Borti could answer a question for me- is it theoretically possible to detect games doing the dithering with the LSBs? Tim implied on the podcast that he wouldn't want to have people wire up any kind of controller input to the board, so 15-bit mode would have to be auto-detected as well.

Maybe somebody should shoot Tim an email about it?

[borti4938]

I do have some methods in mind how to detect noise implied on the LSBs. But these methods come from signal processing theories so they are not practical for the CPLD. So I cannot say if it possible to implement a heuristic guess on that on the 'small' MaxII. Just want to mention that other than my first guess dither on the LSBs might be not a big deal and is not applied in so many games.

Also I doubt that a heuristic guess of the blur can co-exist with the IGR functionalities. The controller reading part uses around 130 LEs out of 240 LEs. In my heuristic template 148 LEs are used without the IGR. Maybe I will look on the heuristic guess once again (or just wait for Tims solution) but I will not replace the firmware on my 'play' N64 as I love the reset by the controller

To the interview on youtube with retroRGB and viletim:
It might be the case that I haven't published the IGR firmware on the time the interview was recorded.

Do you think Tim's v1.3 RGB board come with de-blur and 15-bit Mode already installed? I think I'll just wait rather than trying to flash the software on the board.

Maybe if you ask Tim on the time you order the board, Tim will pre-flash the board accordingly (with a small amount of additional costs for the additional time he has to spend).

[ZellSF]

If not all games use the blurring, that implies it's a game setting that can potentially be hacked doesn't it? I hope someone finds it so you won't need ultrahdmi/n64rgb.

[FinalBaton]

If not all games use the blurring, that implies it's a game setting that can potentially be hacked doesn't it? I hope someone finds it so you won't need ultrahdmi/n64rgb.

If I understood correctly what the guys at MLIG said on the matter (and assuming they are right on this) : there are 2 kinds of blurring. 1 software based(that doesn't affect all games) and 1 hardware based(that, of course, affects all games). So hacking game code to remove software based blurring won't get rid of all the blurring at all. It will get rid of some, but from what I understand, the hardware-based one is the most severe. So that's the one that will give the most noteable improvment once removed.

Of course removing both is best in theory. But it seems like removing the HW based one is enough to get good quality. plus removing the SW based one seem to be quite the hassle, and for less return
Maybe Borti can confirm or deny this
(I admit that I don't know much about the N64, I don't research it much)

[ZellSF]

If not all games use the blurring, that implies it's a game setting that can potentially be hacked doesn't it? I hope someone finds it so you won't need ultrahdmi/n64rgb.

If I understood correctly what the guys at MLIG said on the matter (and assuming they are right on this) : there are 2 kinds of blurring. 1 software based and 1 hardware based. So hacking game code to remove software based blurring won't get rid of all the blurring at all. It will get rid of some, but from what I understand, the hardware-based one is the most severe. So that's the one that will give the most noteable improvment once removed.

Of course removing both is best in theory. But it seems like removing the HW based one is enough to get good quality. plus removing the SW based one seem to be quite the hassle, and for less return

We're talking about the so called hardware based blurring here (creating new lines with information from adjacent ones), and supposedly it's being done per game so there should be a way to set that flag.

The software based blurring that people are hacking out via IPS patches is just antialiasing.

[FinalBaton]

Ah never mind then. I thought hardware-based bluring was applied to all games via the hardware.

[andykara2003]

I didn't like the look of the antialiasing hack at all - it just looked like a visual downgrade to me. I'm thinking (hoping) this will look cleaner without looking odd and overly pixelated...

[Ikaruga11]

I didn't like the look of the antialiasing hack at all - it just looked like a visual downgrade to me. I'm thinking (hoping) this will look cleaner without looking odd and overly pixelated...

Yeah, the hardware-based blur being removed by the UltraHDMI produces far better results than the software-based blur being removed by the GameShark. You have to realize that N64 games are often designed around the individually implemented software-based blur, and removing that exposes strong dithering and some graphical glitches as seen in StarFox 64 on My Life in Gaming's N64 Anti-Aliasing Hack video.

Whereas the hardware-based blurring is universally projected onto all games without rhyme or reason and has no regard for the integrity of a game's image quality. Removing that blanket blur filter makes the image far cleaner and sharper without damaging the integrity of the image.

[Guspaz]

They're two completely different things that exist simultaneously, and turning off/filtering out one doesn't turn off the other. Anti-aliasing isn't a blur, but a way to (as the name says) avoid aliasing. It essentially tries to simulate having a higher resolution screen. It works great on higher resolution sources (and modern PC/Console gaming tends to use it), but on a 320x240 output it doesn't look all that great.

Here is an extreme example:



The latter image fades to gray in the distance because the image details (the checkered squares) have dropped below one pixel in size.

[andykara2003]

So it seem that Tim's doing his own firmware for the board as well, which will have auto detection. Interesting - apart from the auto detection I guess the de-blur function will look identical? Whether he'll include manual switching via the controller like Borti's, or any other new functionality is another question...

[Guspaz]

No controller: he doesn't want to require the N64RGB get wired into the controller parts of the console. He's putting the emphasis on figuring out the auto-detection, because he thinks having to rely on the manual switch would be very annoying.

[andykara2003]

So from that, it's a choice between having autodetection but having to toggle the de-blur manually with a physical switch or no autodetection but the ability to toggle the de-blur with the controller.

I personally don't like the idea of adding physical switches or making holes in console enclosures and thinking that autodetection was out of the picture, I bought a switch that'll sit nicely behind the left hand grille so it can be toggled by using an something to activate it through the grille. So that's one viable option.

As you say, Tim mentioned that he's doing the autodetection as it'll be a pain to have to adjust it manually all the time, so if you're the sort of person who'd want the de-blur on whenever possible, I guess this is probably the way to go.

I have the feeling that for me, whether I want the effect on or not will depend on the game - some might look better de-blurred and other not. In that case, It might end up being more of a pain having to activate that physical switch all the time and therefore the better route might be Borti's controller button press combo.

Difficult one...

[Ikaruga11]

So Borti's de-blur settings don't save? You have to do the controller input every time you want de-blur on? I'd rather have a controller input with saveable settings than a physical switch.

[tacoguy64]

That's a tough one. I think I rather have a switch if the controller inputs cant save.

[andykara2003]

Borti - care to chime in?

[tjstogy]

I'm confused and have some questions.
1. Some games have both 480i and 240p. Would this auto detection work in the same game?
2. Does this mean that 480i games have none of this blurring applied?
3. In games with "high res mode" assisted by the expansion pak (like road rash 64 and others) is this typically just making the game run in 480i?

[bobrocks95]

Oh man, do people read this thread? It feels like I'm stuck in a loop, lol.

Borti's firmware requires a button input to activate de-blur every time you start a game.
Tim's firmware will automatically de-blur, with your choice of setting up the board to never, to always (when appropriate), or wire up a switch to choose between the two.

480i games have no blurring applied. Presumably autodetection would know if a game switched to 480i output, I don't think Tim would have such a large oversight in his firmware.

And lastly high-res mode typically implies 480i rendering, yes, though I suppose it's possible in some games that it's a misnomer and improves texture resolution or something.

@andykara- if you were to wait on Tim's and then determine that some games don't look as good with de-blur activated (could test with a switch soldered in but not mounted anywhere on the N64), you could always flash Borti's firmware on the board later.

[Ikaruga11]

But will Tim's firmware include the elusive 15-bit mode that allegedly reduces noise in the picture?

[borti4938]

Just a few (probably repeating) words to summarize.

De-Blur:
Removing every second pixel from the RCP output. De-Blur only makes sense if the console outputs a picture which is of 320x240 pixels size, initially, and blurred up to 640x240 pixels.

240p/480i detection:
Detection is done between two frames and applied immediately. De-blur is forced off in 480i.

Heuristic guess in 240p:
A heuristic guess estimates whether a picture was blurred up from 320x240 to 640x240 in the 240p mode or whether the picture has a full size of 640x240, where 'de-blur' removes information from the image (decrease of image quality).
A heuristic guess might be possible in the MaxII with 240LE. However only if a guess is done by comparing neighboring pixels in the same line.
As the name says - it is just a heuristic guess! This means that you are not 100% sure about the detection. A possible side effect could be that de-blur is switched on and off rapidly within the same game depending on what content is shown.
At least you need a switch to force de-blur off or even better two switches / a three way switch to force de-blur on and off.

Switching de-blur on/off using the controller:
A better option than the heuristic guess in my point of view as you don't need additional switches on your console. It is just an extra wire to solder (for a switch you need at least two and have to 'damage' the N64 housing.
Additionally with another extra wire you get a reset-by-controller option

15bit mode:
In the 15bit mode the two LSBs of every (7bit) color channel are removed. This makes only sense if the LSBs are used to introduce some kind of noise to the image.
Other than my first expectations this is not used by many games.
In my view only an option if you can switch it (using the controller or another extra switch)

Saving settings (de-blur and 15bit mode on/off):
Possible. I will look into it
The question is if there are enough LEs left to control the UFM block.

[zeruel85]

Honestly I like to know that the de-blur feature is always on when I power cycle the console, because we don't have a LED (or something else) which tells us that we are in one mode or in another.

[borti4938]

That's true I haven't thought about that in the moment I've written the text.
Maybe it could be an option to also reset to default on the console reset!?

[andykara2003]

Thanks guys. Just bought a USB blaster - never used one before but am going to give it a go...

[mvsfan]

Usb blaster is rather easy to use. connect your wires to the right pads on the n64rgb, plug in the usb cable, Install drivers and quartus software on your pc, and flash.

I might have over simplified it but thats basically IT.

http://www.waveshare.com/coreep4ce10.htm

at the bottom of this page is a diagram of the jtag pinout for the usb blaster.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that - I have version 1.0 of the board & am finding it difficult to solder individual wires to the pads (I have a soldering iron but am not very skilled). I'll get some flat ribbon cable & do it that way.

[holaplaneta]

Is there a US distributor for the N64-RGB boards yet?

Seconding this notion, it would be awesome to save on the shipping costs (AU$31.00 to Mexico)

[viletim]

Is there a US distributor for the N64-RGB boards yet?

Seconding this notion, it would be awesome to save on the shipping costs (AU$31.00 to Mexico)

Some countries have an unreliable postal services. All orders from these countries (Brazil, Canada, Mexico, Russia) must be sent registered. That's why it's expensive to post to Mexico. It would cost even more if sent from the US.

I do offer padded envelopes as an option now. It can fit one N64RGB board and costs only AU$5. Not available to the four countries mentioned above.