Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[Josh128]

Just did some pics showing how my SHVC-CPU-01 Super Famicom looks like on a good CRT using straight RGB. Same games as in Josh's photos.

http://i.imgur.com/EatuVmZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PRNw4bb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uYoi8m7.jpg

In real everything looks pinsharp, the pics don't fully show this as I'm not good at photographing. The brighter spots on the blue background in PoP are caused by the camera.

Looks great, perhaps still a bit soft, but if my SNES would have been even remotely close to that I would not have bothered with the SNES mini. Also, the photos from that website show much less JPEG compression than the Photobucket site Ive been using to post photos-- very nice, Ive already created an account.

[Xan]

First thing I did when I got this console was putting up a 10 IRE screen in the 240p suite, as this immediately revealed the two issues I had with my SNS-CPU-RGB-02, the vertical bar and the interference patterns on darker colors; neither of these issues are visible on the SHVC-CPU-01, on my setup anyway. As for the blur, well, I get a feeling that some of the complaints are from flat screen users. Owning a H4500 plasma myself I know that there is a fair bit of interpolation going on for 240p and 480p signals, that in itself adds quite a bit of blur. Comparing my FFII shot vs. the one Josh did on his F4500 should prove my point here.

@Josh: you don't need an account to upload anything on imgur, but unfortunately it downscales some of my 15 MP pictures based on file size (maybe it actually wouldn't do this if I had an account, I don't know).

[Josh128]

Owning a H4500 plasma myself I know that there is a fair bit of interpolation going on for 240p and 480p signals, that in itself adds quite a bit of blur. Comparing my FFII shot vs. the one Josh did on his F4500 should prove my point here.

Which is why I prefer to feed the sharpest signal possible to it. Im very pleased with the output of the SNES Mini at this point. If you look at the FF2 title screen shot from the SNES mini, you'll see its still quite crisp despite the interpolation of the F4500's 720x240p mode. The 480p mode doesnt add near as much interpolation as the 240p mode, in my opinion. I find it to be quite crisp.

I was playing around with my Wii vs. GC this morning, and lo and behold, I was able to see a difference between the two (yeah, I'll eat my crow). Its more pronounced on certain games than others, and in 4:3 mode vs. 16:9 mode. It seems less pronounced in GC 16:9 vs. Wii 16:9, as evidenced by my FZero comparison photos-- but when you switch both back to 4:3, the GC image is noticably sharper.

With Soul Calibur 2 though, I struggle more to see a difference than I do with FZero GX. With SC2 the Wii and GC are very close, as my photos of that game show. I also found that Zelda:TP is difficult to see a difference in, looks sharp on both. In any case, the Wii still looks great on the set, but I can now see where the GC holds an advantage.

What I know for certain is that my original SNES doesnt play well with my component converter and/or just has a bad RGB out. Im currently using a C-Sync RGB cable with it, but when I first tried it my cable was wired for composite video sync. No difference.

[ApolloBoy]

As for the blur, well, I get a feeling that some of the complaints are from flat screen users

Nope, I'm using a PVM and the blurriness is definitely noticeable. This is also with a shielded cable using composite sync, no converters or anything extra.

[Josh128]

BTW, Ive tried again and failed to convert my 480i/60 DKC lag video to 60fps progressive to be able to upload to Youtube. If anyones interested I can create a bit torrent of the actual 60fps .avi so those who are interested in the set can see the lag video at 60.

Its 2 minutes long and about 450MB in size.

[Xan]

I can tell that the PSX has a noticeably sharper signal than my SFC, but still, without any comparisons the SHVC-CPU-01 definitely appears sharp enough to me (unlike the RGB-02 where I could easily tell it's blurry). I mean, everyone can use their favorite revision for all I care, I just think that the launch model tends to get a bad rap. The take away message in these discussions always seems to be to hunt for a 1CHIP, yet I don't see the vertical bar on them being mentioned that often...

If there is a console with bad output it's the Wii, it can't even resolve a b/w checkerboard in 480p.

Edit: to be fair I just put up the 10 IRE screen again and I can see a tiny hint of that bar when I put my face up against the screen, but it's so faint I'd just disregard it. It's certainly invisible during gameplay, and also with completely black screens, where the bar is most annoying on the other revisions.

[Ed Oscuro]

Josh, ApolloBoy, could you find the serial #s or even better the board revisions? I'm going to post mine in a bit.

[andykara2003]

Josh, would it be possible to upload/Dropbox some really good very high res photos of the Samsung displaying a really good looking Wii/Cube game, say, Mario galaxy? It would be great to be able to blow them up to a really good size to get a better idea of how the image would look on a large display.....

[Josh128]

Josh, ApolloBoy, could you find the serial #s or even better the board revisions? I'm going to post mine in a bit.

The S/N on the bottom of mine is UN10193490. Not sure if or when I could open it up for the board revision.

[Josh128]

Josh, would it be possible to upload/Dropbox some really good very high res photos of the Samsung displaying a really good looking Wii/Cube game, say, Mario galaxy? It would be great to be able to blow them up to a really good size to get a better idea of how the image would look on a large display.....

All I have is a 3MP camera-- perhaps I can re-up some of my photos to that new hosting site referred to above, but the photos probably still wont be what you are looking for.

Heres some extreme close ups:






http://i.imgur.com/bQVxzj8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dYoxXcu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7ernsNo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FdElSYB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2KlH1Gh.jpg

[22point8]

I just discovered that if you set [Dyamic Contrast] to [Low] it changes the Gamma curve to mimic a CRT.

The aim of this is to replicate the characteristics of a Sony BVM CRT for the purposes of retro gaming. Light output of either 80 or 100 candela. Average [Gamma] of [2.2].

Picture Mode: Standard (Game mode)
Cell Light: 20 (19 for 80 candela)
Contrast 87 (77 for 80 candela)
Brightness: 44 (no dithering on completely black screen)
Sharpness: 20 (Component), or 0 (RGB Scart (EU))
Colour: 43
Tint: 50/50

Dynamic Contrast: Low
Black Tone: Off
Flesh Tone: -1
Colour Space: Custom
R: 49/9/6
G: 17/50/0
B: 0/0/50
Y: 50/50/0
C: 10/50/49
M:50/0/50
White Balance: 25/24/26/21/25/25
Gamma: -1 (For an average gamma of 2.2)

Colour Tone: Warm 2
Digital Clean View: Off
MPEG Noise Reduction: Off
Film Mode: Off
Black Optimiser: Dark Room (to limit light output, but still improve MLL)

PVM 2044QM Gamma average 2.2


PVM 1454QM Gamma average 2.35


Sony KV-21LS30U Gamma average 2.4


F4900 Gamma (without dynamic contrast) average 2.2


F4900 Gamma (CRT Emulation) average 2.2


Also updated guide to reflect this and data from all the dynamic contrast and black tone settings http://1drv.ms/1AYlhNr.

[ApolloBoy]

Josh, ApolloBoy, could you find the serial #s or even better the board revisions? I'm going to post mine in a bit.

My Super Fami has an SHVC-CPU-01 board and the SN is S15600248.

[andykara2003]

Josh, would it be possible to upload/Dropbox some really good very high res photos of the Samsung displaying a really good looking Wii/Cube game, say, Mario galaxy? It would be great to be able to blow them up to a really good size to get a better idea of how the image would look on a large display.....

All I have is a 3MP camera-- perhaps I can re-up some of my photos to that new hosting site referred to above, but the photos probably still wont be what you are looking for.

Heres some extreme close ups:

http://i.imgur.com/bQVxzj8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dYoxXcu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7ernsNo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FdElSYB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2KlH1Gh.jpg

Thanks very much Josh The second photo is exactly what I was looking for - and really demonstrates the principle of why the TV is so good for 480p.

EDIT: I just blew them up a little bigger on my monitor - not so sure now. I guess these things have to be seen in person to make a jusgement. Even high res photos are not really that reliable in conveying the qualities of a display I think.

[Xan]

I think color at default 50 outside of movie picture mode is deliberately set to cause a slight oversaturation, I don't really mind that for games so far. For the >235 clipping in RGB mode, I've tested this on my PC monitor and the result was identical, could be an issue with the PS3 or the suite itself (I don't have a dedicated BD player and the disc doesn't seem to work on my PC).

[Josh128]

Thanks very much Josh The second photo is exactly what I was looking for - and really demonstrates the principle of why the TV is so good for 480p.

EDIT: I just blew them up a little bigger on my monitor - not so sure now. I guess these things have to be seen in person to make a jusgement. Even high res photos are not really that reliable in conveying the qualities of a display I think.

Actually, I feel the second photo does indeed demonstrate part of what makes 480p look good on the set.

As for blowing all the pictures up-- the only thing I can tell you, since I have the set, is that in person, the set looks as good as the pictures do before you zoom in! And while the pictures are not perfect, especially zoomed in close, I find they came out pretty good and do a good job of showing the vibrant color and contrast of the set.

[Kyle]

Sorry to be that guy, but I skimmed the thread and didn't see a direct link aside from Fudoh's eBay. Is this the one I'm after? They aren't in stock locally but they're claiming they'll ship it here freely.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-51- ... Id=8240051

[andykara2003]

Thanks very much Josh The second photo is exactly what I was looking for - and really demonstrates the principle of why the TV is so good for 480p.

EDIT: I just blew them up a little bigger on my monitor - not so sure now. I guess these things have to be seen in person to make a jusgement. Even high res photos are not really that reliable in conveying the qualities of a display I think.

Actually, I feel the second photo does indeed demonstrate part of what makes 480p look good on the set.

As for blowing all the pictures up-- the only thing I can tell you, since I have the set, is that in person, the set looks as good as the pictures do before you zoom in! And while the pictures are not perfect, especially zoomed in close, I find they came out pretty good and do a good job of showing the vibrant color and contrast of the set.

Nice one - I can see how the 'coarse' lower nature of the display seems to emulate the shadow mask of a 31khz CRT. Am I right in saying that the 43" would be noticeably sharper than the 51" with 480p stuff?

[Ed Oscuro]

I couldn't guess at the board revisions on those SNESes but they certainly are much earlier than mine, which is UN298634420 and RGB-02 (looking underneath the metal shield at bottom right on the PCB, I can see B-02, and the other components are in the right places). So SNS-CPU-RGB-02. I haven't carefully checked for banding but I probably would have noticed it by now.

Edit: Found something interesting. here is a random "just discovered all SNESes aren't the same" thread but it has some interesting nuggets of information courtesy of posters izarate and savageone.

My SNES seems to be identical in layout to savageone's SNS-CPU-RGB-02. Mine also has the S-RGB-A BA6596F chip on it. (Uh, I'll try not to open you randomly again, SNES!) Didn't check the date code. This seems to be an excellent revision of SNES. More importantly, the encoder seems to be a deciding factor here; is not big surprise™.

[Josh128]

Sorry to be that guy, but I skimmed the thread and didn't see a direct link aside from Fudoh's eBay. Is this the one I'm after? They aren't in stock locally but they're claiming they'll ship it here freely.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-51- ... Id=8240051

Thats the one I have (actually 2 of them)!

[Xan]

I couldn't guess at the board revisions on those SNESes but they certainly are much earlier than mine, which is UN298634420 and RGB-02 (looking underneath the metal shield at bottom right on the PCB, I can see B-02, and the other components are in the right places). So SNS-CPU-RGB-02. I haven't carefully checked for banding but I probably would have noticed it by now.

Edit: Found something interesting. here is a random "just discovered all SNESes aren't the same" thread but it has some interesting nuggets of information courtesy of posters izarate and savageone.

My SNES seems to be identical in layout to savageone's SNS-CPU-RGB-02. Mine also has the S-RGB-A BA6596F chip on it. (Uh, I'll try not to open you randomly again, SNES!) Didn't check the date code. This seems to be an excellent revision of SNES. More importantly, the encoder seems to be a deciding factor here; is not big surprise™.

Is there some hidden irony in that post which I fail to spot?

[Josh128]

Thanks very much Josh The second photo is exactly what I was looking for - and really demonstrates the principle of why the TV is so good for 480p.

EDIT: I just blew them up a little bigger on my monitor - not so sure now. I guess these things have to be seen in person to make a jusgement. Even high res photos are not really that reliable in conveying the qualities of a display I think.

Actually, I feel the second photo does indeed demonstrate part of what makes 480p look good on the set.

As for blowing all the pictures up-- the only thing I can tell you, since I have the set, is that in person, the set looks as good as the pictures do before you zoom in! And while the pictures are not perfect, especially zoomed in close, I find they came out pretty good and do a good job of showing the vibrant color and contrast of the set.

Nice one - I can see how the 'coarse' lower nature of the display seems to emulate the shadow mask of a 31khz CRT. Am I right in saying that the 43" would be noticeably sharper than the 51" with 480p stuff?

I cant say for sure as I have seen the 43" in store, but I havent demoed it with the 480p signal. Fudoh has one, perhaps when he shows up he will have some better info on that particular set.

I have to tell you though, the 51" looks fantastic, I wouldnt trade mine for anything....

[andykara2003]

Thanks, I'll take you're advice on that & so I'm tempted by the 51". They're both getting very hard to find here in the UK, though. The only ones I'm seeing are new 'non-fault' returns, reboxed and sold on eBay. The prices aren't too bad but I don't fancy buying a returned set. Maybe Germany is the best bet. I'll ask Fudoh which eBay seller e used. If anyone else knows of a good seller in Europe I'd love to hear from them..

[kel]

Thanks, I'll take you're advice on that & so I'm tempted by the 51". They're both getting very hard to find here in the UK, though. The only ones I'm seeing are new 'non-fault' returns, reboxed and sold on eBay. The prices aren't too bad but I don't fancy buying a returned set. Maybe Germany is the best bet. I'll ask Fudoh which eBay seller e used. If anyone else knows of a good seller in Europe I'd love to hear from them..

http://www.tesco.com/direct/samsung-pe4 ... eLevel=sku

They only have the 43" in stock at the moment, don't know if they will ever get any more 51" back in stock but it is listed on the site.

I got the 43", haven't had much time to play about with it but I'm impressed with it up to now.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that, I didn't see that one I'm going to hold out for the 51 now, though, I think...

[Ed Oscuro]

I've had another look at the 51F4500 in a store. Side by side with a FHD panel it's clear there is a severe downsampling of detail, but I think it handles it very well.

The only thing that really stands out as a negative is the screen door look. Even from a fair distance, pure white looks like a screen door a bit more than I'd like. It's certainly not the end of the world though. I actually am rather interested in its unique look. Would I consider it a "reference" look? Well, maybe not. But (I hope I'm not repeating myself) I wonder if its lower resolution doesn't mean that 480p gets scaled more cleanly than 1080p.

I couldn't guess at the board revisions on those SNESes but they certainly are much earlier than mine, which is UN298634420 and RGB-02 (looking underneath the metal shield at bottom right on the PCB, I can see B-02, and the other components are in the right places). So SNS-CPU-RGB-02. I haven't carefully checked for banding but I probably would have noticed it by now.

Edit: Found something interesting. here is a random "just discovered all SNESes aren't the same" thread but it has some interesting nuggets of information courtesy of posters izarate and savageone.

My SNES seems to be identical in layout to savageone's SNS-CPU-RGB-02. Mine also has the S-RGB-A BA6596F chip on it. (Uh, I'll try not to open you randomly again, SNES!) Didn't check the date code. This seems to be an excellent revision of SNES. More importantly, the encoder seems to be a deciding factor here; is not big surprise™.

Is there some hidden irony in that post which I fail to spot?

If there was sarcasm I'd share that with you now. If there is something ironic about the post, you'll have to tell me!

[Josh128]

I've had another look at the 51F4500 in a store. Side by side with a FHD panel it's clear there is a severe downsampling of detail, but I think it handles it very well.

The only thing that really stands out as a negative is the screen door look. Even from a fair distance, pure white looks like a screen door a bit more than I'd like. It's certainly not the end of the world though. I actually am rather interested in its unique look. Would I consider it a "reference" look? Well, maybe not. But (I hope I'm not repeating myself) I wonder if its lower resolution doesn't mean that 480p gets scaled more cleanly than 1080p.

Its hard to explain, but the panel looks completely different, and more natural to me, with game sources, than the 1080p one. This photo below helps demonstrate it a bit-- note "scanlines" in the image.

http://i.imgur.com/bQVxzj8.jpg

[Jack Burton]

I've had another look at the 51F4500 in a store. Side by side with a FHD panel it's clear there is a severe downsampling of detail, but I think it handles it very well.

The only thing that really stands out as a negative is the screen door look. Even from a fair distance, pure white looks like a screen door a bit more than I'd like. It's certainly not the end of the world though. I actually am rather interested in its unique look. Would I consider it a "reference" look? Well, maybe not. But (I hope I'm not repeating myself) I wonder if its lower resolution doesn't mean that 480p gets scaled more cleanly than 1080p.

I checked out the same 51" model at a local store yeaterday and have the same feelings. The screen door effect is just too much. I'd have to get the 1080p version.......then lose the awesome 240 and 480 benefits. Oh well. Guess I'll keep on looking since I will be watching shows on the tv as well.

[Konsolkongen]

Its hard to explain, but the panel looks completely different, and more natural to me, with game sources, than the 1080p one. This photo below helps demonstrate it a bit-- note "scanlines" in the image.

http://i.imgur.com/bQVxzj8.jpg

The only thing I can see from your pictures, is that the sharpness is turned up much too high for my taste. Since others have said that this TV can look pretty decent, I assume that the camera just does a poor job of taking pictures of a screen. If I had to judge from your pictures alone, I'd say that I've seen many FullHD sets that handles the Wii much better than this, not to mention external scalers

The scanlined look is interesting, although I'm not sure I would like it for most content.

[andykara2003]

That's it, cheers Konsolkongen I couldn't quite put my finger on that earlier but the sharpness is too high I think.

What I'm wondering in general is this:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the picture that the 'screendoor' effect from this screen is a big part of why this looks like a CRT. i.e. the patern of the comparatively large plasma cells in the coarse grid looks similar(ish) to the mask of a 31Khz display like the NEC XM29, as Fudoh mentioned earlier.

I'm wondering how close you can sit to the TV before this 'CRT' look breaks down, the screendoor effect becomes distracting & it starts looking generally rough? For a 51" TV at such a low resolution, would you need to sit, say, at least 8 feet away to get a smooth image?

[Jack Burton]

That's it, cheers Konsolkongen I couldn't quite put my finger on that earlier but the sharpness is too high I think.

What I'm wondering in general is this:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the picture that the 'screendoor' effect from this screen is a big part of why this looks like a CRT. i.e. the patern of the comparatively large plasma cells in the coarse grid looks similar(ish) to the mask of a 31Khz display like the NEC XM29, as Fudoh mentioned earlier.

I'm wondering how close you can sit to the TV before this 'CRT' look breaks down, the screendoor effect becomes distracting & it starts looking generally rough? For a 51" TV at such a low resolution, would you need to sit, say, at least 8 feet away to get a smooth image?

I was about 9 feet away from it in a store and the effect was still quite visible with a video signal going into it. Plus, when objects would smoothly scroll towards and away from the screen (or just get smaller or larger) on other screens (higher resolution), it was much more jerky on this one because of the much smaller amount of pixels.