The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Naut]

I've been trying to learn Touhou UFO. And, well, I have a few issues with MoF (I 1cc'd this on Lunatic, for reference) and the Touhou games since then. ZUN took a certain direction in using power for bombs, or incredibly gimping the player so it's almost impossible to maintain full power throughout a full run in SA/UFO, which I hate. It's something that puts me off playing R-Type and older shmups entirely--the feeling of being completely underpowered. This isn't even an issue that ZUN had to begin with; EoSD, PCB and IN are perfectly fine games. It's more or less the act of using power for bombing, or being unable to recover which seriously takes the fun out of the game.

UFO uses the same bomb/power system as PCB/IN/EoSD, where bombing does not take away power. As a comparison between SA and UFO and the primary shot types used in each (Reimu A, the forward focused one), you lose about ~47.5% of your damage per second going from max to min power in SA, where in UFO you only lose about ~21%. In MoF you also get nerfed to shit when bombing, but MoF also hands you enough power to bomb through every single attack in the game --including all the easy ones-- and still 1cc it (not an exaggeration, it's been done).

[Barrakketh]

Touhou fucks people up if they play cave games. Something about the graphical style or bullet design just makes people retarded. I'm guilty as charged with this, since playing lots of other shmups i can't 1cc those games anymore really.

It's probably the fact that Touhou's bullets have substantial hitboxes, where as if you've read some of the posts about Cave's game mechanics most bullets supposedly have one pixel hitboxes.

In MoF you also get nerfed to shit when bombing, but MoF also hands you enough power to bomb through every single attack in the game --including all the easy ones-- and still 1cc it (not an exaggeration, it's been done).

I think that might have been one of Drake's replays, and I'll consider recording that and tossing it on Youtube for the lulz.

Of course, I think Baity did one for UFO Lunatic...that might be more interesting.

[Elixir]

I've been trying to learn Touhou UFO. And, well, I have a few issues with MoF (I 1cc'd this on Lunatic, for reference) and the Touhou games since then. ZUN took a certain direction in using power for bombs, or incredibly gimping the player so it's almost impossible to maintain full power throughout a full run in SA/UFO, which I hate. It's something that puts me off playing R-Type and older shmups entirely--the feeling of being completely underpowered. This isn't even an issue that ZUN had to begin with; EoSD, PCB and IN are perfectly fine games. It's more or less the act of using power for bombing, or being unable to recover which seriously takes the fun out of the game.

UFO uses the same bomb/power system as PCB/IN/EoSD, where bombing does not take away power. As a comparison between SA and UFO and the primary shot types used in each (Reimu A, the forward focused one), you lose about ~47.5% of your damage per second going from max to min power in SA, where in UFO you only lose about ~21%. In MoF you also get nerfed to shit when bombing, but MoF also hands you enough power to bomb through every single attack in the game --including all the easy ones-- and still 1cc it (not an exaggeration, it's been done).

It might not, but bombing is still required for recovery/sorting out UFOs. It breaks the flow of the game by any detrimental aspects of dying being in place. 21% might not seem like much, but when EoSD has set power regardless of death, all stages after obtaining max power feel equal. For older games like Tatsujin Ou, I don't actually mind. It rewards players for survival by making latter stages easier with full power: in UFO, it rewards players for bombing through early patterns to maintain max power. Bombing before Stage 3 in Tatsujin Ou is, of course, not going to reward you for maintaining power.

I actually 1cc'd MoF Lunatic without cheesing patterns with bombing, and by using Reimu B. Again, I would kill for a game like MoF with PCB's system.

Every time I die just even once in UFO I restart. There's just something fundamentally wrong with recent Touhou games, although I can't really describe it.

[Naut]

I've been trying to learn Touhou UFO. And, well, I have a few issues with MoF (I 1cc'd this on Lunatic, for reference) and the Touhou games since then. ZUN took a certain direction in using power for bombs, or incredibly gimping the player so it's almost impossible to maintain full power throughout a full run in SA/UFO, which I hate. It's something that puts me off playing R-Type and older shmups entirely--the feeling of being completely underpowered. This isn't even an issue that ZUN had to begin with; EoSD, PCB and IN are perfectly fine games. It's more or less the act of using power for bombing, or being unable to recover which seriously takes the fun out of the game.

UFO uses the same bomb/power system as PCB/IN/EoSD, where bombing does not take away power. As a comparison between SA and UFO and the primary shot types used in each (Reimu A, the forward focused one), you lose about ~47.5% of your damage per second going from max to min power in SA, where in UFO you only lose about ~21%. In MoF you also get nerfed to shit when bombing, but MoF also hands you enough power to bomb through every single attack in the game --including all the easy ones-- and still 1cc it (not an exaggeration, it's been done).

It might not, but bombing is still required for recovery/sorting out UFOs. It breaks the flow of the game by any detrimental aspects of dying being in place. 21% might not seem like much, but when EoSD has set power regardless of death, all stages after obtaining max power feel equal. For older games like Tatsujin Ou, I don't actually mind. It rewards players for survival by making latter stages easier with full power: in UFO, it rewards players for bombing through early patterns to maintain max power. Bombing before Stage 3 in Tatsujin Ou is, of course, not going to reward you for maintaining power.

I actually 1cc'd MoF Lunatic without cheesing patterns with bombing, and by using Reimu B. Again, I would kill for a game like MoF with PCB's system.

Every time I die just even once in UFO I restart. There's just something fundamentally wrong with recent Touhou games, although I can't really describe it.

So, you should not be penalized for dying ever? The difference is a 7% dps reduction when dying in UFO. That's less than a second added to most spell cards. I see this complaint a lot actually, but I think it's just a mentality thing. Things not dying on the exact frame that people are used to gives the impression of being severely underpowered, or something. Interesting fact, Reimu A is just as strong at 1.00 power as Reimu B is at 4.00 power, so you're still always killing everything faster than the homing shot type. This game actually has the most balanced shot types in the whole series.

Also, UFO happens to give out the most lives in the whole series, about 14 extra. Five more than any of the other Touhou games. This is also six more than the maximum amount of lives you can carry at any one time. Stop restarting because of one silly death.

In regards to bombing, it's hardly ever necessary for recovery, there are never enough enemies on the screen to warrant it. You can always just kill them all in the five second post-death invincibility, with the exception of boss attacks. UFO routes of course become easier when you've memorized your path, but usually spawning a rainbow UFO is good enough to get back on track with your route. Bombing probably makes the task easier though, much like in pretty much every game ever.

Though I guess if you don't like it then you just don't like it, but I wanted to get some misconceptions out of the way in any case.

[Shatterhand]

Save states, killin' off all the fun of competition.

While I don't think it takes the fun of competition, I find it funny how it makes a HUGE difference to me.

I have never used savestates to practice, except on the STGTs I've played. And I always found funny how I managed to play those games a lot better than I would ever expect..... but I always felt I was cheating. I did it because I was playing for the team, and I knew everyone else also was doing it. If its not for competition, if I am playing for my own sake, it just feels like cheating and I don't like doing it.

There was one year when we played Strikers 1945 II, a game that I deeply love, but never managed to 1cc (Reached 1-8 many many times, but never managed to beat it). I just refused to practice using save-states because I felt I would be cheating in a long-time relationship. It's ok to save state-practice in Thunder Dragon 2 because I don't care about that game (And I would never beat that last boss without doing those patterns eons of time before going for the real thing in a week), but Strikers II? No way, I want to do it the "proper way" or never do it at all.

My score sucked at that week, but I kept faithful to my game

[BPzeBanshee]

Touhou fucks people up if they play cave games. Something about the graphical style or bullet design just makes people retarded. I'm guilty as charged with this, since playing lots of other shmups i can't 1cc those games anymore really.

It's probably the fact that Touhou's bullets have substantial hitboxes, where as if you've read some of the posts about Cave's game mechanics most bullets supposedly have one pixel hitboxes.

I don't suppose you'd happen to know about the hitbox size of the bullets in the Raiden games by any chance? I always presumed they were the size of the sprite but I swear sometimes on rare occasions I've clipped them implying they are slightly smaller than they appear (the ship's sprite I'm confident is the size of its original sprite prior to the 'upgrade' bit, or a precise hitbox in the case of Raiden Fighters).

[Elixir]

Though I guess if you don't like it then you just don't like it, but I wanted to get some misconceptions out of the way in any case.

My main issue with UFO is in having to be at x location at x time in order to collect x UFO etc. Example: first UFOs, the third dropping red first, so typically red/red/red would be the way to go. Mess that up and I restart. I don't like having to restart against a situation where I haven't done anything wrong survival-wise nor score-wise. Also, crashing into bullets trying to collect x coloured UFO before it changes is annoying as all fuck--this completely breaks the flow of the game.

It's elements like this which just put me off playing entirely. None of this was present in the previous games, although I like how UFO is less punishing for dying.

Since Ten Desires is completely easy in comparison, I don't really know where ZUN is going with this series.

[Illyrian]

Playing any Touhou game after Subterranean Animism:

Oh shit cracka you just went full baka

N'ah mean...?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

So I spent lots of time to try to figure out the TLB patterns for Gundeadligne using Demonic Challenge. Because with the bosses/midbosses of both this and Gundemonium Recollection, it's accurate to how the fights are at high rank.


Yeah, not for this boss though. Complete waste of time trying to figure them out on Mission mode. Now I have to actually play the stage in practice mode a lot just to have a chance of figuring out the actual patterns. I'm just glad I didn't get to it in a full run just to find that out.


Although I cleared the fight in practice earlier, I still have no idea how to handle the opener which is completely horrible if you're hit by it. Guess I'll have to find a way to TAS it so I can actually figure out patterns that I can do at full speed.

[ShmupSamurai]

Stage 2 of Crimson Clover....

With much practice, I've finally broken my annoying habbit of holding back BREAK's for bosses only, and as such, am able to 1CC the first stage(no 'No-Miss' clears yet)...

However, once I get about a minute and half into Stage 2-I get splated by that weird pile up of aircraft on the right side of the screen which let loose a virtual blizzard of bullets...I don't even have THAT much of a problem with the mini-boss. It's only THAT ONE SECTION near the start that smothers me in bullets EACH playthrough.

[Marc]

FUCK! When you smash your previous best on DDP:R first stage and earn your first extra seconds (literally) into round two, no-miss, no-bomb round two and destroy your best on that, thenk choke, loose three bombs in a minute on stage 3, then your FUCKING SHITTY wireless Virgin internet router disconnects from XBL and the game kicks you out. FUCK FUCK FUCK.

[Illyrian]

Extra seconds?

You mean extend right?

[Trevor spencer]

then your FUCKING SHITTY wireless Virgin internet router disconnects from XBL and the game kicks you out. .

This is happening to me all the time , im getting rid of virgin soon as its ruined so many of my score runs

[BobbyNewmarkiii]

The X button going unresponsive on my hori EX2. Don't look easy to replace either

[Barrakketh]

The X button going unresponsive on my hori EX2. Don't look easy to replace either

Buttons are really easy to replace.

[Deca]

No extends in Raiden Fighters

[dunpeal2064]

No extends in Raiden Fighters

I would always think, "ok, at 20mil I bet I get an extend" but nope.

Then I'd think, "ok, they must really want you to work for it, maybe its at somethin like 50mil"

nope

[BobbyNewmarkiii]

The X button going unresponsive on my hori EX2. Don't look easy to replace either

Buttons are really easy to replace.

On most sticks, yes. Buttons are soldered direct to the pcb for the ex2 though.

Oh yeah, and don't let me forget to thank you for such a helpful, insightful, and downright worthwhile contribution to the discussion.

[RNGmaster]

Dragon Blaze is starting to stutter and lag like mad. It's really throwing me off. All of a sudden, the one game I'm good at has become unplayable and I don't see any way to fix it...

If it helps I can specify what's going on. I have the frame data on, and it only dips below 100% at a few points (though it really shouldn't at all) but sometimes there's this weird stuttering and associated input lag. I can't play like this, and I'm convinced my mind isn't playing tricks on me.

We just got a new video card but I'm not sure how that could be related.

[Barrakketh]

The X button going unresponsive on my hori EX2. Don't look easy to replace either

Buttons are really easy to replace.

On most sticks, yes. Buttons are soldered direct to the pcb for the ex2 though.

The wires are soldered to the PCB on practically all of the Hori sticks I've seen the innards of, but I assumed that the EX2 used buttons that had standard terminals and used quick-disconnects. Turns out it doesn't, my bad.

You'd figure that the cost of making a separate PCB and ribbon cable would be more expensive than some common wire and quick-disconnects >_> Even the cheap MadCatz sticks don't do that.

Oh yeah, and don't let me forget to thank you for such a helpful, insightful, and downright worthwhile contribution to the discussion.

You're welcome.

[BPzeBanshee]

Dragon Blaze is starting to stutter and lag like mad. It's really throwing me off. All of a sudden, the one game I'm good at has become unplayable and I don't see any way to fix it...

If it helps I can specify what's going on. I have the frame data on, and it only dips below 100% at a few points (though it really shouldn't at all) but sometimes there's this weird stuttering and associated input lag. I can't play like this, and I'm convinced my mind isn't playing tricks on me.

We just got a new video card but I'm not sure how that could be related.

Check your CPU temperature if possible to compare idle temp against playing Dragon Blaze in MAME, and update your CPU and graphics card drivers too. I had something similar with the Raiden Fighters games which I was able to fix by getting the CPU drivers for my machine. Hope that helps.

Also, if you're rotating Windows itself for TATE, don't. I've found that everything is more likely to run like it's on a horrid frameskip when it does that.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

GundeadliGne Demonic Challenge replay desyncs are terrible.

Outside of that, I'm trying to finish the mode, and I am getting tired of dying to Elysium on the El Dorada/Elysium fight right when I'm about to kill the damn thing. Also, Babelforge, how?

I'm stuck at 44/46 at the moment, and although El Dorada/Elysium is doable for me, I don't have any idea how to handle Babelforge. The strategy I tried for it with Eryth just timed the thing out and not even close to winning.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I fucking swear that all these games are impossible. You get better through practice up to a point and then you slowly get worse. Happens every time on every game.

Current target of my rage is triggerheart-fucking-excelica!

Consistency decreasing ..... check
Score decreasing..... check
Progress decreasing ... check

Yep, business as usual.

[ratikal]

You must embrace the pain and burn it as fuel for your journey. Only then, you will progress.

[DrTrouserPlank]

You must embrace the pain and burn it as fuel for your journey. Only then, you will progress.

Dunno about burning it but at the moment I'm munching down on piles of bullshit.

[Aliquantic]

Coprophilia is a bit too far don't you think? Most of us would think so anyway

[DrTrouserPlank]

Coprophilia is a bit too far don't you think? Most of us would think so anyway

Everyone has different tastes

[Annoyboy]

Well, Futari 1.5 and its random speed trolling has significantly pissed me off to the point where I want to fling the disc out of the window for enough today, so it's time to stop playing. Thank God for Black Label.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Well, Futari 1.5 and its random speed trolling has significantly pissed me off to the point where I want to fling the disc out of the window for enough today, so it's time to stop playing. Thank God for Black Label.

Never had a problem with it's iffy slowdown personally. Whilst I agree that the release from slowdown isn't how you'd expect it to be and is more sudden than one would like, I still find it predictable. You kind of know that it's going to release you early...

Nonetheless it's still fuckin' impossible.

I've recently taken up a new hobby of demolishing brick walls by smashing my head against them. Whilst some have suggested that this is not an optimal method I've found it to be more relaxing than playing Futari or any of CAVE's other piss-you-off simulators. I'm also finding that abrasions to my forehead are down 36%.

[JoJo]

FUCK! When you smash your previous best on DDP:R first stage and earn your first extra seconds (literally) into round two, no-miss, no-bomb round two and destroy your best on that, thenk choke, loose three bombs in a minute on stage 3, then your FUCKING SHITTY wireless Virgin internet router disconnects from XBL and the game kicks you out. FUCK FUCK FUCK.

Was reading this and JUST KNEW this was coming.

Same here.