DVDO EDGE - How it performs

[fagin]

I will try this on the XRGB-2+ tonight.

[BuckoA51]

So this'll nullify the shaky V-Sync of the XRGB?

I don't know about that, I don't have a lot of trouble with it, I just know it fixed the SMS converter problem and the picture was flawless. I still get some very minor picture noise on some other systems but only generally noticeable with my nose pressed against the screen or with the brightness turned up too high.

Did you try this with other systems or with the Gefen in place of the Edge?

I tried Genesis, Amiga CD32, PC Engine, Jaguar, Saturn, N64 and PS2 (Component) quality was either the same or slightly better than with RGBHV, PC Engine still didn't work though it did give a picture at the default settings, which is an improvement on how things were before, still blanks after a while though.

I did not try the Gefen, I don't know if the Gefen will even accept RGBC, if nobody else can try it I'll dig it out some point soon and try.

[fagin]

Using XRGB-2+ --> 580xi --> EDGE does enhance the image quality (over XRGB-2+ --> EDGE), but does not remove the XRGB "wobble" completely. Although it is really is all but removed now with the 580xi. From normal viewing distances you sure won't see anything.

Nice suggestion BuckoA51!

[BuckoA51]

I honestly didn't notice that much difference quality wise, but the fact it has fixed it so I can play my SMS games is fantastic

[fagin]

I honestly didn't notice that much difference quality wise, but the fact it has fixed it so I can play my SMS games is fantastic

Apologies, I meant that as a reference to reduced wobble which increases overall quality.

[BuckoA51]

We just need someone to try MVS/AES in this configuration now too to see if that gets fixed.

[SGGG2]

The Gefen will only accept RGBHV according to the data sheet.

[BuckoA51]

Ah well, scratch that idea then, I might try it anyway next time I unearth it for any reason

[BuckoA51]

Round 2 of testing results for the SMS converter with XRGB3/Extron RGB 580xi (comp sync) and DVDO Edge.

Note that ALL my 3 SMS games are PAL versions. Since I'm forcing PAL software to run at NTSC timings in these tests then obviously that often causes problems with things, though I'm not actually sure if there's a difference between US and European SMS games? Perhaps someone can clarify this for me.

Sonic Chaos - This works perfecty in 50hz or 60hz. No problems whatsoever, actually plays nicer at 50hz, music's too fast at 60.

Dragon Crystal - This was perfect in 50hz. If you run this in 60hz, you get a warping effect at the top of the screen. If you then go in and set the NTSC AFC manually to 5, the warping effect is removed. However, the picture then becomes unstable and blanks every minute or so. The warping effect isn't that bad however, certainly tolerable, or just run it in 50hz since it doesn't exactly make a lot of difference for this game.

Lucky Dime Caper - Same as Dragon Crystal, which is kinda a shame since this game plays better at 60hz. This is such a great looking game, great cartoony sprites and pretty playable too. Looks Soooooooooooo much nicer through XRGB3 rather than direct to the Edge.

So unless someone comes up with a hardware mod to fix the strange sync signal the SMS converter outputs I think this is as good as it is going to get, I'm happy anyway, I'm off to hunt for a copy of Alex Kidd in Miracle World

[Hamburglar]

This thread is very fascinating, though I admit very confusing.

I have had a DVDO Edge for years now and I love it. It really makes low-res stuff look way better (I am a hardcore classic gamer but don't have the room for a CRT).

Anyway, a lot of the stuff in this thread confuses me. I have my Genesis (csync modded to remove jailbars), SNES, and NES (I used a Playchoice 10 PPU) using RGB via scart cables. The scart cables go to a transcoder. The transcoder goes to the component inputs on the DVDO Edge, and sync goes to the sync input on the back of my DVDO Edge.

Here's where I get confused. Firstly, how are you guys getting any picture at all on the latest DVDO Edge firmware? I had to revert back to 1.4 because anything after it produced a crazy picture on anything less than 480. Even SNES hooked up via s-video did this. It did not need to be 240p (unless SNES s-video does 240p which I don't think it does; I assume that has to be over RGB because the p stands for progressive).

Anyway, there's more I am confused with. I am reading some people saying RGBHV looks better than RGBs. Is RGBs just another way of saying RGB using composite sync or csync? And RGBHV I assume stands for a different method of syncing the picture? I am somewhat familiar with RGBHV as it was the way I got my Dreamcast VGA out to work with the Edge (using a VGA to 5 BNC port adapter). How do you get RGBHV from a scart cable, anyway? All my scart cables have one line for sync, not two.

The only reason one would need an HDFury3 is if you wanted to use a scanline generator in your DVDO Edge set up, is this correct?

Finally, I do get a bit of haloing with my SNES/Genesis/NES. It's not terrible, but if there's any way to rid of it, I'd appreciate some knowledge.

Thanks and sorry if I'm asking such newbish questions!

[BuckoA51]

More interesting developments!

Xbox 1->Talismoon VGA cable and VGA Bios->DVDO Edge (RGBHV) - Unstable/keeps losing picture
Xbox 1->Talismoon VGA cable and VGA Bios->Extron RGB 580xi with DDSP and Comp Sync ON->DVDO Edge (RGBC) - Perfectly stable!

I would switch to VGA for my Xbox 1 but I'm not a fan unfortunately, if I had to call it I'd say the VGA picture was a little sharper, however, during gameplay, it's hard to describe but, there will be strips of the screen that are a slightly darker colour. Like part of the sky will change to be darker than it should be. It is almost certainly NOT something the Edge is doing since it only happens when the game is moving rapidly. I don't know how to explain it better, actually I thought at first it was something the game was doing with the lighting but it doesn't happen when using component. So it's back to component again for the Xbox 1, would have been less cable clutter to use the VGA but oh well.

Here's a couple of comparison shots I took, I wouldn't really say they were dramatically different anyway, first VGA:-



and then component:-



Edit - Just to be clear I'm talking about feeding the output of the Extron into the RGBHV inputs on the Edge, but disconnecting the vertical sync so that the picture is recognised as RGBC.

[BuckoA51]

Anyway, a lot of the stuff in this thread confuses me. I have my Genesis (csync modded to remove jailbars), SNES, and NES (I used a Playchoice 10 PPU) using RGB via scart cables. The scart cables go to a transcoder. The transcoder goes to the component inputs on the DVDO Edge, and sync goes to the sync input on the back of my DVDO Edge.

The transcoding is unnecessary, the component inputs on the Edge accept RGB too, that's what the white sync connector is for. Component does not need sync. All you need is a SCART to RGBc breakout cable, similar to the VGA to RGBHV cable you use with your Dreamcast.

Here's where I get confused. Firstly, how are you guys getting any picture at all on the latest DVDO Edge firmware? I had to revert back to 1.4 because anything after it produced a crazy picture on anything less than 480. Even SNES hooked up via s-video did this. It did not need to be 240p (unless SNES s-video does 240p which I don't think it does; I assume that has to be over RGB because the p stands for progressive).

I feed in 240p via component on my PS2 and RGBc via SCART to RGBc breakout cable (though in practise I rarely use this since I have the XRGB3 hooked up too). There's no problems with picture stability. All SNES output bar a tiny handful of games is 240p, or non-interlaced as it used to be called more commonly. Probably the fact you are feeding the EDGE a component video signal AND a sync signal from somewhere is confusing it.

Anyway, there's more I am confused with. I am reading some people saying RGBHV looks better than RGBs. Is RGBs just another way of saying RGB using composite sync or csync?

Yes, RGBs usually means the cable is using composite video for sync rather than pure sync, though people (including myself) often get muddled with the different types.

I am somewhat familiar with RGBHV as it was the way I got my Dreamcast VGA out to work with the Edge (using a VGA to 5 BNC port adapter). How do you get RGBHV from a scart cable, anyway? All my scart cables have one line for sync, not two.

That is where something like the Sync Strike comes in.

The only reason one would need an HDFury3 is if you wanted to use a scanline generator in your DVDO Edge set up, is this correct?

Correct

Finally, I do get a bit of haloing with my SNES/Genesis/NES. It's not terrible, but if there's any way to rid of it, I'd appreciate some knowledge.

The original and still best way of doing this is with the XRGB3. However, what we have recently discovered is that if you feed a 15khz RGBC signal (such as SNES/Genesis or RGB NES) into the analogue inputs normally used for VGA (the ones your Dreamcast connected to) not only does that work but it actually produces a better picture than feeding them into the dedicated RGBc inputs (the ones you mistakenly thought were component only). The ringing is still quite pronounced but the picture is a lot sharper. To do this, you will need a Sync Strike or a console that outputs pure sync rather than composite video for sync.

Hope that helps, I'll try and clarify anything that's not clear if you ask me again.

[Hamburglar]

The transcoding is unnecessary, the component inputs on the Edge accept RGB too, that's what the white sync connector is for. Component does not need sync. All you need is a SCART to RGBc breakout cable, similar to the VGA to RGBHV cable you use with your Dreamcast.

Wow. I spent $100 on this transcoder for nothing. I feel like such an idiot! I know component does not need csync, I thought I needed the trasncoder because I didn't have a SCART input on the back of my DVDO Edge. I'd love to go buy a SCART to RGBc breakout cable but after scouring eBay, monoprice, and google I've yet to come up with one!

Since I now wasted money on this scart to component trasncoder, can I use it for another plasma I have in my basement? There is no DVDO Edge hooked up to it. I'd just be confused as to where I'd put the csync in on that TV.

I feed in 240p via component on my PS2 and RGBc via SCART to RGBc breakout cable (though in practise I rarely use this since I have the XRGB3 hooked up too). There's no problems with picture stability. All SNES output bar a tiny handful of games is 240p, or non-interlaced as it used to be called more commonly. Probably the fact you are feeding the EDGE a component video signal AND a sync signal from somewhere is confusing it.

Well I had the issue even with s-video for the SNES. So I don't know if it's a sync confusion thing, but it seemed to ONLY happen with my game consoles not hooked up via HDMI.

Also, a lot of people mentioned it's better to use an older DVDO Edge firmware for 240p material. What's the reasoning for that? (I wonder if it's related to my problem with new firmware, too...)

That is where something like the Sync Strike comes in.

Searching for this device, it looks like it will do BNC outputs (which I can easily convert to RCA). If I buy this device, would it both do the thing you are talking about (allowing RGBHV) *and* remove the need for the breakout cable you mentioned in the beginning?

Hope that helps, I'll try and clarify anything that's not clear if you ask me again.

Thanks so much; it's kind of funny you're replying to me because I was linked to the site in your signature a THOUSAND times on a bunch of other forums I frequent. Really appreciate your work and any help you can give.

[Fudoh]

Also, a lot of people mentioned it's better to use an older DVDO Edge firmware for 240p material. What's the reasoning for that?

older firmware treated 240p signals as 480i content. This causes much less ringing, but can cause deinterlacing problems depending on the actual game.

Searching for this device, it looks like it will do BNC outputs (which I can easily convert to RCA).

the Sync Strike outputs through a DSub15 VGA port. But since a VGA to BNC and/or RCA breakout adapter is quite cheap, it's probably still cheaper than getting a custom made (female) Scart to RCA breakout cable.

[Hamburglar]

the Sync Strike outputs through a DSub15 VGA port. But since a VGA to BNC and/or RCA breakout adapter is quite cheap, it's probably still cheaper than getting a custom made (female) Scart to RCA breakout cable.

True but the description for the Sync Strike says "Breakout (via screw terminals)". Would I even need a VGA to BNC?

[Fudoh]

This comment of yours

I'd love to go buy a SCART to RGBc breakout cable but after scouring eBay, monoprice, and google I've yet to come up with one!

made me believe that you prefer buying a readily-available cable instead of making one by yourself.

Of course you can use the screw terminals, but I don't see how making 5 custom RCA cables is anything cheaper or easier than buying a $10 cable.

[BuckoA51]

I'd love to go buy a SCART to RGBc breakout cable but after scouring eBay, monoprice, and google I've yet to come up with one!

I guess you are in the USA? They are fairly easy to get hold of here in the UK, Keene do them (expensive) as do AVToad (very expensive). There was also a Ebay seller in Italy that had them.

Since I now wasted money on this scart to component trasncoder, can I use it for another plasma I have in my basement? There is no DVDO Edge hooked up to it. I'd just be confused as to where I'd put the csync in on that TV.

Sure, I'm guessing that TV has no SCART either? Word of warning though, some sets don't accept 240p through component at all.

Searching for this device, it looks like it will do BNC outputs (which I can easily convert to RCA). If I buy this device, would it both do the thing you are talking about (allowing RGBHV) *and* remove the need for the breakout cable you mentioned in the beginning?

Right, at least that's what our tests have been indicating so far. You'd feed the Sync Strike output into a VGA switch along with your Dreamcast, then from there into the Edge. For best results using RGBC, However I'm not sure if the Dreamcast will work in RGBC without the Extron in the chain.

Nice to see my sites getting more popular, I intend to add lots more content to it when I get time.

[fagin]

VGA to RGBHV phono leads are not that obviously obtainable from the likes of eBay.... certainly not here in the UK. VGA to RGBHV BNC is certainly easier. I bought mine recently for £4 from eBay!

[BuckoA51]

However I'm not sure if the Dreamcast will work in RGBC without the Extron in the chain.

As expected, it does not.

[Hamburglar]

This comment of yours

I'd love to go buy a SCART to RGBc breakout cable but after scouring eBay, monoprice, and google I've yet to come up with one!

made me believe that you prefer buying a readily-available cable instead of making one by yourself.

Of course you can use the screw terminals, but I don't see how making 5 custom RCA cables is anything cheaper or easier than buying a $10 cable.

I actually do prefer to buy my own ready-made one, but I assumed using a scart to BNC was going to be better picture quality than scart to vga to bnc. I just figured the less adapters and converters the better the picture (though I am assuming I am wrong).

I guess you are in the USA? They are fairly easy to get hold of here in the UK, Keene do them (expensive) as do AVToad (very expensive). There was also a Ebay seller in Italy that had them.

Yep, USA.

Sure, I'm guessing that TV has no SCART either? Word of warning though, some sets don't accept 240p through component at all.

Neither TV has SCART, they're both Panasonic Plasmas TVs. On the other one I do not have a DVDO Edge, how would I hook up sync to it using the transcoder? Where would I plug that into on my TV?

[quoteRight, at least that's what our tests have been indicating so far. You'd feed the Sync Strike output into a VGA switch along with your Dreamcast, then from there into the Edge. For best results using RGBC, However I'm not sure if the Dreamcast will work in RGBC without the Extron in the chain.[/quote]

I'm a bit confused. I have my Dreamcast hooked up RGBHV. Why are you mentioning it being hooked up via RGBC?

Sorry if my questions are dumb. I'm the one who bought a transcoder and didn't need it

[BuckoA51]

Neither TV has SCART, they're both Panasonic Plasmas TVs. On the other one I do not have a DVDO Edge, how would I hook up sync to it using the transcoder? Where would I plug that into on my TV?

You don't, component doesn't need a separate sync line.

I'm a bit confused. I have my Dreamcast hooked up RGBHV. Why are you mentioning it being hooked up via RGBC?

Well, there's only one RGBHV input on the DVDO right? For best compatibility and picture, Fagin and I have found that you should connect your consoles via RGBC into these inputs. That means if you had say, sync strike and dreamcast on a VGA switch, you would need to disconnect/reconnect the sync wire or get an Extron, you with me now?

Actually, it might be possible to leave the spare sync wire connected in that setup, so it's connected but just recieving no signal you'd have to ask Fagin

[Hamburglar]

Neither TV has SCART, they're both Panasonic Plasmas TVs. On the other one I do not have a DVDO Edge, how would I hook up sync to it using the transcoder? Where would I plug that into on my TV?

You don't, component doesn't need a separate sync line.

Hm, are you sure? My DVDO Edge will *not* show an image with just the 3 cables coming from the transcoder. It *has* to have csync going to it as well.

Neither TV has SCART, they're both Panasonic Plasmas TVs. On the other one I do not have a DVDO Edge, how would I hook up sync to it using the transcoder? Where would I plug that into on my TV?

You don't, component doesn't need a separate sync line.

Well, there's only one RGBHV input on the DVDO right? For best compatibility and picture, Fagin and I have found that you should connect your consoles via RGBC into these inputs. That means if you had say, sync strike and dreamcast on a VGA switch, you would need to disconnect/reconnect the sync wire or get an Extron, you with me now?

There's 2 component inputs on the DVDO Edge, one if you want to use csync, one if you want to use HV. I have my Dreamcast currently hooked up the HV one, so I'm not sure why I'd even want to put a sync strike in with the Dreamcast at all?

[BuckoA51]

For everyone struggling to keep up, here's a summary of what Fagin and I have discovered recently and what all this discussion is about, this all came about when we discovered the RGBHV input on the DVDO Edge was much more flexible than originally realised:-

1) If you feed a 15 Khz RGBC signal with pure sync into the Edge's bottom set of analogue inputs (that can take RGBHV) it results in a sharper picture for videogame material.

2) If you feed a 31khz RGBHV signal through the Extron RGB interface and convert it into a RGBC signal that you then feed into the Edge's bottom set of analogue inputs, it improves compatibility/Stops the screen blanking with certain equipment (so far confirmed with Sega Master System converter->XRGB3 and Xbox 1 VGA cable)

Hm, are you sure? My DVDO Edge will *not* show an image with just the 3 cables coming from the transcoder. It *has* to have csync going to it as well.

Absolutely positive, component does not need sync. Are you sure its a RGB to Component transcoder you bought?

There's 2 component inputs on the DVDO Edge, one if you want to use csync, one if you want to use HV. I have my Dreamcast currently hooked up the HV one, so I'm not sure why I'd even want to put a sync strike in with the Dreamcast at all?

Hehe do keep up (that's a joke, things have been happening so quick on this thread lately that nobody can keep up) There are indeed two analogue RGB inputs on the DVDO Edge. One takes cysnc only and the other one takes RGBHV OR RGBC. For improved picture quality with video game material you /have/ to use the one that takes RGBHV or C. You will need the sync strike in this instance because the sync signal needs to be pure (not composite video). For best compatibility you need to feed this input a RGBC signal, which the Dreamcast does not output, this presents a problem if you want to connect your Dreamcast and other things via a switch, with me now?

[Hamburglar]

Hm, are you sure? My DVDO Edge will *not* show an image with just the 3 cables coming from the transcoder. It *has* to have csync going to it as well.

Absolutely positive, component does not need sync. Are you sure its a RGB to Component transcoder you bought?

It's the popular CVS model thing everyone seems to use; actually it is scart to component cables, but it might just be scart to YUV.

There's 2 component inputs on the DVDO Edge, one if you want to use csync, one if you want to use HV. I have my Dreamcast currently hooked up the HV one, so I'm not sure why I'd even want to put a sync strike in with the Dreamcast at all?

Hehe do keep up (that's a joke, things have been happening so quick on this thread lately that nobody can keep up) There are indeed two analogue RGB inputs on the DVDO Edge. One takes cysnc only and the other one takes RGBHV OR RGBC. For improved picture quality with video game material you /have/ to use the one that takes RGBHV or C. You will need the sync strike in this instance because the sync signal needs to be pure (not composite video). For best compatibility you need to feed this input a RGBC signal, which the Dreamcast does not output, this presents a problem if you want to connect your Dreamcast and other things via a switch, with me now?

Man I am so confused now. To get the best possible picture quality, I need to use the RGBHV input, which I already do with my Dreamcast. Except I am not supposed to feed it an RGBHV signal? I'm supposed to feed it an RGBC signal and have the sync strike turn it into an RGBHV signal? I can't even fathom why that's the case? My Dreamcast is using the VGA box with RGBHV outputs. Why would composite sync be involved at all?

Also, you're saying I should be hooking my SNES to RGBHV, not the one that takes csync? So basically *nothing* in terms of classic consoles should be hooked up to the csync-using RGB input on the Edge?

[fagin]

Hamburglar,
Don't confuse composite sync with composite video.

The bottom row of RCA inputs will accept RGBHV and RGBc (composite sync on the latter).

The top row of RCA inputs will accept RGBs (composite video).

For improved picture quality on the EDGE use RGBHV or RGBc. Same row (bottom) of RCA's for RGB and choose from the two adjacent sync inputs. Use H & V for a RGBHV input or just H for a RGBc (composite sync) input.

Easy!

[Hamburglar]

Hamburglar,
Don't confuse composite sync with composite video.

The bottom row of RCA inputs will accept RGBHV and RGBc (composite sync on the latter).

The top row of RCA inputs will accept RGBs only (composite video).

For improved picture quality on the EDGE use RGBHV or RGBc. Same row (bottom) of RCA's for RGB and choose from the two adjacent sync inputs. Use H & V for a RGBHV input or just H for a RGBc (composite sync) input.

Easy!

Oh I am confused because I would never use composite video in my life and am in fact insulted anyone could think I might

When you say the top row of RCA inputs will accept composite video only, my head spins. When I think of composite video, I think of the yellow cable full of dot crawl. How can you have both RGB and composite video?

How come with that scart to YUV/component transcoder that I bought, do none of my systems work unless I have composite sync hooked up?

[BuckoA51]

He means composite video for sync, this is how RGB SCART works usually, see http://www.videogameperfection.com/scart.php#synctypes

The top row of RCA inputs will accept RGBs only (composite video).

Actually they accept RGBs (composite video for sync) or RGBC (pure sync), most of my consoles are pure sync now and they all worked correctly using these inputs.

How come with that scart to YUV/component transcoder that I bought, do none of my systems work unless I have composite sync hooked up?

That is a mystery, RGBs or RGBC should go in, and 3 component video wires should come out, I don't even understand where you are getting a sync cable from.

[fagin]

Hamburgler
Your confusing me now!! Lol

Composite video also carries a sync signal and can be used with RGB to provide a sync signal. Ignore the video bit for the moment, we are referring to it's use for a sync signal only. Since this type of sync includes video stuff as well, the sync is not pure. Composite Sync is pure sync.

So composite video can be used for video connection, but it can also be used for it's sync properties as well. The latter is what we are referring to in this instance.

[fagin]

Buckoa51,
Christ knows why said that. Post corrected.

[Hamburglar]

How come with that scart to YUV/component transcoder that I bought, do none of my systems work unless I have composite sync hooked up?

That is a mystery, RGBs or RGBC should go in, and 3 component video wires should come out, I don't even understand where you are getting a sync cable from.

I am getting the sync cable from splicing an RCA cable from the pin on the SCART cable that carries csync and it goes into the back of my DVDO Edge. So I have a SCART cable going to the transcoder, and from the transcoder comes three cables (red green and blue) and I also have a sync cable I hacked by splicing it from the SCART cable which goes to the back of the DVDO Edge.

If I don't use this sync cable I spliced, I get no picture.