DUX for Dreamcast

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For RHE,

Do you plan to sell Dux through your website or to a few select video game retailer chains?

Selling DUX in the USA retail stores would be an interesting situation for the DC platform since Sega of America closed it's doors on the USA region DC console back in 2001. I'm sure it would fare much better in the Asian market, especially Japan... ^_~

If a Japanese game publisher were to gain exclusive rights to publish DUX and distribute it in Japan, would you do so? Would be smart business sense to get the word out to the Japanese DC shmup crowd beforehand to generate potential demand & sales... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[christuserloeser]

Having read through this thread (and the one at ntsc-wtf.macguyver.org), I love how this turned into an entirely off-topic discussion led by a handful of individuals who obviously have no interest in DUX but lots of fun trolling.


Anyway, I learned many interesting things today, like a game possibly being an "euroshmup", a word I never heard of before and which apparently is some kind of an insult.

Or that a game similar or comparable to R-Type is a "straight R-Type clone/ripoff" while Galaga has nothing to do with Space Invaders (but even if it would that might be a bad thing!).

Or that it definitely is a "doujin" game, no matter if it will be professionally published on a physical disc and sold for money.

Or that it better be released for PC/Xbox360/PS3/PS2 but looks like a GBA game that wouldn't sell on a PS1 - and although it's a "budget title and plays (!) like a budget title" and of course "should be a budget title" it definitely is not "worthy of a $30 price tag" because the game is similar to a "great number of PC game ripoffs" available "as shareware on the internet" (which "basically take an idea from a popular game series").


Also, many many people here (and over at ntsc-yo.chucknorris.org) seem to have "played it" (Last Hope) and now -for whatever reason- desperately need to convince the game's graphic artist that it's "cheap, nasty ham and water product", but that he comes off as a developer with an "amazing level of arrogance" when he tries to explain that people might have misunderstood the game for something it is not. Yet, they don't like to hear exactly that "again and again" as it's "getting ridiculous". And, although they insist on their right to insult said person and his work (because the game wouldn't belong to him anymore), do claim that he comes off as the "Uwe Boll of video game designers" if he asks for something like constructive criticism.

My advice: If anyone of you bought Last Hope and/or belong to those people who have "played it" but don't like it (or don't have played it but still don't like it for whatever reason) and don't want to give it another chance: Sell it! - You will get good money for a mint copy of this game at ebay. In case you downloaded it, throw away the CDR. Simple as that.

[ubersaurus]

It's because the only shooters anyone likes on this forum is apparently everything cave shits out. Everything else is some great argument about whether or not its any good: Compile's games I've seen arguments over. Last Hope obviously. Hell, anything from the 80s or 90s is subject to being ripped apart(and if it's from the early 80s or 70s, it'll be ignored or shat on).

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten on here, and it is ridiculous. I like shooters that aren't bullet hells a LOT more than the ones that are. I like Compile's games. I like hard shit that makes me figure out my way through the game like Last Hope. And I sure as hell think Dux looks sweet. But, because it's not throwing a billion bullets at you, that seems to make it the subject of ridicule.

Maybe my tastes run too classically. But games like Dux, or Last Hope, or Under Defeat, these are the shooters I look forward to, and really enjoy. I can count the number of times I've played Shikigami 2 on one hand, but I can't count how many hours I've spent with LH or UD.

[shoe-sama]

cave is shit lol

unless you're good enough for loop 2, then it's not shit and actually gets interesting

but you still have to play through shit loop 1 every time which sucks



also compile isnt hard it has friggin lifebars
its like taking the amount of lives and bombs you get in mahou daisakusen, DP, and DDP, and adding them all up

[Turrican]

Or that it definitely is a "doujin" game, no matter if it will be professionally published on a physical disc and sold for money.

Don't be delusional. What are you trying to say - that the difference between homebrew and commercial boils down to be burned on a cd and sold at retail? Well, that's just not true.

I asked why these games weren't made available for download services like XBLA or PSN. No one replied this. Except a forum member which hinted at obvious reasons - quality checks, for example.

Published on a physical disc and sold for money - sure, on a dead platform. Pure definition of doujin. Check out the doujin sountrack releases: I can assure you they are physically sold on cd, the artwork is well printed and all that.

[Stormwatch]

cave is shit lol
also compile isnt hard it has friggin lifebars
its like taking the amount of lives and bombs you get in mahou daisakusen, DP, and DDP, and adding them all up

Even so, I feel Compile games are too hard because they tend to be so fast that I can't keep track of what the hell is going on.

[320x240]

Anyway, I learned many interesting things today, like a game possibly being an "euroshmup", a word I never heard of before and which apparently is some kind of an insult.

Euroshump is just a generalization and as such doesn't really concern individual games. Just what is meant by Euroshump is up for debate and I guess that is why it hasn't got it's own entry in the glossary. To me it is not so much about this or that feature as it is about a certain attitude to shmups. Not every European shmup is an Euroshmup and not every Euroshmup is developed in Europe. For instance I regard the Tohou games as spiritually linked to the Euroshmups. Treasure's games too have much Euroshmup in them and there is no doubt that many modern Japanese games, with their reliance on elaborate score systems, are made with an attitude not far from that of the Euroshmup. Most US-developed games are very Euroshmup, with some idiosyncrasies of their own. I prefer calling games of this sort for Amerishmups.


Japshmup: The orientation is usually vertical and even when horizontal it retains some typical vertical traits, like unrestricted movement over the whole playing area. The gameplay is built around bullet dodging and fast reflexes. Lolis are not central to gameplay but adds some much needed tittilation.

Euroshmup: The orientation is usually horizontal and even when it's vertical it retains some typical horizontal traits, like walls you can crash into. The gameplay is built around tactical play and memorization. The design is always futuristic and the music is composed by Rafael Dyll.

Amerishmup: The orientation is usually vertical or multi-directional. The gameplay is built around tactical play and upgrading your initially weak weapons. The setting is always ripped straight from Star Wars.

[Necronom]

@Turrican
I guess the said forum member forgot to mention that it was such a "quality check" that killed Ketsui for xbla...
It's probably a much better idea to develop for PC or DC first, get some feedback and port later to one of the networks.

It's priced at 20 Euros and the devs have some experience with "R-Type style" games. Doesn't sound like a bad foundation to build upon imho. While constructive criticism is good and all, in the end it'll be done the way the devs think is the best.
Btw, the blog and site are down. Hope it's an update and not a retreat, RHE

[Turrican]

@Turrican
I guess the said forum member forgot to mention that it was such a "quality check" that killed Ketsui for xbla...
It's probably a much better idea to develop for PC or DC first, get some feedback and port later to one of the networks.

Oh, but I never said which is worse and which better - In truth, I fail to see how DCEvoCE could talk about doujin as if it were a kind of insult. The homebrew scene has lots of advantages (like the one you said? Although Ketsui -rejected or not- was developed as a commercial game) and should be defended with pride. Instead of, you know, claiming you're something else just because you factory press cds.

t's priced at 20 Euros and the devs have some experience with "R-Type style" games. Doesn't sound like a bad foundation to build upon imho.

Not a bad one at all!

[RHE]

Do you plan to sell Dux through your website or to a few select video game retailer chains?

Videogameimports.com is going to stock DUX for sure. I'm pretty sure also other that american retailers such as NCSX will do so too.

If a Japanese game publisher were to gain exclusive rights to publish DUX and distribute it in Japan, would you do so?

When the game would still published around the world, I would think about that. Why do you asking?

I fail to see how DCEvoCE could talk about doujin as if it were a kind of insult.

I don't think its DCEvoCE fault. It's rather the fault of those who using this term in a negative meaning to often. Besides that, DCEvoCE is nailing the things as there are pretty well.

Btw, the blog and site are down. Hope it's an update and not a retreat, RHE

I'm just switching the provider, everything will be online soon. I am not retreat.

[Turrican]

I don't think its DCEvoCE fault. It's rather the fault of those who using this term in a negative meaning to often.

I don't think so - by defending a game from the accuse to be doujin (trying to say it isn't), he implicitly assumes the negative meaning, and thus reinforces a stereotyped vision.

[Shatterhand]

cave is shit lol
also compile isnt hard it has friggin lifebars
its like taking the amount of lives and bombs you get in mahou daisakusen, DP, and DDP, and adding them all up

Even so, I feel Compile games are too hard because they tend to be so fast that I can't keep track of what the hell is going on.

What Compile shmup has Lifebars (Well, Gulkave and Final Justice does, but I doubt more than 5 forum users have played both games) ? And who said Compile games are hard? I said they are hard for newbie shmup players, and that's a fact. Put someone with no experience with shmups to play Strikers 1945 or Dodonpachi, and he will probably get to level 2 or level 3. Put the same guy to play Aleste 2 or Zanac NES and he will be destroyed in 30 seconds. (I've seen this happening more than once). Yet more experienced shmups will finish Zanac without much effort while Strikers 1945 is still unbeaten by many here.

[RHE]

Japshmup, Euroshmup, Amerishmup

From your description I just settle DUX in between Japshmup and Euroshmup.

I don't think so - by defending a game from the accuse to be doujin (trying to say it isn't), he implicitly assumes the negative meaning, and thus reinforces a stereotyped vision.

Maybe he's just thinking it's negative because he dont know that the term means. He has to clarify this by himslef I guess.

Put someone with no experience with shmups to play Strikers 1945 or Dodonpachi, and he will probably get to level 2 or level 3. Put the same guy to play Aleste 2 or Zanac NES and he will be destroyed in 30 seconds.

Do you now the reason for this? Sound just like Dodonpachi is just more accessible while compile games aren't.

[Turrican]

Japshmup, Euroshmup, Amerishmup

From your description I just settle DUX in between Japshmup and Euroshmup.

I'd dissociate from that line of thinking, if I were you. There are no such categories - the most recognizable one among them, the european one, has just come to label a certain group of blatant flaws in game design. Therefore, it's better to talk about flaws and merits, instead of fictional regions.

Do you now the reason for this? Sound just like Dodonpachi is just more accessible while compile games aren't.

It's a radically different approach. It may be long to explain fully, but just to have a glimpse: Compile did never develop for arcades (except one never released spriggan game iirc).

[bakaichi]

Japshmup: The orientation is usually vertical and even when horizontal it retains some typical vertical traits, like unrestricted movement over the whole playing area. The gameplay is built around bullet dodging and fast reflexes. Lolis are not central to gameplay but adds some much needed tittilation.

Euroshmup: The orientation is usually horizontal and even when it's vertical it retains some typical horizontal traits, like walls you can crash into. The gameplay is built around tactical play and memorization. The design is always futuristic and the music is composed by Rafael Dyll.

Amerishmup: The orientation is usually vertical or multi-directional. The gameplay is built around tactical play and upgrading your initially weak weapons. The setting is always ripped straight from Star Wars.

I laughed at this. I read it again and I laugh. It's funny but I trust your expertice.

[Shatterhand]

RHE wrote:

Do you now the reason for this? Sound just like Dodonpachi is just more accessible while compile games aren't.


It's a radically different approach. It may be long to explain fully, but just to have a glimpse: Compile did never develop for arcades (except one never released spriggan game iirc).

I've talked about this with JP in another thread... it seems Compile games are actually easy, but they start at a high difficulty level.. but the difficulty curve isn't steep, so in the last level the game is just a little bit harder than it was on the 1st level. In the other hand, lets say Dodonpachi, starts very easy on the 1st level, but on the 3rd level the difficulty is brutally ramped up.(And then again on the 4th level). It's like Compile shmups already start on the same difficulty level of the 3rd level of Dodonpachi, but it never hits the level of difficulty of the 4th level. We also noticed the same thing happening with Technosoft games (Which is where JP has more of his knowledge, while I do know a lot about Compile). Thunder Force series and Blast Wind are a breeze for experienced shmuppers, but newbie players are completely owned right on the beginning.

And both Technosoft and Compile games were developed for the home-market, not arcade. They didn't need that "Welcome 1st level" so the player feels safe to put another coin when he loses. Technosoft made Hyper Duel on the arcades, and that game has an easy 1st level.

In my personal opinion, home games don't need a breeze 1st level. They can start kicking the player ass since the very beginning.

[spadgy]

Only just caught up on this thread, but DUX looks pretty interesting to me. I may well preorder real soon. Frankly the idea of still being able to buy a new DC game bias me towards it! Might not make me like it, but it makes me want to like it! Idiotic, but true! Let's hope it lives up to what I'd like it to be!

It's because the only shooters anyone likes on this forum is apparently everything cave shits out.

That's a bit harsh! Sure there's lots of Cave love here, but there's plenty of love for other shooters. The hi-score and strategy sections here show how much time forum members have for other games!

[Turrican]

RHE wrote:

Do you now the reason for this? Sound just like Dodonpachi is just more accessible while compile games aren't.


It's a radically different approach. It may be long to explain fully, but just to have a glimpse: Compile did never develop for arcades (except one never released spriggan game iirc).

I've talked about this with JP in another thread... it seems Compile games are actually easy, but they start at a high difficulty level.. but the difficulty curve isn't steep, so in the last level the game is just a little bit harder than it was on the 1st level. In the other hand, lets say Dodonpachi, starts very easy on the 1st level, but on the 3rd level the difficulty is brutally ramped up.(And then again on the 4th level). It's like Compile shmups already start on the same difficulty level of the 3rd level of Dodonpachi, but it never hits the level of difficulty of the 4th level. We also noticed the same thing happening with Technosoft games (Which is where JP has more of his knowledge, while I do know a lot about Compile). Thunder Force series and Blast Wind are a breeze for experienced shmuppers, but newbie players are completely owned right on the beginning.

And both Technosoft and Compile games were developed for the home-market, not arcade. They didn't need that "Welcome 1st level" so the player feels safe to put another coin when he loses. Technosoft made Hyper Duel on the arcades, and that game has an easy 1st level.

In my personal opinion, home games don't need a breeze 1st level. They can start kicking the player ass since the very beginning.

Well, we're probably already off-topic, so...

I think they're a different kind of "difficulty". Compile has a tactical approach to verticals: you usually are thrown a lot of different kind of bullets, and at first the situation appears critical - but there's always a weapon or two that shields you completely from a certain attack. So it's a matter of adapting to the moment, get or keep the right weapon at a given time. That's all the "difficulty" you'll get: understand how the game works. As you say, the increment of harshness from the first stage to the last is moderate.

Dodonpachi comes from the Toaplan experience. You have to constantly dodge and you don't have convenient escapes like shield weapons or force pods - you're only save button is the bomb, and that's lmited. Add to all this familiar Toaplan landscapes chaining and bullet patterns, and you've got a quite challenging package.

One is built to be satisfying in the mid-term, the other is built for endurance and contests. One relies on a tactical concept, not unlike R-Type (although luckily Compile doesn't fall in the heavy memorization trap), the other on quick reflexes. One must lure you into shell out $50 once, the other to suck you a quarter every five minutes.

[christuserloeser]

by defending a game from the accuse to be doujin (trying to say it isn't), he implicitly assumes the negative meaning, and thus reinforces a stereotyped vision.

True that.

Allow me to clarify: Personally I love homebrew ("doujin") but when you plan to release your game as a commercial product, it's not exactly homebrew anymore. It's (at least semi-)professional, yet independent (developed free from commercial restrictions).

Take the Japanese Dreamcast shmup developers whose work is getting published by SEGA of Japan. Most of them are teams as small as the DUX team (or even smaller!). Yet I doubt one should label their work as "doujin".

- To the people here "doujin" obviously seems to be a label for bad amateur games. I tried to reflect this but failed for the reasons you've mentioned.

[Zebra Airforce]

Incorrect. Doujin games are often printed and distributed for money, and are therefore commercial. Touhou, Bike Banditz, Trouble Witches, Hellsinker., all of these games were released for the moneys.

[RHE]

I'd dissociate from that line of thinking, if I were you. There are no such categories - the most recognizable one among them, the european one, has just come to label a certain group of blatant flaws in game design. Therefore, it's better to talk about flaws and merits, instead of fictional regions.

I don't think that way like 320x240 was describing it. Putting DUX in bettween of that line of thinking just shows how superfluously such decription is. It only will make you enjoying games less when pitting them into such boundaries.

Well, we're probably already off-topic, so...

This is absolutly on-topic since I will consider those suggestions to make DUX better.

although luckily Compile doesn't fall in the heavy memorization trap), the other on quick reflexes.

I'm not sure about this. When playing Blazing Lasers etc., I have memorize the game just as R-Type. It just feels less heavy, since those games are more fast and more fogiving. You just don't have to repeat a section over and over again. From the pure memorizing aspect it feels to me equally to R-Type.

I've talked about this with JP in another thread... it seems Compile games are actually easy, but they start at a high difficulty level.. but the difficulty curve isn't steep, so in the last level the game is just a little bit harder than it was on the 1st level. In the other hand, lets say Dodonpachi, starts very easy on the 1st level, but on the 3rd level the difficulty is brutally ramped up.(And then again on the 4th level). It's like Compile shmups already start on the same difficulty level of the 3rd level of Dodonpachi, but it never hits the level of difficulty of the 4th level. We also noticed the same thing happening with Technosoft games (Which is where JP has more of his knowledge, while I do know a lot about Compile). Thunder Force series and Blast Wind are a breeze for experienced shmuppers, but newbie players are completely owned right on the beginning.

And both Technosoft and Compile games were developed for the home-market, not arcade. They didn't need that "Welcome 1st level" so the player feels safe to put another coin when he loses. Technosoft made Hyper Duel on the arcades, and that game has an easy 1st level.

In my personal opinion, home games don't need a breeze 1st level. They can start kicking the player ass since the very beginning.

I agree with that. Nonetheless, DUX will feature such a welcome level but when reaching the next loops even the first stage will have a higher level of difficutly. I think it makes the first stage/whole game fair for beginners and still not boring for experinced players as they can select the loop in the options when they beat the game on the first loop.

[Turrican]

Allow me to clarify: Personally I love homebrew ("doujin") but when you plan to release your game as a commercial product, it's not exactly homebrew anymore. It's (at least semi-)professional, yet independent (developed free from commercial restrictions).

Take the Japanese Dreamcast shmup developers whose work is getting published by SEGA of Japan. Most of them are teams as small as the DUX team (or even smaller!). Yet I doubt one should label their work as "doujin".

- To the people here "doujin" obviously seems to be a label for bad amateur games. I tried to reflect this but failed for the reasons you've mentioned.

To be honest - the fact is that around these parts the guys are quite picky. They are experts and take pride in that. I'm sure someone wouldn't hesitate to call games such as Chaos Field or Trizeal little more than amateurish attempts. And that's from developers with a loong curriculum and endorsed by Sega.

Whether the game is "semi-professional" or not is a moot point. The fact that is available for download, or on the other hand can be bought on expensive MVS carts - all that shouldn't matter, and no coat of finely reproduced cover artworks will really do in favor of the game. What counts is gameplay.

Surely you agree with me that a true gem can be published on a budget line with no frills whatsoever, and a flawed game can be sold in ultra-deluxe-edition. Likewise, a great doujin game might never be published officially, yet there are lots of bad official games out there.

In short, the debate "it's doujin" "no, it's not" is pointless. IF LH left in someone the impression that it was a bit amateurish, you have to consider three points:

1) that person might just be misplaced demographic. "Grown up inside a Cave", he may just be unprepared for the outside. Your tactical game would have on him the same eeek effect than Densha de Go.

2) that person might know his/her stuff. In that case, going bully and say he "doesn't understand" it's not a great way to make friends on forums. And yeah... a good share of people here know their stuff.

3) finally, you're at the second attempt, so it's entirely possible that you didn't start with a flawless masterpiece. But it's all good if in the end it turned out exactly like you wanted it to be, I guess.

[Turrican]

I'd dissociate from that line of thinking, if I were you. There are no such categories - the most recognizable one among them, the european one, has just come to label a certain group of blatant flaws in game design. Therefore, it's better to talk about flaws and merits, instead of fictional regions.

I don't think that way like 320x240 was describing it. Putting DUX in bettween of that line of thinking just shows how superfluously such decription is. It only will make you enjoying games less when pitting them into such boundaries.

Yeah, but read again that description - it makes little sense. Japanese hories with unrestricted movement? Where does that leave Gradius and R-Type? The whole US production hasn't the critical mass to talk about american shmups and so on...

Well, we're probably already off-topic, so...

This is absolutly on-topic since I will consider those suggestions to make DUX better.

That's the spirit!

although luckily Compile doesn't fall in the heavy memorization trap), the other on quick reflexes.

I'm not sure about this. When playing Blazing Lasers etc., I have memorize the game just as R-Type. It just feels less heavy, since those games are more fast and more fogiving. You just don't have to repeat a section over and over again. From the pure memorizing aspect it feels to me equally to R-Type.

Hmm, I couldn't say... But please consider that I'd put Blazing Lazers at the lower spectrum of Compile's overall quality.

[spadgy]

I think what makes homebrew (and Doujin, which I know less about) and indie gaming so appealing also makes it so hard to define. It doesn’t fit in with norms, and thus causes arguments.

I’ve always thought indie/independent best describes the small team and homebrew games that sells, while freeware best describes the free stuff.

I thought pricing/commercial release (or lack of) wasn’t a defining factor of what makes a Doujin or Homebrew. Perhaps I’m wrong.

Messily swingingthings vagually near topic:

RHE.... did you consider a Wii Ware release for DUX? Also, why go for a DC release (personally I love the fact it’s for DC)? Is that because the cult status of the console and the novelty of a new game on the format serves your sales well? I’m just curious...

(Sorry if somebody asked that already!

[RHE]

that person might know his/her stuff. In that case, going bully and say he "doesn't understand" it's not a great way to make friends on forums. And yeah... a good share of people here know their stuff.

There's nothing bully-ish about 'You don't understead'. It only means that someone consequently does not show any approache in understanding. It does not mean that the same person is not able to understand.

RHE.... did you consider a Wii Ware release for DUX? Also, why go for a DC release (personally I love the fact it’s for DC)? Is that because the cult status of the console and the novelty of a new game on the format serves your sales well? I’m just curious...

I don't have clear opinion on that. While I think that stuff like WiiWare/XBLA/PSN are great opportunities, especially for independent devs, they all have the same flaw - no physical disc. I just don't like the idea so a DC release with physical disc is the best choice to me.

[spadgy]

I don't have clear opinion on that. While I think that stuff like WiiWare/XBLA/PSN are great opportunities, especially for independent devs, they all have the same flaw - no physical disc. I just don't like the idea so a DC release with physical disc is the best choice to me.

Good for you I say. Releasing on a format because of personal tastes rather than business motivations is a great reason to pick the DC.

[undamned]

I may well preorder real soon. Frankly the idea of still being able to buy a new DC game bias me towards it! Might not make me like it, but it makes me want to like it! Idiotic, but true! Let's hope it lives up to what I'd like it to be!

I'm sure you represent a lot of people, spadge. It then boils down to how fast the word on the quality of the game travels:

Crappy game w/ no warning - "curious gamer" sales + collector sales
Crappy game w/ warning - collector sales

Good game w/ no praise - "curious gamer" sales + collector sales
Good game w/ praise - many overall sales

So the best way to make money is:
A) Try and keep people in the dark and seduce them w/ a few snazzy screenshots and the "Hey Dreamcast Fan!" bandwagon
or
B) Make a great game and get it in the hands of some respectable reviewers before you actually make it available for public puchase/piracy.
-ud

[Turrican]

I don't have clear opinion on that. While I think that stuff like WiiWare/XBLA/PSN are great opportunities, especially for independent devs, they all have the same flaw - no physical disc. I just don't like the idea so a DC release with physical disc is the best choice to me.

You're letting a lot of potential buyers out ~me, for example~ because you have a fetish for packaging? Awesome.

Look, I'm still no new-gen but the first thing I'll do with my future PS3 will be to grab Stardust! If you believe in DUX, I think you should consider a conversion. With Last Hope you did pretty good: it's on three different platforms after all.

I too am an old grumpy gamer!! I know how cool were the cartridge days! But honestly... Let's carry on. The world changed and DLC is everywhere, and it's cool this way. Think to it - what's the real advantage of physical support? It makes for a great fan-service, but other than that, it just takes room.

[spadgy]

I too am an old grumpy gamer!! I know how cool were the cartridge days! But honestly... Let's carry on. The world changed and DLC is everywhere, and it's cool this way. Think to it - what's the real advantage of physical support? It makes for a great fan-service, but other than that, it just takes room.

Despite what I said, very good point...

[christuserloeser]

To be honest - the fact is that around these parts the guys are quite picky. They are experts and take pride in that.

No problem with that at all and I don't think I expect anything else/less. Problem however is that some of these "experts" claim that RHE would not be a picky expert, but an "average amateur at best" - not exactly "a way to make friends on a forum"

Of course I am extremely picky myself when it comes to games that I would consider spending my valued time with.