Cave shmups coming to X360 confirmed!

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:09 am

professor ganson wrote:
Django! wrote:Anyone know the file size of Ketsui and DDP? Live has a 150 meg limit.
The code hasn't been cracked, so how is anyone going to know?

Wouldn't an ISO or ROM provide a good guess?

While the 360 is derided by some as a console just for FPS's, this association is what makes it the console for shmups in Japan.

That... actually makes sense.

Hate the "360 is for FPS" jargon, though. Most people who say that apparently don't own any other types of games on the system.

Yeah, because they did so much for that localization. You know, changing one piece of script so that it was no longer region coded. I'm sure Ubisoft poured a ton of money into Senko no Ronde. And I'm sure, after it sold about 2000 its first few weeks out, that Ubisoft was horribly disappointed in the free $120,000 that was handed to them by G.Rev's US fanbase.

I didn't even KNOW ABOUT Senko until it was OOP.

I won't accept shoddy build quality

That's why I stayed away from the PS2.

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:11 am

for the record, i never cried or begged for a port but now since there is...time to ........

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:17 am

Django! wrote:
I didn't even KNOW ABOUT Senko until it was OOP.

you can get it new from newegg or amazon.. there's fucking tons of unsold stock out there.

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:21 am

Kiken wrote:
Necronom wrote:NONE of the XBLA releases like Triggerheart or Omega Five stayed JP only so every claim that the Cave ports will stay in Japan is nothing but a guess, not even a very informed one.
MS's strategy is pretty simple - make a lot of money, on a global scale. Pleasing a couple of japanese fans who can go to the arcade and play the games there anyway doesn't exactly sound like a smart business strategy.
The XBLA people do surf the web and they are perfectly aware of places like this forum and the fanhype/adoration around titles like Castlevania-Symphony, Metal Slug 3, Ikaruga or Ketsui.
Though I don't expect Cave to put a lot of work into this I'll wager that both titles will end up as global XBLA releases.
Ketsui and DOJBL aren't XBLA. They are physical media releases.

Also, it's been stated that Cave have little to do with these ports, it's mostly all 5pb.

Does the famitsu article mention physical media? The involment of Cave is mentioned by gamefront.de that's where I got it from. Maybe a misinterpretation on behalf of the news poster there.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:24 am

CAVE is not mentioned as being involved in the porting anywhere in the article. They just have a blurb from the 5pb producer (Masaki Sakari) who's heading the porting effort.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:29 am

i couldnt see any mention of media on any of those scans..

lets face it, if they were going to make internationally released physical media versions, they would have already have done so on PS2, as it STILL has the biggest userbase of any home console, and espgaluda2 and mushi were released at the tail end of the PS2's life, with a leverl of user saturation that the 360 will never see.

if its XBLA, we'll get it

physical media? nuh uh - sorry kiddies.

EOJ wrote:CAVE is not mentioned as being involved in the porting anywhere in the article. They just have a blurb from the 5pb producer (Masaki Sakari) who's heading the porting effort.

it's even co-copyrighted to 5pB on the bottom of the page... if the cave source code is easily portable, we shouldnt have anything to worry about.. it's not like the 360 has the same RAM restrictions as PS2

jpolz · Post by **jpolz** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:31 am

pixelcorps wrote:i couldnt see any mention of media on any of those scans..

lets face it, if they were going to make internationally released physical media versions, they would have already have done so on PS2, as it STILL has the biggest userbase of any home console, and espgaluda2 and mushi were released at the tail end of the PS2's life, with a leverl of user saturation that the 360 will never see.

if its XBLA, we'll get it

physical media? nuh uh - sorry kiddies.

PS2 had forced region coding. They would have had to find a publisher for each region.

On the 360, they can choose to not region code the disc and sell the same release worldwide.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:37 am

jpolz wrote:
PS2 had forced region coding. They would have had to find a publisher for each region.

On the 360, they can choose to not region code the disc and sell the same release worldwide.

Nope.

the packaging and CD screen print would have to be changed for US / JP and EU because of languages and ratings - MS won't allow it through otherwise.

same goes for the front end and logo designs on the game.. the ketsui logo doesnt feature a word of non-japanese, again, something that would not pass MS's standards.

.. and from an international sales standpoint, dodonpachi daioujou is commercial suicide for a name....

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:42 am

Fastest growing thread ever?

MathU wrote: I agree. I believe the Wii has a large (probably larger than the 360, considering worldwide Wii sales) untapped market of "hardcore" gamers that nobody has taken advantage of yet. I myself would really like to take advantage of my awesome Classic controller already.

I was thinking that too. And isn´t the Wii better for displaying lower resolutions? Then again, I have no clue about console specs, so... *shrugs*

jpolz · Post by **jpolz** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:47 am

pixelcorps wrote:
jpolz wrote:
PS2 had forced region coding. They would have had to find a publisher for each region.

On the 360, they can choose to not region code the disc and sell the same release worldwide.
Nope.

the packaging and CD screen print would have to be changed for US / JP and EU because of languages and ratings - MS won't allow it through otherwise.

same goes for the front end and logo designs on the game.. the ketsui logo doesnt feature a word of non-japanese, again, something that would not pass MS's standards.

.. and from an international sales standpoint, dodonpachi daioujou is commercial suicide for a name....

I never said they would localize it. If they leave it region-free, a sale is a sale whether it's sold in a gamer in Japan, or to somebdy in the US who imports it.

They already know they have an international fanbase who will buy it weather it gets localized or not, so long as they don't have to buy a second console to play it.

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:53 am

As far as I know the shmup (including boarderliners like Space Giraffe) releases on XBLA were all rather successful or at least made the money back that had to be invested to produce them. The two disc releases on the other hand were a finacial disaster. Porting and distributing both Cave games won't be very costly and at 10$ for a title there WILL be lots of impulse buys. Believe it or not, releasing them through XBLA, aiming at the people who would love to see it emulated but are not willing to spend big bucks, will finally result in a bigger profit than going after a few fans (how many of them do own a 360?) with a disc release.
I'll be very surprised if this turns out to be anything else than a XBLA release...worldwide because "profit" is the name of the game

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:56 am

the packaging and CD screen print would have to be changed for US / JP and EU because of languages and ratings - MS won't allow it through otherwise.

He means marketed in Japan, sold through various channels overseas... not actually marketed, packaged, and sold in big stores in the US/EU.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:01 am

space giraffe was definitely not 'rather successful'. also, you need to factor in the fact that microsoft cream a majority % for all games released on xbla - only a percentage actually goes to the developer. and no matter how you slice it releasing STG's is not a very profitable business. could also be that 5pb are getting a kick-back from MS like many other japanese firms for trying to grow the jp 360 market. like i said before, your best bet would be hoping for an asian release (which has more chance of being region-free than a jp-only release)

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:02 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
the packaging and CD screen print would have to be changed for US / JP and EU because of languages and ratings - MS won't allow it through otherwise.
He means marketed in Japan, sold through various channels overseas... not actually marketed, packaged, and sold in big stores in the US/EU.

got that now - "grey import" might have been a better term than "sell worldwide"

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:05 am

jpj wrote:space giraffe was definitely not 'rather successful'. also, you need to factor in the fact that microsoft cream a majority % for all games released on xbla - only a percentage actually goes to the developer. and no matter how you slice it releasing STG's is not a very profitable business. could also be that 5pb are getting a kick-back from MS like many other japanese firms for trying to grow the jp 360 market. like i said before, your best bet would be hoping for an asian release (which has more chance of being region-free than a jp-only release)

Judging from the number of people on the leaderboards before the patch was released before Christmas (which subsequently wiped the leaderboards) there were approx. 15,000+ sales of Space Giraffe. My guess is that it's sold the best part of 20,000 by now, which is on-par with those PS2 Cave releases, which is pretty respectible IMO for a game made by 2 people.

Also, you're wrong about the dev cut of profits, for some it's as much as 75%. Even at 50%, you're talking substantially more than you'd get printing discs and publishing that way.

Having all these cheap, niche games, is exactly what XBLA is all about. I mean, look at Rez, that was a flop at retail, and I'll bet Ikargua wasn't much better, and look where they now live. When you've got the head of Treasure talking about releasing a HD version of Radiant Silvergun on XBLA, I think you can pretty much safely bet that all those smaller companies have seen the benefits of digital distribution.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:05 am

pixelcorps wrote:dodonpachi daioujou is commercial suicide for a name....

Mobile Light Force 3?

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:15 am

jpj wrote:space giraffe was definitely not 'rather successful'. also, you need to factor in the fact that microsoft cream a majority % for all games released on xbla - only a percentage actually goes to the developer. and no matter how you slice it releasing STG's is not a very profitable business. could also be that 5pb are getting a kick-back from MS like many other japanese firms for trying to grow the jp 360 market. like i said before, your best bet would be hoping for an asian release (which has more chance of being region-free than a jp-only release)

To my knowledge Space Giraffe was one of the titles that broke even while Omega Five, which btw was much more expensive than the Ketsui port probably ever will be, was rather successful. I'm perfectly aware that MS is taking a good chunk of the profit but I'm also pretty sure that a release through XBLA will still mean a bigger profit for the developer/people responsible for the port than a couple of thousand disc copies.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:20 am

bcass wrote:
jpj wrote:space giraffe was definitely not 'rather successful'. also, you need to factor in the fact that microsoft cream a majority % for all games released on xbla - only a percentage actually goes to the developer. and no matter how you slice it releasing STG's is not a very profitable business. could also be that 5pb are getting a kick-back from MS like many other japanese firms for trying to grow the jp 360 market. like i said before, your best bet would be hoping for an asian release (which has more chance of being region-free than a jp-only release)
Judging from the number of people on the leaderboards before the patch was released before Christmas (which subsequently wiped the leaderboards) there were approx. 15,000+ sales of Space Giraffe. My guess is that it's sold the best part of 20,000 by now, which is on-par with those PS2 Cave releases, which is pretty respectible IMO for a game made by 2 people.

Also, you're wrong about the dev cut of profits, for some it's as much as 75%. Even at 50%, you're talking substantially more than you'd get printing discs and publishing that way.

Having all these cheap, niche games, is exactly what XBLA is all about. I mean, look at Rez, that was a flop at retail, and I'll bet Ikargua wasn't much better, and look where they now live.

(you sure edit your posts a lot

)

the DC release of ikaruga went through several re-preints and sold pretty well

i can't speak for the other territories, but even the PAL GC version sold out of their initial print run within 1 week. unfortunately atari couldn't produce another batch quickly because the company who prints their GC discs were doing more batches of enter the matrix which sold surprisingly well in the UK (no justice, then).

if these are boxed full-price titles 5pb would make around £20/$40 per unit. as an xbla release, if they're making £5 per unit, they need to sell 4x as many.

part of the problem is that MS (same as other console manufacturers) set limits on what games can be priced (RRP).

i think jeff minter has said on his website that space giraffe barely broke even; and given all the stress of dealing with submitting and approval process of xbla, hasn't been a very worthwhile experience. mind you, he is a cry-baby!

malik11 · Post by **malik11** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:25 am

pixelcorps wrote:
jpolz wrote: .. and from an international sales standpoint, dodonpachi daioujou is commercial suicide for a name....

You might say that the name Dodonpachi Daioujou is commercial daioujou for a name.

Harlequin · Post by **Harlequin** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:35 am

Shmupdoctor wrote:This is the best gaming news I've heard in awhile. Never been prouder of being a 360 owner. To the people calling the 360 a heap of shit: It's the best tasting shit in the world right now

Typical Xbox360/Microsoft Fanboy Comment.

Microsoft feeds us shit and we love it, it tastes so GOOD, YUMMY!

Harlequin

KNTain · Post by **KNTain** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:38 am

It's like some people here are stuck in 2002 or something.

hey guys is the micro$oft xbox huge or what more like crashbox lol

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:39 am

jpj wrote:i think jeff minter has said on his website that space giraffe barely broke even

Jeff Minter has admitted that the main mistake was charging so little for the game (just 400 points). Also, from the perspective of the developers, XBLA titles don't dissapear off shelves, they don't have limited print runs, they will keep reaping profit for as long as the service exists (possibly years down the line).

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:46 am

bcass wrote: Also, you're wrong about the dev cut of profits, for some it's as much as 75%.

only if youre a developer of "AAA" products that MS want to keep sweet.

I doubt cave would get any better than the new , recently slashed 35% standard for "indies"

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:47 am

Well, nobody knows the full story with that just yet, and it certainly isn't all devs who are being offered 35%.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:53 am

I do.

indies get 35% , publishers keep the old deal.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:57 am

pixelcorps wrote:I do.

indies get 35% , majors keep the old deal.

Well, I'll take your word for it, but if that was the case then Minter would have packed-up with XBLA by now. He's gone on record as saying Llamasoft can't exist with that kind of deal.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:59 am

well, I guess the guy that wrote the visualizer for the console might be getting kept sweet..

noones gonna say anything officially, its breach of NDA, and being on the wrong end of a MS lawsuit woudn't be to pleasant for a loud mouthed indie dev .

Segafan4life · Post by **Segafan4life** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:17 am

Weird speculation

But does anyone think that maybe the 2 Games will be released on the same disc?

Just a thought. They seemed linked in time to me as the 2 best Shmups cave has made post Guwange.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:35 am

Segafan4life wrote: But does anyone think that maybe the 2 Games will be released on the same disc?

No. They are listed as two separate releases.

Shmupdoctor · Post by **Shmupdoctor** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:52 am

Harlequin wrote:
Shmupdoctor wrote:This is the best gaming news I've heard in awhile. Never been prouder of being a 360 owner. To the people calling the 360 a heap of shit: It's the best tasting shit in the world right now
Typical Xbox360/Microsoft Fanboy Comment.

Microsoft feeds us shit and we love it, it tastes so GOOD, YUMMY!

Harlequin

I'm so happy that I don't give a damn what any cockmonger on the internet has to say. I love you guys.

http://www.petitiononline.com/Dtoid/petition.html
sign please!
Yeah, I know these things are pretty much useless most of the time but they do have their influences! (Bioshock, bionic commando wii)