Psikyo > Cave

[Doctor Butler]

Cave's scoring mechanics give the game more replay value.

Psikyo was still an excellent dev., but their titles just lack the longevity. Sengoku was neat, but its quirks were all aesthetic. And Strikers almost seems like it was deliberately designed to play (and even look) generic. If I'm not mistaken, the third Strikers used PowerPoint graphics.



LOOK AT THAT! LOOK AT IT! WHY!?

[LordHypnos]

While it doesn't affect score as much as a lot of scoring systems, I reckon that it would take forever to master chaining in Gunbird 2 to the extent that, for example, Godhand has (Not dropped til way into the second loop). I'd say that constitutes replay value. Not a very fun scoring system for me, but definately a challenging one for anyone. Also there's secrets (gem heads)

[moh]

Cave's scoring mechanics give the game more replay value.

Psikyo was still an excellent dev., but their titles just lack the longevity. Sengoku was neat, but its quirks were all aesthetic. And Strikers almost seems like it was deliberately designed to play (and even look) generic. If I'm not mistaken, the third Strikers used PowerPoint graphics.



LOOK AT THAT! LOOK AT IT! WHY!?

dear god

[casualcoder]

Am I the only one who can't get into chain-based scoring systems? (except Guwange which allows for a lot of creativity with bullet stalls, etc).

Am I right that the DDP games and chain-based shmups like it are basically "kill this enemy as fast, or as slow, as possible and move onto the next enemy as quickly as possible?" Unless I'm missing something that's how it feels and it seems rare that I can save my ass from a certain dropped chain by using my wits... Nonetheless it does feel like it's lacking depth and complexity unless I am missing something.

[XoPachi]

I haven't played many Psikyo games. The one I played felt very VERY cheap though. Not as polished. Not just in comparison to Cave, but Konami, Milestone, Raizing (and they are shit when it comes to visibility, but the games are still good). I can't even remember the name of the game it was I played. But it was forgettable...

My only issue with Cave is their fucking shoehorned loli fetish. Creeps me the Hell out much like Touhou. But that doesn't affect gameplay. And sometimes there's too much...stuff around the ship. Effects and whatnot just making it hard to concentrate.

[Erppo]

Psikyo games ... Not as polished

shoehorned loli fetish ... Touhou

I'm not sure which one of these is more worthy of a "What?" post.

[XoPachi]

Dunno what it was about that game, but it was stiff...

And the loli thing, that's just a person pet peeve. Don't worry about it.

[Squire Grooktook]

Only loli's I can think of in Cave is green girl (Hikari) in Soj along with Hibachi. DOJ is 2spooky and uncanny valley to be loli. Deathsmiles is the only super loli game I can think of. There are a few misc characters throughout the company that could qualify, but it's not really that wide spread. Most of the franchises staple characters and casts aren't really loli.

Touhou is not loli as far as I can tell. Isn't one of the requirements of being a "loli" that you have be underage and sexualized? Nobody in Touhou is sexualized. You might as well say that Pocky and Rocky is loli and Mega Man is shota.

[XoPachi]

Only loli's I can think of in Cave is green girl (Hikari) in Soj along with Hibachi. DOJ is 2spooky and uncanny valley to be loli. Deathsmiles is the only super loli game I can think of. There are a few misc characters throughout the company that could qualify, but it's not really that wide spread. Most of the franchises staple characters and casts aren't really loli.

Touhou is not loli as far as I can tell. Isn't one of the requirements of being a "loli" that you have be underage and sexualized? Nobody in Touhou is sexualized. You might as well say that Pocky and Rocky is loli and Mega Man is shota.

Hrm, I see. Most people I know personally refer to them as loli's like the new Hibachi, all the Touhou characters, and a few of the younger looking ones in DDP (I don't count Shuro, Marie, or Nexy). So I just ran with it. 'w`

So let's just say the emphasis on little girls personally is weird to me.

[Erppo]

To make a better post, "polished" is probably the number one adjective I'd use to describe Psikyo. Their games do one simple thing and they do it extremely well. There's clearly thought put into every detail and the games contain very little unintended weirdness.

The second part was already covered.

[XoPachi]

Just checked my DL history on my Vita to get the name. The game I was referring to was Strikers 1945 Plus. I bought it and spent about a good 2 hours total trying to get into it. Maybe it wasn't their best? Either way, I'd heard good things about it and was kinda let down. :c

[LordHypnos]

Am I the only one who can't get into chain-based scoring systems? (except Guwange which allows for a lot of creativity with bullet stalls, etc).

Am I right that the DDP games and chain-based shmups like it are basically "kill this enemy as fast, or as slow, as possible and move onto the next enemy as quickly as possible?" Unless I'm missing something that's how it feels and it seems rare that I can save my ass from a certain dropped chain by using my wits... Nonetheless it does feel like it's lacking depth and complexity unless I am missing something.

FWIW Gunbird 2 medal chaining sucks and is hard in a completely different way.

[Squire Grooktook]

Also I missed this before but wait what

Dodonpachi, esprade, guwange all have randomization in enemy attacks too, making it impossible to just remember each hole you're going to go through for each pattern => improvisation.

I've seen a bit in Guwange, EspRa.De, but I'm not fammiliar with what parts are random-ish in Dodonpachi. Is it like boss movement or enemy firing periods?

[ZacharyB]

Sometimes I wonder what Seibu or Psikyo would be releasing today if they were still around in the shmup world.

Viper Phase 2.

[kathy]

I haven't played many Psikyo games. The one I played felt very VERY cheap though.

You should check out Dragon Blaze

[kathy]

Viper Phase 2.

Personally I was holding out for Raiden Fighters Championship Edition

[Magma Dragoon]

The main problem with Psikyo is that, aside from one or other oddball like Space Bomber, all their games played exactly like Sonic Wings.

[Kollision]

I can't even justify comparing Psikyo to Cave

Psikyo only started doing something different from Sonic Wings when it was practically dying, that's too little to put against even the lesser outings from Cave.

[ACSeraph]

Just checked my DL history on my Vita to get the name. The game I was referring to was Strikers 1945 Plus. I bought it and spent about a good 2 hours total trying to get into it. Maybe it wasn't their best? Either way, I'd heard good things about it and was kinda let down. :c

I love me some Psikyo, but I got no love for 1945 Plus PSP. It's not very polished as far as Psikyo goes, and 1945 II outdoes it on the generic WWII dogfighting front in every way possible. Also Psikyo on a tiny portable screen is just genuinely hellish.

I think the super generic WWII vibe of Strikers is intentional actually, it's supposed to be contrasted by the crazy mecha bosses. If you want something with more obvious personality flare it's got to be the Sengoku games.

But Psikyo is going to be divisive on it's gameplay. I love the ultra fast brutality of it, but some people are going to just find it cheap and frustrating because it requires a lot of memorization and planning. Cave gives you a lot more freedom along with slower bullets that makes it less frustrating and therefor more widely appealing than Psikyo.

[EmperorIng]

I personally enjoy lurking in old threads. Now I get to post in them.

The main problem with Psikyo is that, aside from one or other oddball like Space Bomber, all their games played exactly like Sonic Wings.

No one denies Psikyo games are similar to one another, but you have to admit that by their later period they were producing very refined, interesting, and challenging games like Strikers 2, Gunbird 2, and Dragon Blaze. These games only in their most cursory way refer back to their Video System/Sonic Wings days.

Dodonpachi, esprade, guwange all have randomization in enemy attacks too, making it impossible to just remember each hole you're going to go through for each pattern => improvisation.

I've seen a bit in Guwange, EspRa.De, but I'm not fammiliar with what parts are random-ish in Dodonpachi. Is it like boss movement or enemy firing periods?

I assumed he meant "if you move around the screen the bullets will be coming at you from different angles!!! Totally random!"

FWIW Gunbird 2 medal chaining sucks and is hard in a completely different way.

The stages aren't designed around coin chaining though, so it can be completely bypassed for pure survival shooting.

@Doc: Have you played Dragon Blaze?

[Magma Dragoon]

The main problem with Psikyo is that, aside from one or other oddball like Space Bomber, all their games played exactly like Sonic Wings.

No one denies Psikyo games are similar to one another, but you have to admit that by their later period they were producing very refined, interesting, and challenging games like Strikers 2, Gunbird 2, and Dragon Blaze. These games only in their most cursory way refer back to their Video System/Sonic Wings days.

Certainly. I personally love Strikers II Plus and Space Bomber.

[LordHypnos]

FWIW Gunbird 2 medal chaining sucks and is hard in a completely different way.

The stages aren't designed around coin chaining though, so it can be completely bypassed for pure survival shooting.

I don't see why you couldn't just ignore the enemy chaining in DDP though. It's not like Radiant Silvergun, where you actually literally need to chain to complete the game (or so I've heard), and the same is true of most chaining systems. The only benefit for survival play would be getting extends (or in the case of, Mars Matrix and similar, weapon power ups, though you really don't need any higher than level 3 or 4 I wouldn't say in MM, which isn't too difficult. I usually end stage 1 with level 4) And for that matter, it might be beneficial to learn to chain the first couple stages of Gunbird 2 for extends, because damn is that game hard.

[Squire Grooktook]

FWIW Gunbird 2 medal chaining sucks and is hard in a completely different way.

The stages aren't designed around coin chaining though, so it can be completely bypassed for pure survival shooting.

I don't see why you couldn't just ignore the enemy chaining in DDP though.

Because insanely deep scoring systems with near oceans of optimization potential are one of the main appeals of Cave games for hardcore players.

[ACSeraph]

^I think his only point is that DDP is pretty good even when taken as a straight survival shmup. I despise chaining systems, and no matter how deep it may be I will never enjoy it enough to learn to play a chaining game for score. But I still enjoy a good round of DDP now and then.

Chaining is just too unnatural for me, rather than rewarding you for learning to use the game system to kick all the ass that could ever be kicked (Like Deathsmiles) it's just rewarding you for finding a pixel perfect path through each stage. That feels more like a puzzle game than future warfare to me, so no thank you.

Now SDOJ 360 mode on the other hand, that is a beautiful scoring system.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah I kinda relate, though earning hypers for successful chains in later games alleviates that feel for me a bit.

[chempop]

Funny how people never mention Zerogunner2 and Cannon Spike when talking about how all of Psikyo's games are all the same.

[EmperorIng]

I don't see why you couldn't just ignore the enemy chaining in DDP though.

I never said you couldn't; only that the games are designed around them. I think the recent DFK topic hints at the general tendency of Cave games being far easier if you ignore their scoring systems ("this game is easy, but absolutely murder if you play for score!" etc.). No one accuses a Psikyo game being easy under any circumstance, playing "for score" or otherwise.

I'd be hesitant of saying Cave scoring systems allow for "oceans" of optimization potential (unless that was a joke, sorry!), because from what I can observe, high-level play tends to follow a very similar path each every time (one "real" way to chain a stage, e.g. Guwange, DOJ, etc.).

Funny how people never mention Zerogunner2 and Cannon Spike when talking about how all of Psikyo's games are all the same.

Probably because they are too expensive? ha ha. I'm still waiting to find a cheap Zero Gunner 2.

Though I did neglect to bring that up; you are right. Psikyo's final two games pointed towards an interesting foray into 360 arena shooters, with Zero Gunner 2 refining a lot of the kinks and problems with Cannon Spike (which is still a good game). Their "Psikyoness" is still there, but in a really new and exciting context.

[Squire Grooktook]

I never said you couldn't; only that the games are designed around them. I think the recent DFK topic hints at the general tendency of Cave games being far easier if you ignore their scoring systems ("this game is easy, but absolutely murder if you play for score!" etc.). No one accuses a Psikyo game being easy under any circumstance, playing "for score" or otherwise.

I'm not sure I would call Ketsui or SOJ easy for survival on any account. And of course 2 loop games blur the line a bit since they are a truly difficult survival challenge but require some scoring and whatnot to unlock.

I'd be hesitant of saying Cave scoring systems allow for "oceans" of optimization potential (unless that was a joke, sorry!), because from what I can observe, high-level play tends to follow a very similar path each every time (one "real" way to chain a stage, e.g. Guwange, DOJ, etc.).

It's not about following a different route, but more that the games have near limitless room for self improvement in the scoring department.

[God]

It's not like Radiant Silvergun, where you actually literally need to chain to complete the game (or so I've heard)

That's a myth as far as I can tell. 100%ing the bosses will give you the most points for the least effort and that alone will give you adequate weapons.

I can do fairly well on easy, and I only have a vague idea how the chaining system works. ...I should probably work that out at some point.

[Illyrian]

Their games do one simple thing and they do it extremely well.

By that do you mean having the exact same scoring system every time, and always relying on bullet patterns of 5 bullets flying at you so fast you either know exactly where to be to dodge them or get killed because your hitbox is ludicrously massive for the attacks you face? Until you hit stage 5 of course, when the game starts launching those same 5 bullet patterns interspersed with massive clouds of bullets your hitbox doesn't allow you to dodge through.

It's the worst kind of unimaginative memoriser garbage. Except that the games often have their first 4 levels shuffled to prevent you from memorising a set path, and ensuring you have to learn 4 lvl 4 bosses.

Cave good
Raizing good
Many other companies good
Psikyo BAAAAAAAAAAAAD