5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[Ceph]

Mods, would you mind splitting this thread (or simply deleting all OT posts)?

Thanks!

[j^aws]

...
Are you familiar with humility?

Yes.

You still failed to ansewr my question. It's IMPORTANT to MY THEORY. Humility isn't.

Imagine just an XY plane, and at any point in time your character can reach any point on that XY plane, and tell me if you have,

A) ...a jetpac in Quartet, everything is satisfied? Yes/ NO

B) ....no jetpac in Quartet, everything is satisfied? Yes/ NO

C)...if Metal Slug is satisfied? Yes/ NO

So Metal Slug is not a shmup because the avatar cannot reach any point in that XY plane, in your opinion? Except it's a flawed answer... Metal Slug isn't a shmup for a bunch of other factors, and you before conceded that due to obstacles you can't access to the whole plane in shmups as well... It's all to evident that you're definition criteria isn't refined enough, in this case I might argue it's wrong (since being able to reach any point on a plane is not what defines a shmup).

Imho, what you fail to realize is (and Rob wrote this before) that geometrical definitions do makea fine boundary but cannot be the only defining criteria.
Since 99% of the whole videogames involve shooting at something, and since the vast majority of the up-to-'90s titles are set into an XY two-dimensional plane, by your logic Gauntlet would be a shmup. Link with a powered up sword / bow and arrows would be a shmup.

Technical discussion on the internet is SHIT.

I'm trying to show you a different point of view. Now can you answer my original questions, because you're assuming stuff I haven't said and confusing the discussion. Please.

[LSU]

So, is Under Defeat getting any votes? It's been a year, the verdict should be in by now.

And although it's pretty new, what about Trigger Heart Exelica?

Under Defeat made it into my top 25 vote - quite high up on the list - I absolutely love it. It is maybe just a tad on the easy side at default setting but the second loop is always there to intimidate you once you clear the first. It's definitely a very 'straightforward' game (simple scoring, no really new gameplay hooks or gimmicks) but I kind of find that refreshing for a modern shmup, and of course the production values are just so high.

I haven't spent nearly enough time with Trigger Heart yet to be able to consider it seriously, but still I very much doubt it would fit into my top 25 even next year. It's good, but not a classic IMHO. Plus there are still too many other games that I couldn't quite fit in this year (Hyper Duel, Blast Wind, TFIII, the original Gradius, Soldier Blade, Sonic Wings 3 and Special... all hovering around the #30 mark for me, just clammering over each other to try to make it in).

[Turrican]

Zaxxon isn't really an exception, nor other isometric shmups like Viewpoint, IMO.

For Zaxxon, the "camera" is 'decoupled' from the "gameworld" and rotated to give a sense of perspective and 3D, yet the gameworld and "character movement" still remain in 2D (but still overlap)...

- Zaxxon: camera = 3D, gameworld = 2D, character = 2D

Dear Mr. "I hold a Masters",

I thought I should explain below why I dare to say that your General Theory is quite confused. I hope my objection doesn't sound too unrespectful of your greatness.



Here is a shmup.

1) The avatar, its bullets, and the enemies are all on the same surface, an XY plane.

2) The XY plane can be visualized in a variety of perspectives, all of which are not an issue to define the genre. From left to right, here's a classic overhead perspective (Xevious), an isometric one (Viewpoint), a folded one (Tempest, here depicted isometric to better describe the folded plane; also forgive the minor error of depicting two axes of movement for the ship), and cylindric (Defender, Fantasy Zone).



And here is Zaxxon. You'll be undoubtedly delighted to recognize that you move your avatar along an XY plane (inclined in the game, but not in the picture above for the sake of clarity), you shoot bullets along the vector Z, to destroy enemies located on x'y' plane.

To use your own very questionable terminology, Zaxxon is a "gameworld" 3D.

The reason why, until now, these games have not been considered inside the shmup subgenre of shooting games is because you have to "line" your avatar with enemies on another plane in order to shoot them down, and this calculation implies a loss of intuition and usually accuracy. A better explanation is that these kind of games just play and feel different from "shmups". Is this difference noticeable and important enough to justify a separation between the two? Yes, imho, because in all the subgenres in the shooting game family are distiguished by subtle yet significant differences.

Next Lesson: "Why yours truly believes case A to be more accurate than case B"

Case A:


Case B (our actual voting rules, which I nonetheless respect):


P.S. I hope the many illiterate among us will get a benefit from the explanatory pics, but please don't be offended by them; they are not meant for you, most wise among the wise.

@everyone else in this thread: apologies. I know I'm fueling this stuff, but at least I hope you can laugh at my awesome pencil skills

[j^aws]

Zaxxon isn't really an exception, nor other isometric shmups like Viewpoint, IMO.

For Zaxxon, the "camera" is 'decoupled' from the "gameworld" and rotated to give a sense of perspective and 3D, yet the gameworld and "character movement" still remain in 2D (but still overlap)...

- Zaxxon: camera = 3D, gameworld = 2D, character = 2D

Dear Mr. "I hold a Masters",

,<SNIP>

YOU STILL LACK READING SKILLS.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 687#219687

AGAIN, you quoted the WRONG quote.

How many times do I have to ask you to follow the thread?

[The Coop]

[Rob]

I like the drawings.

[Turrican]

Typo update for Zaxxon:

- Zaxxon: camera = 3D, gameworld = 2D*, character = 3D

* I'll elaborate later...

Ah Ah, a "typo", nice try.

And you're still amazingly wrong: the avatar movement ("character") is still 2D despite it doesn't seem to be.

And by this time you should've understood that your "camera" criteria just makes no sense.

P.S. don't suggest other people what to quote and how; it's very rude.

[Super Laydock]

So, is Under Defeat getting any votes? It's been a year, the verdict should be in by now.

No doubt it´ll get at least some votes, though I´d be VERY surprised if this ends up in the overall top 25.

It´s definitely not in my top 25.

And although it's pretty new, what about Trigger Heart Exelica?

This one still isn´t clicking with me. So far I am happier with the soundtrack cd than with the game itself (must admit I haven´t put decent time in it yet though...).

Last Hope is my fave so far of the latest 3 DC shmup releases, but no top 25 material by any means. Though I am certain some people will put it in their list (if only because they haven´t yet played 25 different shmups so far).

[j^aws]

Typo update for Zaxxon:

- Zaxxon: camera = 3D, gameworld = 2D*, character = 3D

* I'll elaborate later...

Ah Ah, a "typo", nice try.

And you're still amazingly wrong: the avatar movement ("character") is still 2D despite it doesn't seem to be.

And by this time you should've understood that your "camera" criteria just makes no sense.

P.S. don't suggest other people what to quote and how; it's very rude.

I'm trying to get someone to grasp my point of view on a technical level. I've given you enough chances. No offence, but you lack the basic skills to take this discussion forward.

@MODS

I'm finished with this discussion, unless an admin/ mod/ someone else/ want's to discuss it further, either via a PM or this thread or otherwise. Thanks.

[Rob]

No offence, but you lack the basic skills to take this discussion forward.

No offense, but lol.

[j^aws]

No offence, but you lack the basic skills to take this discussion forward.

No offense, but lol.

Yeah, lack of reading skills is a discussion killer!

[Rob]

New sig.

[j^aws]

New sig.

I like it!

You know, if Mendeleev was alive today, he'd be shmup fan!

[The Coop]

So, is Under Defeat getting any votes? It's been a year, the verdict should be in by now.

It was #3 on my list (TF4 is #1). I haven't played a new shmup that enjoyable and fun to both watch and play in a while. It's definitely in the running for my favorite DC shmup, along with Border Down and possibly Giga Wing 2.

[Rob]

To change the subject for maybe a few posts...

To quote the voting thread:

as a general guideline: voters should be familiar with nearly all (95+%) of the games on previous years' top 25 lists. Furthermore, they should be equally familiar with nearly as many (90+%) of the shmups on previous years' honorable mention lists. And, to the extent that other games voters have listed are available, would-be voters should be familiar with 50%-65+% of those games, as well.

Are you truly qualified?

I have played maybe 2-3 doujin shooters, briefly. Luckily no one votes for them. Early-mid 80s shooters, largely ignorant of. Again, not many votes thrown their way, but another large blind spot. Maybe for most of the board.

So, have you never even played an R-Type? A Cave game?

[The Coop]

To change the subject for maybe a few posts...

To quote the voting thread:

as a general guideline: voters should be familiar with nearly all (95+%) of the games on previous years' top 25 lists. Furthermore, they should be equally familiar with nearly as many (90+%) of the shmups on previous years' honorable mention lists. And, to the extent that other games voters have listed are available, would-be voters should be familiar with 50%-65+% of those games, as well.

Are you truly qualified?

I have played maybe 2-3 doujin shooters, briefly. Luckily no one votes for them. Early-mid 80s shooters, largely ignorant of. Again, not many votes thrown their way, but another large blind spot. Maybe for most of the board.

So, have you never even played an R-Type? A Cave game?

Um, who?

[Rob]

Do you mean the quote? That'd be Zach.

[The Coop]

Oops. I meant, who are you addressing with your post? Or is that just a general question being thrown out to everyone following the drama?

[Ceph]

I have played maybe 2-3 doujin shooters, briefly.

That reminds me: I downloaded and played Cho Ren Sha 68K for Windows for the first time this week. If a doujin deserved to be among the top 25 it would be this.

http://www2.tky.3web.ne.jp/~yosshin/my_ ... nload.html

[Rob]

^thanks, I just downloaded Parsec 47 the other day, too.

Oops. I meant, who are you addressing with your post? Or is that just a general question being thrown out to everyone following the drama?

Unrelated to drama, anyone.

[Turrican]

I did calculate my statistics on the 3rd annual poll charts - although I didn't vote back then, I was slightly above the required percentage.

The problem is, I am quite late with the newest releases, so if I'd calculate them now I'm not sure I'd reach the requirements.

I don't feel too ashamed saying so, as I thought the debate ended the previous years with the conclusion that a lot of voters couldn't possibly be that experienced, but no action whatsoever was taken to limit the voters...

[cigsthecat]

Awesome drawings Turrican.

(also, new avatar)

[Veracity]

@Turrican: please populate a shooter with the enemies from your drawings and release it - I will most certainly buy it.

In addition to the 90%+ requirement, I'm sure I've seen reference to expecting voters ideally to be familiar with several hundred shmups (possibly from an earlier year's poll, though). I don't personally have anything like the specific enthusiasm for this genre to qualify for voting here, but that strikes me as a fairly unrealistic expectation even of someone who does. Across all genres, I've been playing video games in one format or another for pushing thirty years, still devote a reasonably unhealthy amount of time to them, and I doubt I could easily name more than around 100 I've played, much less recall well enough to compare their relative merits.

Has anyone ever attempted a poll (of the top 25 voters or otherwise) to find out how many shooters members consider themselves familiar with? Might be vaguely interesting. Or it might just spark much debate over how much experience and understanding of a game constitutes 'familiarity', I dunno.

[j^aws]

For the record, I just had a quick spin on Zaxxon. Your ship movement is 2D, the game auto scrolls in X-axis, and you have height movement, making it 3D.

Technically it's 3-3-2, but my case for it is still 3-2*-3 for the record.

* will explain it someday....

--------------------

RE: PC games, anyone ever get The Reap working with a joypad in Win XP? I don't like using the keyboard and I'm sure I'd like it alot more, even enough to vote for it...

Edit: some clarifications.

Edit 2: keep typing 3-3-3 (quake on my mind!), when I mean 3-3-2, technically.

[cigsthecat]

RE: PC games, anyone ever get The Reap working with a joypad in Win XP? I don't like using the keyboard and I'm sure I'd like it alot more, even enough to vote for it...

http://www.electracode.com/4/joy2key/Jo ... ersion.htm

[j^aws]

RE: PC games, anyone ever get The Reap working with a joypad in Win XP? I don't like using the keyboard and I'm sure I'd like it alot more, even enough to vote for it...

http://www.electracode.com/4/joy2key/Jo ... ersion.htm

Cool! I'll give it a spin... I've got something similar that came with my Saitek, but the diagonals are nearly always 'sticky', making it unplayable...

[Rob]

Or it might just spark much debate over how much experience and understanding of a game constitutes 'familiarity', I dunno.

More than likely.

[Turrican]

@ Rob, cigsthecat, veracity: thank you for your appreciation! I drew this one for you guys:

"The Wonderful Journey of Issun into the Origins of Shmups" Part 1 of 3



I hope you like it - soon the second part of the story ^_^

[Rob]

Anti-Spacewar propaganda!

(can you make the next image maybe 30% bigger?)