XRGB-3

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IDA
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by IDA »

kamiboy wrote: Yes, well, eBay is alway an option, if you don't mind waiting two weeks for your item to arrive, because that is how long it takes me to get anything I buy from there. But before we go that far let me try and understand the scenarios a little better, then at least I can diagnose similar problems better in the future.
It was a quick example, you can encounter these on hardware or electricity stores everywhere.
kamiboy wrote: Then there is disconnected grounds. Now, this one I cannot figure out, I don't know much about electronics, I don't even know what the use of grounds are. Perhaps you could walk me through what the purpose of these grounds are in the scart and how they can cause buzzing, and if they indeed are to blame, how I would go about fixing them.
Voltages are always measured between two points. Grounds represent the 0V reference of a signal. They also can close electric circuits so that charges can circulate indefinitely.
kamiboy wrote: Looking at SCART digagrams I seem to see a supposed line going from the metal socket head connecting together several of the pins. I figure this is what is meant by ground connections to the chassis. I doubt all these connections are supposed to be made manually, as in via a wire, because I have never seen such a thing inside any SCART head, so I assume there is some sort of internal connection between these.
The chassis ground is a safety ground, and it is not always connected. If you have a conductor connected to earth around the cable it would discharge any high voltage to ground and trip the electric breakers.
kamiboy wrote: I've notticed that the ends of some unused pins are filled with some sort of solder like filling, where as some are left hollow. Are these fillings what causes the ground connection to happen?
Is preapplied solder in the connector and if there is no cable soldered it has no effect.
kamiboy wrote: But for starters talk me through a scenario where grounds are at fault. Let us pretend I bought a multimeter and two weeks have passed and I have it. What would I do to measure if anything is wrong? The connection between two pins in the had? Perhaps, say, pin 4 (Audio GND) and pin 1 (Audio R)?
As I said before, to measure a voltage you need two points, and if you don't connect the ground the readings are incorrect (they usually depend on the measuring circuit). In the case of audio they manifest as buzzing and in video it can invert the video.
If two electronic devices don't agree in the ground (roughly, their grounds are not connected) you have a problem. This is very simplified, there are different types of ground to consider (for example, there is a ground pin in your wall socket.
kamiboy wrote: Or would it be between a pin in the din connector and one in the head? Say I do the measurement and something is off, what would I then have to do to fix it? I would appreciate any one walking me through this.
To detect unconnected grounds you can test with the ohmnimeter between corresponding ground leads in the cable ends. If the resistance is not 0, you hace a unconnected ground or a broken cable. The solution would be to solder a cable connecting both.
In the case of SCART cables, you can usually connect all the different grounds togheter, but it is better if each has a cable.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by kamiboy »

IDA wrote:It was a quick example, you can encounter these on hardware or electricity stores everywhere.
No, no, that was the correct example. The reason why I said I cannot get one is because I know of no local place selling such things, so eBay and weeks of waiting was my only alternative.
IDA wrote:To detect unconnected grounds you can test with the ohmnimeter between corresponding ground leads in the cable ends. If the resistance is not 0, you hace a unconnected ground or a broken cable. The solution would be to solder a cable connecting both.
In the case of SCART cables, you can usually connect all the different grounds togheter, but it is better if each has a cable.
So, let me get this right, I find two ground pins in the head, and measure the resistance between them with the ohmnimeter, and if the reader does not read 0 then I should connect them via a cable, correct? And I should do this for all ground pins, as in pins 4, 5, 9, 13, 17, 18.

It is good to know for future problems, but in this case I am going to get some first party Saturn cables once I confirm the problem is ground connections.
Last edited by kamiboy on Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BuckoA51
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

I'm curious as to what exactly happens if you connect both the DVI and VGA outputs to the XRGB-3 at once, has anyone actually tried this? Does one output override another or does it basically just not work? The reason I ask is that I'd really like to experiment with B0 mode from time to time, but I will mostly be using B1 mode and basically I want to keep cable swapping to a minimum.

If I attached something like this for example http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DVI-MALE-HDMI-FEM ... 53e3f1a373 could I just disconnect the HDMI lead and leave the adaptor in the back of the XRGB (this minimising wear and tear on the actual XRGB) or does the DVI socket have to be completely 'naked' when using the VGA output?
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IDA
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by IDA »

kamiboy wrote: So, let me get this right, I find two ground pins in the head, and measure the resistance between them with the ohmnimeter, and if the reader does not read 0 then I should connect them via a cable, correct? And I should do this for all ground pins, as in pins 4, 5, 9, 13, 17, 18.
Grounds on each end of the cable can be either connected or disconected (for example, audio ground might be connected to red ground on the scart socket or disconnected from each other). What you have to check if every ground on the scart end is connected to a ground in the end you plug in the console. If you see some ground pins in the SCART connector with no cable attached inside they are not connected.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by kamiboy »

It is a sad day for the soceity. Today I received my VGA/Component to HDMI upscaler. As expected it resolved my screen stability issues. However, in ordering it I did oversee one little problem, aspect ratio. Unlike my old Plasma TV that allowed me to shrink and stretch the screen at leisure my LCD locks me into 16:9 on 720P.

Well, that is another bag of gold wasted, one in a long line. I'd be sorry but I have sort of fallen in love with the image that I am getting from that tiny CRT. I don't think I can go back to LCD regardless of image stability knowing how much better CRT looks. It makes me want to do setting crazy like save up for a candy cab and stick my consoles in it.

On a completely unrelated note, anyone in the market for a VGA/Component to HDMI scaler? 40 dollars shipped? Only used once for about 10 minutes, good as new.
Last edited by kamiboy on Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

Today I received my VGA/Component to HDMI upscaler
is the output locked to 720p regardless of the input resolution ?? 480p output should allow you to switch the aspect ratio regardless of the TV in use.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

The reason I ask is that I'd really like to experiment with B0 mode from time to time, but I will mostly be using B1 mode and basically I want to keep cable swapping to a minimum.
any reason why you don't simply stay at VGA for both B0 and B1 ??
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by kamiboy »

Fudoh wrote:
Today I received my VGA/Component to HDMI upscaler
is the output locked to 720p regardless of the input resolution ?? 480p output should allow you to switch the aspect ratio regardless of the TV in use.
It seems that it is locked to 720p, due, as the eBay item description claims, to obtaining the best compatibility. The box is plug and play, the only interactive element on the unit is a switch that chooses between the RGB and YUV inputs.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

BuckoA51 wrote: If I attached something like this for example http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DVI-MALE-HDMI-FEM ... 53e3f1a373 could I just disconnect the HDMI lead and leave the adaptor in the back of the XRGB (this minimising wear and tear on the actual XRGB) or does the DVI socket have to be completely 'naked' when using the VGA output?
You have the right idea. When both cables are connected to your TV the XRGB-3 chooses the DVI out over the VGA out. Simply disconnect the DVI to HDMI cable on the TV end or the XRGB end and it will default to VGA. I have done this when i just got my XRGB-3 and it worked fine. Remember to turn the unit off before switching cables, just in case :)
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BuckoA51
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

Fudoh wrote:any reason why you don't simply stay at VGA for both B0 and B1 ??
On your excellent website you state "While the VGA output has pretty good quality, the DVI-D output is bit sharper especially for higher resolutions.". Might as well have "bit sharper" if it's possible.

Thanks Konsolkongen for your advice once again this community is extremely helpful. The XRGB Wiki should be updated with this info, well it is a Wiki so I could do it myself once I've tried it :)
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RGB32E
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by RGB32E »

BuckoA51 wrote:On your excellent website you state "While the VGA output has pretty good quality, the DVI-D output is bit sharper especially for higher resolutions.". Might as well have "bit sharper" if it's possible.
The digital output for B0 mode is slightly sharper than the analog output. This isn't anything different than say choosing DVI-D output from a PC video card over analog output (i.e. VGA).

In respect to the XRGB-3, VGA output is more versatile than DVI-D as it allows for easy switching between B0 and B1 modes (B1 does not output via DVI-D). Analog output from the XRGB-3 looks virtually identical to digitial, but it really depends upon the quality of VGA cable and the quality (performance) of the analog VGA input on the display of choice. For me, the VGA input on my TV performs extremely well at 1080p (no ringing or other notable artifacts - clean), and doesn't work at 1080p via DVI-D (DVI-D to HDMI cable). Hence, the main reason to use DVI-D output from the XRGB-3 is if you're using B0 mode to scale to your panel's native resolution, and you do not encounter any incompatiblity issues! :)

Another thing to note about using the analog/digital output from the XRGB is to ensure that your TVs geometry (screen/ect) settings are correct - no over scanning. Use the boarder functionality to make sure that the signal is centered on your TV.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

Well DVI to HDMI converters aren't exactly expensive so I'll give it a go. My TV was going to be a Sony-KDL-40Z4500. Took delivery of it yesterday, it lasted all of 10 minutes before flickering and dying on me :(
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trunk
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by trunk »

kamiboy wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
Today I received my VGA/Component to HDMI upscaler
is the output locked to 720p regardless of the input resolution ?? 480p output should allow you to switch the aspect ratio regardless of the TV in use.
It seems that it is locked to 720p, due, as the eBay item description claims, to obtaining the best compatibility. The box is plug and play, the only interactive element on the unit is a switch that chooses between the RGB and YUV inputs.
That's a bummer. Sounds like the dvdo edge is what you need, or what about going with the cheaper version that I have? It only outputs 480p which should allow your tv to change the aspect ratio.

I fixed my bright image and annoying humming sound on my GEN/MD SCART cable this weekend :)

I opened up the cable and found the following things missing:

-220uF Capacitors on r,g,b lines
-75Ohm Resistors on r,g,b lines
-Pins 5,9,13,21 NOT grounded

So I went ahead and put in the ground wires and the RC combo on RGB and it all worked on the first try :lol: I did cut open the SCART case on the back because the 3 220uF Caps were too big to fit in the casing.
The picture brightness is now correct and there is no humming at all (cable works great!) :mrgreen:

The hardest part was getting the pins out of the SCART connector it hurts my thumb now. Any good tips on getting SCART pins out of the casing? I'm making another SCART2JRGB cable(please save my fingers). I know they have the small tab that needs to be pushed down first and then slide the pin out but some cables seem easier to pop out than others.
Current Setup:

720P------------------------v
240P->XRGB-3->Edge->4x2 matrix->DLP HDTV
480i/P->YPbPrselect-^ . . ^ . . V-->hdmi2vga->Super Emotia->Tate CRT SDTV
PC->vga2hdmi-------------^
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ShutokouBattle
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by ShutokouBattle »

Do both the Model 1 and Model 2 Genesis have RGB capability, or just the Model 2?
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by gundamalpha »

Both capable of RGB display
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by kamiboy »

trunk wrote:I opened up the cable and found the following things missing:

-220uF Capacitors on r,g,b lines
-75Ohm Resistors on r,g,b lines
-Pins 5,9,13,21 NOT grounded
Indeed, that is what I feared. when I took a gander inside of mine when people suggested it I found the same thing, no grounds and only one resistor present between two pins. I thought maybe not all of these were required, but didn't know which exactly. You went ahead and connected them all did you, kudos, but I am not going to bother with that much work. Rather I have now gone about securing first party cables for my SNES, Saturn and PSX. My custom genesis cables have very good picture quality so I think I will just use those as is as I do not think the genesis ever had first party RGB cables to begin with.

I finished Dracula X so I have retired my Saturn for now. It will likely be in the area of a month before my cables arrive, so I'll report back then.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Ganelon »

lalilulelo wrote:Do both the Model 1 and Model 2 Genesis have RGB capability, or just the Model 2?
They use different connections though so make sure you get the right cable. Additionally, if you want stereo on an MD1, you have to source the sound from the headphone port.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

MY XRGB-3 WORKS AGAIN!!

Image

It was the Panasonic AA15865AA chip that was fried. Micomsoft suspects static electricity.

Removing the old one:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1287517541

New one installed:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1287517541

I didn't have any flux or the proper soldering iron tip but it turned out pretty nice anyway. The greasey stuff is Lötlack SK10 that supposedly should protect the soldering (i have never used it before, but it hasn't fucked anything up...).

I have tested these inputs: GAME IN, D1, D2 in all modes, D3, S1 and S2 and all works perfectly. I haven't checked with composite but to be honest i don't really give a shit :D

A very big thank you goes out to Katsuhiro Matsushita at Micomsoft who has been very helpful through the whole process! What a great guy :D

Scanlines in my face:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1287517959
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

Amazing work and congratulations!
This is likely something which most of the XRGB owners wouldn't have tried on their own.

What did you end up paying for the replacement chip ?
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

60$ for 4 chips incl FedEx (it was actually the cheapest shippin) from digikey. Expensive to say the least but still a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a new XRGB :)
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by kamiboy »

By the by, anyone interested in first party RGB21 cables for the SEGA Saturn and PlayStation? Looks like I may end up with an extra of each after all is said and done.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by jugu »

kamiboy wrote:By the by, anyone interested in first party RGB21 cables for the SEGA Saturn and PlayStation? Looks like I may end up with an extra of each after all is said and done.
I might be interested. I'll shoot you a PM.
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RGB32E
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by RGB32E »

Konsolkongen wrote:MY XRGB-3 WORKS AGAIN!!

It was the Panasonic AN15865AA chip that was fried. Micomsoft suspects static electricity.
...
A very big thank you goes out to Katsuhiro Matsushita at Micomsoft who has been very helpful through the whole process! What a great guy :D
Congrats on restoring your XRGB-3 to functional status! :) Replacing the RGB encoder in one of my Saturns was tricky (Fujitsu-> Sony CXA), but this takes the cake! :shock: 8)
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

RGB32E wrote: Congrats on restoring your XRGB-3 to functional status! :) Replacing the RGB encoder in one of my Saturns was tricky (Fujitsu-> Sony CXA), but this takes the cake! :shock: 8)
I can't imagine replacing something like that on a Saturn would be much easier. There is very little space around pretty much all the chips on the Saturn MB. Remind me, what was the purpose of replacing the RGB encoder. To eliminate jailbars?
Sargon
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Sargon »

Fudoh wrote:
Is there any way to correct the horizontal shift in B1 mode?
no, but you can use a real cheap RGB Interface between the XRGB's output and the TV to correct this. Anything from Extron with a knob for horizontal picture shift works fine and the older ones can be found for a few $$ on ebay.
I bought an Extron 109xi for $5 on eBay and received it today. It works perfectly with no noticeable lag! My setup is now XRGB-3 B1 mode to 109xi, then through an RGB to VGA cable to a 9A60 outputting component to my TV. This was way more expensive and complicated than I initially expected, but I'm happy with the end result. Thanks for all the advice!
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

I've just upgraded my old Hitachi plasma to a Sony KDL-40Z4500. The new set is nice so far but much less intolerant to non-standard signals through VGA. Believe it or not my old Hitachi would display crazy stuff like 1600x1200 through VGA no problem (though it looked horrible) and would show PAL and NTSC through the XRGB.

Now on the new set I can't get a stable picture with the PC Engine (Supergrafx 2 RGB modded with colour booster) no matter what I set the AFC to. I hear the only real solution for that is to try and find a X-Connect D4?, but I can't find one anywhere.

Also, I am looking to upgrade my cheap 3rd party SNES Scart cable but something in the back of my mind says that the SCART cables for European SNES's are different to those for Japanese SNES's. My SNES is a PAL model with a NTSC switch mod and I'm having some troubles getting a stable picture with the crappy cable I have. Anyone know where I can get a decent cable? I suck at soldering like you wouldn't believe and I'd be happy to pay someone in the UK who can make up good quality cables.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

BuckoA51 wrote: Now on the new set I can't get a stable picture with the PC Engine (Supergrafx 2 RGB modded with colour booster) no matter what I set the AFC to. I hear the only real solution for that is to try and find a X-Connect D4?, but I can't find one anywhere.
I'm looking for one too but haven't been able to find any either... :/ I'm thinking about buying one of those NeoBits or similar Neo Geo RGB to Component converters instead. I know the output is supposed to be a bit worse than the input, but if it works it's better than nothing :) I'm having sync problems with my Neo Geo MVS and Master System, works fine in B0 mode but not in B1.
Also, I am looking to upgrade my cheap 3rd party SNES Scart cable but something in the back of my mind says that the SCART cables for European SNES's are different to those for Japanese SNES's. My SNES is a PAL model with a NTSC switch mod and I'm having some troubles getting a stable picture with the crappy cable I have. Anyone know where I can get a decent cable? I suck at soldering like you wouldn't believe and I'd be happy to pay someone in the UK who can make up good quality cables.
Get the original Japanese RGB cable it's very good quality!

The AV out of the SNES is a little different on a PAL and NTSC console but nothing that matters in this case.
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

I just checked with a multimeter and the Japanese cable uses composite video as sync, so don't worry about the Sync/12V stuff :)
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

Thanks again Konsolkongen I'll look for a Jap RGB cable. Yeah the X-Connect D4 has vanished, even Amazon JP don't have them in stock, I think Micomsoft stopped making them.

The more I use the XRGB-3 with my new Sony the more I despair :( No 1080p support on the VGA or the HDMI, "Unsupported Signal" all the time from VGA and HDMI. I thought I could pass through my Dreamcast in B1 mode to save having a VGA switch, no such luck, "unsupported signal". Could use it in B0 I guess but I don't want the lag especially considering the XRGB-3 is not able to scale it to anything useful. Seems the more modern your display is the more the XRGB-3 struggles to work with it.

The XRGB-3 sure is a quirky little thing! I am glad I have a DVDO Edge on order for my 480i/p content, for me B0 mode is really kinda useless. I hope Micomsoft address the problems in their next scaler, it's incredibly frustrating knowing that the XRGB-3 CAN do something but due to a design fault it won't on my new TV. Though I rather suspect for future XRGB models the B1 mode will be dropped and we'll get something more akin to the DVDO Edge. Still, I guess that is all speculation.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

I'm sorry to hear about your new TV having problems with the XRGB too. Especially if you bought it mainly to resolve the issues the old one had :(

Should everything else fail and you have the money to spare i would suggest you get yourself a Gefen VGA to DVI scaler plus. It just works and correctly displays the 720x480p resolution from XRGB in B1 and Dreamcast VGA, none of my other scalers/TV's has been able to do that. I haven't used it with B0 mode much but from what i can tell it works very well. Might not work with all resolutions with the V-sync on but the B1 mode works flawlessly and it upscales it pretty nicely to 1080p too. That should assure total compatibility with most (all?) newer TV sets.

Only downside is that it doesn't understand the XRGB-3 output when using Master System or Neo Geo, but to be fair my old Sony TV had the exact same problems. Everything else seems to work fine. Also if you are in PAL territory the Gefen will even accept 50Hz from the XRGB-3 in B1 mode. The Gefen's output should then be set to 1080p50Hz for a stutter (spelled studder?) free picture. That's pretty neat although 60Hz should be chosen when ever possible.
Last edited by Konsolkongen on Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

I thought I could pass through my Dreamcast in B1 mode to save having a VGA switch, no such luck, "unsupported signal"
this should work if you use the passthrough VGA input on the right side of the back, not the processed VGA input on the left.

Micomsoft has actually stopped producing the XSelect-D4 some years ago already. It's not too hard to find one on Yahoo auctions though.

For your PCE problem: what do you see that you can't fix with the AFC level ? Can you provide a digicam shot ? You don't need a XSelect to fix the PCE's signal. I use a sync stripper instead (RGBs input, RGBHV 15khz output) and it works great.
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