Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[CIT]

Hehehe, when I was a kid I put all the boxes away in a closet so that the other kids couldn't get their grubby hands on them and mess them up. I still have a number of mint condition games from way back in the day. My mom threw out all my Club Nintendo magazines though.

As far as I'm concerned, video game collecting is basically just collecting paper, cuz the packaging and instructions is the only thing you can't easily have access to. I'm pretty sure the whole retro market is in a bubble right now and prices will go down a little bit eventually. Probably not to 2006 levels, but not as high as currently.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I'm surprised a solution hasn't surfaced for playing Game Gear games on the Master System. From what I understand the GG is basically a modded SMS with a larger color pallet and a smaller resolution.....you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to come up with something that works. Maybe it just doesn't have as big of a projected market for someone like Tim Worthington to feel like they want to dump time into developing it.

I've seen a few TV-output mods, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. Been brainstorming a design for 3D printing a new case/shell and making it a fully consolized Game Gear with a controller port and everything.....might be kinda cool!

I'll have to check out the GB Bionic Commando, I rather enjoy the NES version. Gameboy can be fun to collect for since it isn't as expensive as some other systems. I agree there aren't a ton of "must-have" original GB titles, but the few that are out there are great!

From what I recall, the palette difference is not a trivial matter and I think resolution is an issue too. It's been done on a game by game basis though, a few GG titles have had ROM patches released so that they can run on an SMS (have a nose over on SMS Power). Some of the later Brazil exclusives are actually GG quickie ports, Sonic Blast for one.

[Dangerous_D]

Ninja Gaiden, now that's a Game on the NES like more I miss playing

[Sumez]

Wat?

[Ed Oscuro]

I miss more NES. I need them.

[Sumez]

Goku Makaimura

While pressing on with Choh (with an H) on SNES in the little spare time I have after work, my daily commute gives me a little time every day to experiment with Goku on the PSP.

My first meeting with this game left me very disappointed. I hated the item collection, multiple hitpoints, instant respawning and everything else that just didn't feel like classic Makaimura.
When I heard about Kai, I immediately bought that version and was quite pleased with the alterations, believing it would please me. That said, it still didn't really click. The abundance of awkward secret hunting from the original release remains, even though 90% of it it technically pointless, including varieties of shields with no purpose, and armors that do almost nothing. The controls also felt somewhat off, and the game ultimately felt way too difficult in all the wrong ways.

Now I've picked it back up and decided to give it another try - it worked for Contra 4, which I now absolutely love, so why not this.
That said, I still think it has most of the same problems mentioned above. I can spend ages getting absolutely nowhere on a stage until I end up just darting off and jumping over every enemy rather than taking up the fight. Controls are extremely marred by the fact that the game technically runs in 3D space and the depth in the graphics making it really difficult to understand hitboxes. This is a pretty common issue with many 2.5D games, and only very few games ever got it right (Link Between Worlds is one good example). Add extremely messy graphics with a chaotic mix of colors and an abundance of pointless particle effects on top of this.

Attack timing is weird, and when a jump occasionally gets cancelled by your attack animation, that's just plain bad design. Whenever I jump over enemies attacking downwards, I just pray that my attacks actually connect rather than relying on my own skill - that's as far from Daimakaimura as you can possibly get.
The level design is mostly fun and creative, but also full of trial-and-error challenges to a degree that no other game in the series comes even close to. Many stage hazards and elements don't feel appropriate for this kind of game, and many of them not for any game. I can't remember any instance of changing winds that pushes the player back ever doing anything good for any game (see: Ninja Gaiden II), and ditto for terribly slow repetitive autoscrollers that wrap back across distances already travelled.

In general, the basic elements of a Makaimura game is here, but somehow the game also seems to possess absolutely nothing of what actually made the three original games so ingenious.

Am I just totally off here?

[BIL]

Ninja Gaiden, now that's a Game on the NES like more I miss playing

Fire up TEH ROMZ and get playing once more, the task force is hiring!

Am I just totally off here?

Yes, you are dead wrong about The Ninja Gaiden II's windy stage. >:3

No for real the mandatory wait at the first pit sucks diiick, but the second floor's race to make it over the big gap without breaking stride is really cool and the stage would be lessened without it. ¦3

Animated GIF "Ninja Ryukenden II: Ankoku no NITROUS BOOST"

Spoiler

U SEE THEM SKIIILZ >83

Cauterise the pit! battle up the stairs! and then, I liek it when u HIT TEH BOOST. One of my favourite little 1337 setpieces to pull off, especially while grabbing the ammo maxup! There is also an extend but PFFF. (I don't speedrun but I do enjoy cutting out dead time wherever possible)

[Sumez]

U SEE THEM SKIIILZ >83

I see them trial-and-error pattern knowledge!

[BIL]

Yeah but it's challenging to execute (only frames to spare on unTASlike movement, and one slip is death - even that opening wallclimb can sink you!), and it looks+feels fuckin rad. Preeetty quality static action imo!

Anyway, the point is you should git gud like me instead of playing it safe like a scrub! 3; A lesser game would have us both held up on that shitty mountain - instead I'm motorin through 3-1's blackouts like a ninja (MEMORISED THOSE TOO ;3 ) while you're waiting for jump assistance like an ol' granny! ¦3 Basically until you step it up, my 2-2 is this

Spoiler

and yours is this!

Spoiler

[Sumez]

I still think the stage would be better without it. Either way, in NG2 it's just an annoying thing in an otherwise outstanding game. In Goku Makaimura it's further insult to injury in a game that's already chaotic and unintuitive.

[BIL]

Oh yeah, I can get wanting it gone entirely (as with the dark, water and ice hazards). I just find the second floor race an unexpectedly fun wrinkle in what could've been total drudge. I wonder how intentional it was... given how badly the first floor's pitstop (bwahaha!) sucks, I'd guess "maybe not."

I like NGII's environmental hijinks overall, finding them a nice complication to the high-speed action. What bugs me is the punitively tiny swordbox (screws up the first game's inimitably smooth OTG kills), and to a lesser degree the overly mild damage scale (you can afford to get whapped around so much, deft play can feel a bit optional... though as with the similarly balanced GUN-DEC, I consider smooth runs their own reward). If I could fine-tune it, I'd reinstate NG1's swordbox for Ryu (not the shadows - reducing theirs makes sense), and harden up the damage scale a bit.

Been playing NGII all evening, not coincidentally.

[Sumez]

Environmental gimmicks are generally a damn risky thing to try and pull off. Very few games do it effectively, and even the ones that do often aren't any better for them anyways.

The darkness effect in NG2 I found to be pretty awesome though. I liked that gimmick as it managed to change up the gameplay a bit without ever being obtrusive, and it adds a ton to the atmosphere of the game! DKC Tropical Freeze did something similar on the Busted Bayou stage (except it's dark all the time), and it's one of the coolest and most stylish platforming stages I've played.

NG2 in general has much more "level design" than NG1 which is mostly just a gauntlet of obstacles combined with enemies of various classes. Objctively, you could say it's an improvement on its prequel in every way. Wall climbing is smoother, the game is overall less punishing while still being challenging, it looks better, and the weapons are cooler.
Still, I prefer the simplicity and basic cruelty of NG1 over NG2 or 3 any day. It's just such a straight forward game where everything just WORKS. It's not that NG2 and 3 aren't both amazing games, I just generally prefer NG1 to almost anything.

[Ed Oscuro]

Am I just totally off here?

Yes, you are dead wrong about The Ninja Gaiden II's windy stage. >:3

No for real the mandatory wait at the first pit sucks diiick, but the second floor's race to make it over the big gap without breaking stride is really cool and the stage would be lessened without it. ¦3

[/quote]
I kind of agree with Sumez here, the opening of the stage is brutal and I haven't been able to get past it. The bit you've animated looks really cool but that opening is just no good for me.

[BrianC]

I'm thinking of playing the US beta of Ninja Gaiden for the uncensored dialog, but I'm not sure if it is worth it (not sure if it has bugs not in the final). It's definitely worth playing the beta version of US Maniac Mansion NES over the final, though.

All this talk of a windy stage reminds me of SMB2J. I remember that stage being a bit brutal with a very large gap.

[BIL]

I kind of agree with Sumez here, the opening of the stage is brutal and I haven't been able to get past it. The bit you've animated looks really cool but that opening is just no good for me.

It's very easy to get ping-ponged around in 2-2's first floor, and tbh at NGII in general. The damage scale is mild, but I swear it feels like besides making Ryu's sword smaller, they increased both his hitbox and the knockback distance... either way it's a very touchy-feeling game, compared to the original's sublimely balanced collision and handling. Best general tip IMO is to not hold back on the subweapons - you get tons of ammo, and (the thirsty shield aside) they'll blow away screenloads of enemies for cheap.

As for the wind hazard, basically you have to sit there and take the first pushback. I like to make that first jump, whack the ledge guarder and camp out a bit; it's pretty much the best you can do. >w< Once the wind drops you can just floor it up the ridges and down the drop, subweaponing anything in the way ; the wind schedule is fixed and won't stop an advancing player. Even if you have to break stride due to enemies and get held up, you can kill everything in the floor's last section and comfortably wait it out. (NGII at least dials back on the original's garotte-tight respawn trigger, though you still can't wander too far without it biting down).

All this talk of a windy stage reminds me of SMB2J. I remember that stage being a bit brutal with a very large gap.

I was thinking of that game too, haha. Still haven't gotten around to playing it seriously yet, unfortunately. Saving it for when I've more time. For now those airborne Bloopers are enough existential "SMB... in HELL" horror for me!

I'm mainly playing Makyou Densetsu aka The Legendary Axe (PCE) at the moment. It's ok and has some notable strengths, but it's afflicted by some of the same niggly issues as The Lord of King on FC (incidentally, Tokuhiro Takemori directed both Makyou Densetsu and the arcade Lord of King according to GSK). I prefer the PCE game's lesser-feted pseudosequel Ankoku Densetsu aka The Legendary Axe II, atm. Less distinctive, but generally a more solid hack/slasher. Both have much less annoying packaging than the daft Jaleco FC box though!

[Sumez]

Once you start playing SMB2J for realsies, the wind stages aren't an issue. Basically, you can storm right through them without stopping. That's true for most of the game, actually. As long as you keep a steady pace and just keep running ahead, most of the stage design will behave accordingly, pirahna plants and all. That's why it's such a fun game to play.

[Sumez]

I wrote all this stuff about why I just can't get into Goku Makaimura. And all people took away from it was that I don't like the wind gimmick in NG2 :3

[Shoryukev]

I played SMB2J a little bit on my wii a long time ago, I enjoyed it quite a bit. I guess I could play it on my SNES a la "lost levels" on my snes since I own the all-stars cart....but idk, something about it just doesn't feel right. Probably the graphic overhaul, it just seems very out of place.

The change in difficulty from the norm is something I wish the mario franchise would do more often. I know it's their bread-n-butter for casual game sales, but it wouldn't hurt them to throw us a bone every once in awhile (maybe lol)

[Sumez]

SMB2J is the only Mario game ever created that was even remotely challenging, so we should definitely embrace it. I have heard many people blame the difficulty on bad design, which I believe is absolutely not the case. It might not be as tight as the first SMB, but on the other hand, it doesn't have a truckload of completely superflous levels that are complete walkovers. I too would love to see another Mario game like this, but it is quite obvious that it would never happen. People complained that Luigi's 100 purple coins in Galaxy was "too hard", so that kinda sets the standard.

SMB1 and Lost Levels in All-stars have a different gravity to the jumps compared to the original NES titles. It's nothing that ruins your game, but if your muscle memory is attuned to the NES engine you will definitely feel the difference, so it's better to stick to one of them.

[Shoryukev]

That makes sense hearing the difference in jump physics, as a kid I played SMB1 to death so something about All-stars just didn't feel right but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Been debating picking up a repro of SMB2J, it's a fun game. I definitely don't agree that the difficulty is a product of bad design......you just need to git gud. I've always seen SMB2J as an extension of the original SMB1.....#2 starts on world 9 in my brain.

I'll have to look up differences in the other games....I'd imagine they all have minor changes that affect gameplay. Glad to hear that it's not just all in my head LOL.

On a side note I've designed quite a few SMB3 levels on Mario Maker, it's interesting designing things to be a little complicated and challenging. There's a learning curve to it, but you can do some pretty interesting things if you look outside the box. I recently had my best level flagged and taken off the server though.....stupid scrubs can't beat my level so they got it taken down somehow. It's annoying when you put several hours into something and it gets taken away, it marked the save file for the level so it can't be re-uploaded

I'm sure most people on this forum have no interest in Mario Maker (I surely didn't until I saw my son playing it at my sister's house), but if there is interest I can link you guys with a code to one of my better ones. I'd rather play my created MM levels than any new mario game at least.

[Sumez]

I haven't consulted anyone into technical details, but what I heard is that SMB3 supposedly plays exactly like the NES counterpart, save for some bugfixes, etc. Considering how similar the SNES and NES CPUs are, that really doesn't sound unlikely either (SNES even has an NES backwards compatibility mode, but I doubt that was used)

What you're saying about SMB2J is exactly how I always looked at it - it's a different approach to what a "sequel" is (and honestly, in 1986 there weren't too many video game sequels around, so it was still kinda up in the air) it definitely feels like it picks up exactly where the first game ends, and just ramps it up from there. It feels like a natural place to continue from SMB1 - you've already learned the controls, and mastered all basic tricks. Why go back to level 1 and start learning this stuff again? You want some bang for your bucks, and SMB2J ABSOLUTELY provides that. And once you've completely mastered the game, you have the dreaded World 9 which only gives you one life to complete it, or worlds A to D which you get for free in All-Stars, but require a specific setup to unlock in the original.

Why get a "repro" though? I get that not everyone is crazy enough to buy a disk system only for this game (like I did...), but if you're gonna play a pirated copy anyway, why not just fire up an everdrive or whatever?

[Shoryukev]

I'm on the fence about it. I already have probably close to 200 NES carts, so I'm already well past the point of no return LOL. If I ever had to sell my collection I'd definitely get one, but right now I'm kinda weighing having one flash cart with all the oddball stuff on it vs having half a dozen repros of famicom games to play on my toaster NES.

It might seem stupid but fumbling through my drawers of games and putting them into the system is a part of the fun for me. I have a few repros already (Holy Diver NES, Megaman & Bass SNES, Wily Wars GEN) and have had pretty good experiences with them so far. I do have a line I won't cross though, if the game was released in my territory I won't touch a repro with a 39-1/2 foot pole.

Getting a disk system is something I've toyed with in my head. I think it would be a pretty cool addition.

[BIL]

I wrote all this stuff about why I just can't get into Goku Makaimura. And all people took away from it was that I don't like the wind gimmick in NG2 :3

Give the Makaimura thread some rovin. ;3

[Dangerous_D]

Ninja Gaiden, now that's a Game on the NES like more I miss playing

Fire up TEH ROMZ and get playing once more, the task force is hiring!

Am I just totally off here?

Yes, you are dead wrong about The Ninja Gaiden II's windy stage. >:3

No for real the mandatory wait at the first pit sucks diiick, but the second floor's race to make it over the big gap without breaking stride is really cool and the stage would be lessened without it. ¦3

Animated GIF "Ninja Ryukenden II: Ankoku no NITROUS BOOST"

Spoiler

U SEE THEM SKIIILZ >83

Cauterise the pit! battle up the stairs! and then, I liek it when u HIT TEH BOOST. One of my favourite little 1337 setpieces to pull off, especially while grabbing the ammo maxup! There is also an extend but PFFF. (I don't speedrun but I do enjoy cutting out dead time wherever possible)

not really big on the roms, rarely on my computer

[BrianC]

One thing to note is that the Super Mario Lost Levels on the VC is the FDS SMB2 right down to the title screen. The only thing missing is the FDS intro and disk flipping screens. I have it on VC, but I play it on Everdrive, especially since it only uses the expansion sound for the ending.

[hien]

I wrote all this stuff about why I just can't get into Goku Makaimura. And all people took away from it was that I don't like the wind gimmick in NG2 :3

Since it's probably about nine years ago that I played it, I don't remember that much about Goku besides it having awfully bad leveldesign at times (some of the enemy spaw points, spawning rate and behavior is simply too random to be able to control it reliably, resulting in annoying random hits/deaths) and generally bad design choices (double jump and magic via items/equipment, stupid ring collecting etc.). Playing Goku in Ultimate Mode without credit feeding through it feels like torture. Which is probably the reason the "Kai" version was released shortly after. It scraps a lot of the pseudo adventure bullshit of the regular Goku (equipment and ring collecting) and tries to get back to the roots of the series, bringing back two loops while providing revised level design mostly. The first loop thus is a walk in the park in comparison. The second loop on the other hand brings back a lot of the bad level design of regular Goku but still stays a bit more managable in Ultimate Mode. After finishing it on UM I never really had to urge to play it again to be honest. I'm not really a big fan of the series though to I might have to add.

[Sumez]

Man, if the second loop makes the first loop seem easy... I don't know what to do.

I just got close to the Super Chohmakaighouls 1cc today at my fifth or so attempt at the game, so it's going pretty fast - had a pretty tough run-in with the penultimate boss, but after watching a few videos of people who are good at the game, I think I'm ready to take him down. I don't know why people say this game is the hardest of the series? To me, it feels like the easiest by a landslide - it's just super long and slow.
Goku, however. What were they thinking. :S

[hien]

Man, if the second loop makes the first loop seem easy... I don't know what to do.

I was referring to the "Kai"-version of the game with that (which I'd recommend if you really want to go for a 1CC since vanilla Goki isn't worth the trouble). The first loop is much easier in that one. And having played vanilla Goku, you'll be more than prepared for the second loop of Kai's UM as well. As stated above, it also got its problems but it's not as bad as vanilla Goku imo. Well, that's at least how I think to remember it. XD

Edit: d'oh, somehow totally missed the paragraph were you stated that you were actually talking about Kai to begin with. Sorry for the totally useless info then.

[Skykid]

Goku Makaimura

While pressing on with Choh (with an H) on SNES in the little spare time I have after work, my daily commute gives me a little time every day to experiment with Goku on the PSP.

My first meeting with this game left me very disappointed. I hated the item collection, multiple hitpoints, instant respawning and everything else that just didn't feel like classic Makaimura.
When I heard about Kai, I immediately bought that version and was quite pleased with the alterations, believing it would please me. That said, it still didn't really click. The abundance of awkward secret hunting from the original release remains, even though 90% of it it technically pointless, including varieties of shields with no purpose, and armors that do almost nothing. The controls also felt somewhat off, and the game ultimately felt way too difficult in all the wrong ways.

Now I've picked it back up and decided to give it another try - it worked for Contra 4, which I now absolutely love, so why not this.
That said, I still think it has most of the same problems mentioned above. I can spend ages getting absolutely nowhere on a stage until I end up just darting off and jumping over every enemy rather than taking up the fight. Controls are extremely marred by the fact that the game technically runs in 3D space and the depth in the graphics making it really difficult to understand hitboxes. This is a pretty common issue with many 2.5D games, and only very few games ever got it right (Link Between Worlds is one good example). Add extremely messy graphics with a chaotic mix of colors and an abundance of pointless particle effects on top of this.

Attack timing is weird, and when a jump occasionally gets cancelled by your attack animation, that's just plain bad design. Whenever I jump over enemies attacking downwards, I just pray that my attacks actually connect rather than relying on my own skill - that's as far from Daimakaimura as you can possibly get.
The level design is mostly fun and creative, but also full of trial-and-error challenges to a degree that no other game in the series comes even close to. Many stage hazards and elements don't feel appropriate for this kind of game, and many of them not for any game. I can't remember any instance of changing winds that pushes the player back ever doing anything good for any game (see: Ninja Gaiden II), and ditto for terribly slow repetitive autoscrollers that wrap back across distances already travelled.

In general, the basic elements of a Makaimura game is here, but somehow the game also seems to possess absolutely nothing of what actually made the three original games so ingenious.

Am I just totally off here?

Mostly off, but some of your issues are relevant. There are a lot of armors, shields and other pickups that are redundant in Kai, and the 2.5D perspective does affect the controls and takes some getting used to.

That said a majority of redundant pickups is standard in any Makaimura, and once you get a handle on Kai's controls it becomes very natural with a good weight balance.

Personally I think it's a superb game with fantastic stage design and a well balanced learning curve that only falls down if you consider the flying boots to be overpowered (I don't, it's still as tough as nails).

I'm sad I got so close to a 2ALL without pulling it off when I was playing it a while back. I just couldn't get around the volcano stage on the second loop consistently enough

[copy-paster]

Been revisit original NG and got stuck at 6-2 now, will playing it again later. ;'(

Also, is it really true that the modern NG series chronologically is a prequel to the NES trilogy?