PS4 / Xbox One console war

[brownvim]

Your right, basically ESRAM and Kinect "move engines" have taken up valuable space on the die.

Sony used the space for adding extras focused on GPU power.

[HydrogLox]

lol people are actually discussing hardware upgrades as if they were even remotely viable.

This isn't a mobile phone with mostly free, shitty throwaway games here.

And yet these general mobile devices have created a marketplace in which somewhat dedicated gaming devices like the 3DS and PS Vita cannot easily thrive.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 22#p990922

I just still wonder if that mainstream is happy with a phone for portable gaming, rather than a dedicated, tailored device.

The marketplace shows that the majority is perfectly happy with these all-in-ones - they have no need for a dedicated, tailored device as gaming isn't a "serious" priority to them - even if they claim to "game".

Once you look at the Xbox One as the first in a line of entertainment media service set-top boxes (rather than a gaming console) the rules change - the Xbox line may very well be aiming to become the home/living-room based entertainment media all-in-one (oh, and it does "games" too) - possibly with a shiny (non-mandatory) hardware refresh every year (or two). However the device isn't the profit maker - ultimately it is the entertainment services that pipe through the device that need make the "money".

[trap15]

- Not directly related to this story, there's a much more memory-hungry operating system in the Xbox.

A memory hungry OS from Microsoft? I never would have guessed!

[Xyga]

Once you look at the Xbox One as the first in a line of entertainment media service set-top boxes (rather than a gaming console) the rules change - the Xbox line may very well be aiming to become the home/living-room based entertainment media all-in-one...

That may be appealing to the North American and maybe UK (+AU/NZ?) customers, but not for the rest of the world where TV services have yet to develop, or are already in place via a different commercial offer / network.
Basically if you have an Xbox One and live in the US, you get 10 times more stuff and services than anywhere else. things could change, but Microsoft will have to understand local competition and demand.

[Daigohji]

Once you look at the Xbox One as the first in a line of entertainment media service set-top boxes (rather than a gaming console) the rules change - the Xbox line may very well be aiming to become the home/living-room based entertainment media all-in-one...

That may be appealing to the North American and maybe UK (+AU/NZ?) customers, but not for the rest of the world where TV services have yet to develop, or are already in place via a different commercial offer / network.
Basically if you have an Xbox One and live in the US, you get 10 times more stuff and services than anywhere else. things could change, but Microsoft will have to understand local competition and demand.

It's really only appealing to North America. Much of the Xbone's TV-piping functionality is based around cable TV, which is a rarity in the UK compared to satellite. Also, Microsoft have completely failed to tailor this functionality to PAL territories, since 50Hz TV signals are going in, but the Xbone only outputs 60Hz, introducing motion judder from interpolation. Your average Johnny Couch-Potato who MS are targetting this thing at is going to take one look at the jittery mess the Xbone makes of his sports channels and think it's broken.

[Ed Oscuro]

- Not directly related to this story, there's a much more memory-hungry operating system in the Xbox.

A memory hungry OS from Microsoft? I never would have guessed!

The sad thing is that Microsoft's OS is at least a little more ambitious than Sony's - I would love to find out what the justification is for voice + kinect = BILLIONS! and BILLIONS! more bytes in service :/

the whole thing about DDR3 -> ESRAM -> fewer GPU cells reminds me of the strange design decision in the original Xbox that led to the horrible aerogel capacitors in many of those boxes. (let's not spend money on a dedicated timer chip -> implement it in another chip, which now needs to be powered -> coin battery won't supply enough power -> huge and expensive aerogel capacitor! -> but wait, they die horribly...

Microsoft is good at making "unique" design choices in their systems as a result of bodging together off-the-shelf parts + trying to make it a unique / secure design + cost-cutting.

TECHNOLOGY FROM TEH FUTUAR

[Ed Oscuro]

50Hz TV signals are going in, but the Xbone only outputs 60Hz

Sheesh, you guys didn't even get that fixed in the first system update yet. I coulda sworn it had been.

Anyway, there actually IS a way around this issue: http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/games/13 ... r-problems
I'm not sure that it's a permanent fix or whether it needs to be fiddled with every time one wants to use TV, though.

[Friendly]

PS4 has voice support, too, if you have the camera. I have tested it and it works quite well.

[HydrogLox]

That may be appealing to the North American and maybe UK (+AU/NZ?) customers, but not for the rest of the world where TV services have yet to develop, or are already in place via a different commercial offer / network.
Basically if you have an Xbox One and live in the US, you get 10 times more stuff and services than anywhere else. things could change, but Microsoft will have to understand local competition and demand.

It's really only appealing to North America. Much of the Xbone's TV-piping functionality is based around cable TV, which is a rarity in the UK compared to satellite. Also, Microsoft have completely failed to tailor this functionality to PAL territories, since 50Hz TV signals are going in, but the Xbone only outputs 60Hz, introducing motion judder from interpolation. Your average Johnny Couch-Potato who MS are targetting this thing at is going to take one look at the jittery mess the Xbone makes of his sports channels and think it's broken.

I suspect that this approach has the North American region as its primary target - possibly because it has the greatest potential to find a well paying buyer. Microsoft has been pushing the Xbox brand more and more into the foreground while the Microsoft brand has been taking a back seat. The "games-gone-hollywood" business which they helped to create is turning out to be a much too complicated way of making money, so they are trying to get the Xbox service to a point where it seems to have lots of growing and earning potential - at which point they hand it over to the highest bidder. After that changeover the remaining regional organizations would simply be sold off to local networks or media companies - which could mean the end of the international Xbox brand. The international Xbox brand can only survive if it provides content that is relevant to most of its regional subsidiaries giving them an edge over other local competitors.

[Xyga]

Today I went for a round of 'Yo got some PS4s dude?' with all the UK suppliers I know.

Basically it's still impossible to find the basic PS4 package (unless you're ready to pay dirty money for a just a few units) only bundles with games in low supply.

However if you're looking for Xbones and accessories; no problem they already stocked too much of everything and began cutting prices.

Wow. So Microsoft. Very fail. Much expensive. Such defeat.

...

Okay to be fair we're talking about millions of units so who cares if it's 5 or 3, most major games will be on both systems anyway.
Still, we have a clear 'first year' winner here and I still cannot believe how Microsoft could do so many mistakes, starting - going back a few months - with that ridiculous launch presentation aimed 100% at US customers with all that football and COD crap.
It's not just the awful firmware control shit they should have removed - they should have removed the Kinect and aligned with the PS4's price right away.

Price. Price makes everything. If you're not selling the best product you absolutely have to make the offer more appealing with a decent price the customer can associate the value of the product with.
If the WiiU had sold for 199€/£189/$199 one or two months before Xmas, I bet things would have been a bit different.

...

international Xbox brand can only survive if it provides content that is relevant to most of its regional subsidiaries giving them an edge over other local competitors.

Will never happen I'm afraid.
Microsoft better have good exclusive games in their future catalog. And region-free.

[brentsg]

Honestly my main beef with the Xbox One is that I can't wipe that warning that tells me that I don't have Kinect attached. Yes I know, thanks now stop.

Otherwise there have always been variations in capability amongst the consoles. It's just weird now because the architecture is converging. But as always, you choose whether to get one or more boxes and if you have more than one you have to decide which one you'll use for cross platform titles.

I guess I do have one other beef. I prefer the Xbox controller (again) but will wind up slanting buys to the PS4.

[Friendly]

The people who were suckered into buying the 40% weaker hardware at a 25% higher price will probably stick with it and play inferior multiplats for the rest of the generation, telling themselves that the difference between 720p and 1080p and 30fps and 60fps doesn't really matter, remaining firmly locked into the paywall-scheme without paying for which their expensive console loses most of its functionality, while secretly despising those who made the correct choice by getting the better but less expensive hardware and by not rewarding the company that had planned to destroy gaming by removing the concept of ownership and thereby not subsidizing and endorsing any of its inane design choices and game procurement policies.

[Ed Oscuro]

Kind-of OT but I figure this could have worked here:
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/browse/xb ... al-console
"Original Xbox console: FAQ
If you have general questions about support for the original Xbox 360 console, we've got some common questions and answers for you here."

Q: What is the original Xbox called?

PS4 has voice support, too, if you have the camera. I have tested it and it works quite well.

Yes, Friendly, even without your constant nattering we didn't forget

What's at issue is why Microsoft's implementation seems to be more resource-heavy, and (if this is true) whether this is offset by any potential advantage. Some people were theorizing, and horrible Microsoft PR FUD-spreaders claimed, that the Xbox One has some audio processing circuitry on the APU (die shots possibly back this up) that the Sony machine does not, but it does seem to me that Sony has made a perfectly usable design without any extra voodoo and possibly without GPU usage. I'd like to know more about the PS4 camera - that format seems about perfect for doing some local machine vision processing, to free up the main system's resources. Of course this wasn't going to happen on the Xbox One, where they're locked into providing a Kinect with every unit so they might as well put its processing circuitry on the APU and save money - so it would seem if they thought that there wasn't any problem with the APU's comparative resources.

The main apparent result of having the Xbox One constantly watch for voice commands is that its standby power is far higher than Sony's machine, so that even though the PS4 uses more power at run time, an Xbox One may still end up using more power.

The people who were [...]

[HydrogLox]

Basically it's still impossible to find the basic PS4 package (unless you're ready to pay dirty money for a just a few units) only bundles with games in low supply.

This may improve once we get past the Japanese PS4 launch on the 22. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the PS4 production past the North American and European launch allocations went into stocking up for the Japanese launch.

I still cannot believe how Microsoft could do so many mistakes, starting - going back a few months - with that ridiculous launch presentation aimed 100% at US customers with all that football and COD crap.

The presentation was failure from a gamer's perspective - but I also think it was indicative of their new "all-in-one" direction (not to be confused with Sony's "It only does everything" PS3 campaign).

Price. Price makes everything. If you're not selling the best product you absolutely have to make the offer more appealing with a decent price the customer can associate the value of the product with. If the WiiU had sold for 199€/£189/$199 one or two months before Xmas, I bet things would have been a bit different.

Agreed - but after the Wii hardware outselling both the subsidized PS3 and Xbox 360 hardware for some duration Microsoft probably swore to never sell hardware at a loss again - they can be stubborn that way. And fleecing the early adopters while they still can ...

international Xbox brand can only survive if it provides content that is relevant to most of its regional subsidiaries giving them an edge over other local competitors.

Will never happen I'm afraid.
Microsoft better have good exclusive games in their future catalog. And region-free.

I expressed myself poorly as I did not mean by providing specialized/regional content- but for example by providing another iteration of Halo which would be in demand in most regions and which would only be provided through the regional Xbox subsidiaries.

[brentsg]

...while secretly despising those ...

I got a laugh out of this coming from you. Some people are fine with the world being a crazy place.

[Marc]

The people who were suckered into buying the 40% weaker hardware at a 25% higher price will probably stick with it and play inferior multiplats for the rest of the generation, telling themselves that the difference between 720p and 1080p and 30fps and 60fps doesn't really matter, remaining firmly locked into the paywall-scheme without paying for which their expensive console loses most of its functionality, while secretly despising those who made the correct choice by getting the better but less expensive hardware and by not rewarding the company that had planned to destroy gaming by removing the concept of ownership and thereby not subsidizing and endorsing any of its inane design choices and game procurement policies.

Jesus Christ man, don't you EVER. FUCKING. STOP?

Hey and here's a weird one. You've all seen the Konami Metal Gear comparison pics right? Not only could I not tell much of a difference between Xbone and PS4, but I kind of found it weird that people would readily she'll out £350-£400 for the difference between the current gen versions and the new ones. Eventually the 360 (my machine this last gen) will be phased out completely, and I guess I'll pick up one or the other. In the meantime I'll manage. Guess I'll miss out on some nice textures and weather effects, oh well.

[Moniker]

The people who were suckered into buying the 40% weaker hardware at a 25% higher price will probably stick with it and play inferior multiplats for the rest of the generation, telling themselves that the difference between 720p and 1080p and 30fps and 60fps doesn't really matter, remaining firmly locked into the paywall-scheme without paying for which their expensive console loses most of its functionality, while secretly despising those who made the correct choice by getting the better but less expensive hardware and by not rewarding the company that had planned to destroy gaming by removing the concept of ownership and thereby not subsidizing and endorsing any of its inane design choices and game procurement policies.

Jesus Christ man, don't you EVER. FUCKING. STOP?

No, he doesn't. And neither does replayme. It's fucking disgusting, intellectually insulting/boring, and a detriment to our somewhat enlightened forum. Those two bans are long overdue, by anyone's reckoning. They can go to hell, and should, as far as I'm concerned. Even in the context of the (stupidly) sanctioned console war.

[system11]

It's almost like people forgot this is a console war thread - a sink specifically designed to reduce the crusading elsewhere.

[brentsg]

It's almost like people forgot this is a console war thread - a sink specifically designed to reduce the crusading elsewhere.

There's a train wreck right here. It's hard not to look.

[system11]

Referring to the Xbone sales as a train wreck seems a bit harsh

Zing.

[Moniker]

It's almost like people forgot this is a console war thread - a sink specifically designed to reduce the crusading elsewhere.

I get that, and sympathize. But we would be much better informed, with greater integrity, minus a couple of obvious contributors.

Since that's not up to me, I can only recommend. I'd say a purge is warranted.

That's all I'll say on the matter. As always, I trust Sys11 to make the proper call.

[Skykid]

It's almost like people forgot this is a console war thread - a sink specifically designed to reduce the crusading elsewhere.

I get that, and sympathize. But we would be much better informed, with greater integrity, minus a couple of obvious contributors.

Since that's not up to me, I can only recommend. I'd say a purge is warranted.

That's all I'll say on the matter. As always, I trust Sys11 to make the proper call.

Since I usually get in trouble for mentioning the exact same thing for the exact same reason, I'll just say you have my vote: it would be really, finally excellent to lose the droning PR.

It's fucking disgusting, intellectually insulting/boring, and a detriment to our somewhat enlightened forum.

I didn't realise anyone else had noticed!

[Lloyd Mangram]

The people who were suckered into buying the 40% weaker hardware at a 25% higher price will probably stick with it and play inferior multiplats for the rest of the generation, telling themselves that the difference between 720p and 1080p and 30fps and 60fps doesn't really matter, remaining firmly locked into the paywall-scheme without paying for which their expensive console loses most of its functionality, while secretly despising those who made the correct choice by getting the better but blut bla blah blah blub blug blubber blaht blarp parp phart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart.

Or maybe they'll just be having fun playing Titanfall.

[replayme]

Actually, the last time I "bashed" Nintendo was 3 Feb (over 2 weeks ago). And at least I ain't a corporate shill for the likes of Ys and Nintendo's bank balance.

Edit: I also think it's retarded if people are complaining of console bashing when the subject concerns console wars and alludes to next gen gaming - especially if they've happily admitted to not even liking "next gen" games.

That's a bit like me walking into an Eminem concert and then complaining that there was too much hip hop. I mean, what did you expect?

[Casey120]

[brownvim]

This threads all about bashing the consoles

[Casey120]

This threads all about bashing the consoles

Hence the topic title

[Ed Oscuro]

Sheesh, and here I thought people would be calling me out for going harsh on Friendly. At least he was technically on-topic in his response to me, except that comment was pulling in the typical "gee, Sony is great" direction, rather than leading in the direction I wanted it to. It's still a Xbone-bashy thing but it just seems different somehow, and saying "Sony has teh voice 2!11" kind of ignores the whole thrust of the commentary - Microsoft indeed aimed higher than Sony but the implementation is (by all accounts) execrable. Of course that's anybody's right to say, but I don't think there are any people out there who are coming to Shmups Forum and saying "wow, this random post totally changed my thinking." Maybe if this was NeoGAF or something that would work. I guess it's interesting to say that Sony does quite as well for voice commands (I really don't want a voice command to turn on the console, personally, though having it as an option seems fine, as shown in the famous Demolition Man scene - no clip so have this instead) on the important points, but that doesn't really inform the discussion I was trying to have about where Microsoft's performance is getting sunk into.

And overall it's really quite depressing that these "amazing" new systems have nothing but mobile parts and a load of RAM in them, when you get down to it. In 2005 there was still the illusion that the next gen consoles were actually exotic technology being delivered at cutrate prices. Suddenly, the idea of Microsoft even making a profit on Xbox Ones doesn't seem too far-fetched.

Brilliant article from Polygon, by the way, for whoever posted that. It is indeed a brutish way to sell the console. I am not sure whether to be surprised or not by the assertion that 90%+ of the people who buy those systems don't like Kinect.

[Skykid]

Actually, the last time I "bashed" Nintendo was 3 Feb (over 2 weeks ago). And at least I ain't a corporate shill for the likes of Ys and Nintendo's bank balance.

... who's talking about you?

Also, did you just actually suggest I've been corporate shilling for Ys?

Corporate shilling for Ys?!

Come on Az, just read that back.

Spoiler

I haven't noticed any corporate shilling for Nintendo either, I should add... unless 'corporate shilling' means something completely different to what I thought it meant.

[Ed Oscuro]

Skykid is shilling for the spoiler tag manufacturers, though.