XRGB-mini Framemeister

[jthompson3067]

Good Evening,

Signed up to say I'm a proud owner of the Framemeister . Thank you guys/gals for all the good reading prior to purchasing... it really did take some time!

NES Composite out to Framemeister --> Sony Bravia 46"
Strict Super Mario Brothers 3, looks absolutely stunning, no lag, worked out of the box. My order came pre-loaded with firmware 1.07A, tinkering with colors and setting to English were the only notable changes. I prefer the "meister" setting scanlines for my setup/smb3.

I am looking to buy a pre-modded RGB NES. What additional cable will I need to hook this up to the Framemeister with? As far as I know I have to use a modded SCART cable but don't know exactly what/where to buy. Any input would be appreciated. Also anybody looking to sell a RGB NES kindly send me a PM. Thanks!!

-Jake

[papa_november]

I also need to get to taking some pictures of what it looks like.

And here we go:

[Shining]

Also anybody looking to sell a RGB NES kindly send me a PM. Thanks!!

Welcome! And i'll second that. Or a Famicom.

[chronic1]

Also anybody looking to sell a RGB NES kindly send me a PM. Thanks!!

Welcome! And i'll second that. Or a Famicom.

I hadn't thought of that. Would be pretty sweet to pick up a NES with an RGB mod.... Running through the mini, that would look pretty great on a HDTV, right?

[Shining]

I think you need a special Playchoice PPU to do the mod, so it's not an easy or cheap one to do. Also, i think the color palette gets somewhat messed up but don't quote me on that.

*Edit: Just made a thread about it. Hopefully we'll get some detailed answers there.

[masqdgamer]

no more, those I run on the Pioneer PDP with it's magic deinterlacer. If Micomsoft gives me a single-field gamemode without the interpolation, I'll get back on the Mini.

do you have any setting suggestions for 480i content?
(for those of us without that amazing Pioneer)

thanks

[Fudoh]

480i isn't the same as 480i For real 480i titles you definitely need a mode with full res processing, so either standard or natural. V_SCALER to 5 is probably the best to get rid of jaggies. Set output res to 1080p and you can add SHARPNESS=1.

For 240p content running in 480i mode, it's complicated. Either go with a single-frield mode (gamemode1/2/meistermode) and slap scanlines onto it. Set the SCALER settings to your liking. Or go with picture mode (with 2:2 deinterlacing) and set the V_SCALER to 8, again add scanlines manually. Output always to 720p and sharpness to 0 (or 1 if you don't mind details going waxy).

[Fudoh]

PS: another pioneer 402 sold near Stuttgart for 90 EUR today. Some lucky camper out there!

[Fudoh]

The NeoGeoX review (or 1st impression) is up in it's thread. The Framemeister can't help, since the scaling is screwed up internally (224 to 480 lines)...

[masqdgamer]

thanks Fudoh

[Aatos]

Got my mini and I'm otherwise rather satisfied with it, but I got a question regarding NES.

I have composite modded toploader (NTSC) NES. While the jailbars are completely gone (mostly thanks to the excellent mod), on some games there's strange flickering with some colors that I can't get rid of. I'm not entirely sure if this existed on my previous tv or if I just didn't notice it as I just got new, much bigger TV. It's most noticeable on Super Mario Bros. 1's first level; on Mario's outline against the blue backdrop, as well as on the white text at the top of the screen. I don't quite know the proper term for it, but the outlines of Mario as well as the white text vibrate even when the game is paused; the flicker is even worse when there's movement. It only goes away if I use the "freeze" button on mini (what is that for, anyway).

Do you guys experience this too/is it to be expected, any way to get rid of it, or is it a composite issue? As far as I could tell, NES hasn't been discussed much here, but I would assume not everyone has RGB modded NES considering their "near-extinct status" so there ought to be other people trying to get the best picture out of NES via composite. In addition to this I'd love to hear different people's experiences on the cables and settings you use to get most out of composite NES. Thanks!

[Fudoh]

Can't comment on this, but it you want the best out of your NES without a RGB mod, at least get an external comb filter, which converts the composite video to s-video or component before going into the Mini. The last Entech SVSI-1 and CVSI-1 units I saw sold rather cheap.

[marqs]

there's a color space option somewhere which can be switched between RGB and AUTO. Auto choses YCbCr for HDMI modes, when the TV supports it (read the EDID data), otherwise it defaults to RGB. My TV has a slight chroma delay with YCbCr signals, so I force the output to RGB.

I think AUTO chooses the output format according to the input, so RGB for RGBin and YCbCr for component (and probably for cvbs/s-video too). I'll have to re-check in the evening.

Yeah, this seems to be the case.

BTW, has anyone done any in-depth input lag measurements besides the averaged readings from the screenshots? I built a simple measurement system a few years ago from microcontroller, photoresistor and LCD display, which calculates and prints the delay between a step in input signal and luminance change in the display. This of course requires a PC to generate an appropiate test signal via VGA, but the results were fairly accurate back then. I could try the same setup with Mini during the Christmas holidays. Ideally we'd want to measure the delay of Mini only, but that would require decoding HDMI.

From hands-on testing, gaming with Mini felt no more or less laggy vs connecting the consoles directly to the TV via RGB scart. That probably just means that my Panasonic plasma has about the same delay with HDMI and RGB scart.

[Konsolkongen]

I don't quite know the proper term for it, but the outlines of Mario as well as the white text vibrate even when the game is paused; the flicker is even worse when there's movement. It only goes away if I use the "freeze" button on mini (what is that for, anyway).

Dot crawl?

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chri ... shots.html

[Fudoh]

BTW, has anyone done any in-depth input lag measurements besides the averaged readings from the screenshots?

I'll test it up and down once Leo's lag tester arrives here (likely the week after christmas). See the according thread for details.

[Aatos]

Dot crawl?

After looking things up, this is precisely what it is. From what I understood modern TV's seriously lack in the comb filtering department anyway which would explain why NES might look even worse on a new TV (especially when plugged directly in), compared to my old one..

Thanks again Konsolkongen, that page also neatly sums why the damn image flickers so much. As it's a console property, I suppose there's then no way to turn that "NTSC colour burst" off? I think I prefer the still image of Metal Man to the wiggly one..

Can't comment on this, but it you want the best out of your NES without a RGB mod, at least get an external comb filter, which converts the composite video to s-video or component before going into the Mini. The last Entech SVSI-1 and CVSI-1 units I saw sold rather cheap.

Seeing that I keep an additional unmodified PAL NES for some exclusive PAL games, this would seem the best option, especially in terms of how much benefit I'd get for my money (instead of two very expensive RGB mods). However it now seems both SVSI-1 and CVSI-1 are extremely elusive as well. I noticed you Fudoh were selling one some time ago, you wouldn't happen to still have it? Or, would you or anyone else have any suggestions on where to look for one, or any complementary product? Thanks again for all the help!

[Fudoh]

I would say maybe around 4 per year pop up on ebay.... last ones went for about $75.

[Konsolkongen]

Thanks again Konsolkongen, that page also neatly sums why the damn image flickers so much. As it's a console property, I suppose there's then no way to turn that "NTSC colour burst" off? I think I prefer the still image of Metal Man to the wiggly one..

Nope. According to the site though it looks better with that, than without. I use RGB for all my consoles, including US NES, so I wouldn't know

Seriously, if you play a lot of NES then get your US console modified to output RGB. You won't regret it. It can't be done on a PAL system, but 50Hz sucks anyway.

[Ed Oscuro]

I also need to get to taking some pictures of what it looks like.

And here we go:
http://i.imgur.com/L6HRb.jpg

What are you using to connect the XVI to the Framemeister? Does it take the regular X68000 plug or did you put together a X68000 to PC VGA plug?

[pyrotek85]

Thanks again Konsolkongen, that page also neatly sums why the damn image flickers so much. As it's a console property, I suppose there's then no way to turn that "NTSC colour burst" off? I think I prefer the still image of Metal Man to the wiggly one..

Nope. According to the site though it looks better with that, than without. I use RGB for all my consoles, including US NES, so I wouldn't know

Seriously, if you play a lot of NES then get your US console modified to output RGB. You won't regret it. It can't be done on a PAL system, but 50Hz sucks anyway.

Last I checked, the NES RGM mod can only be done using the PlayChoice-10 card, correct? Is there someone who has a supply that is doing the mods or is it something you need to hunt for?

[Fudoh]

The Playchoice CARTS don't have PPUs on them. You need to slaughter a Playchoice motherboard or you use a Versus Rom set, e.g. Duck Hunt. Each Versus rom set contains two RGB PPUs.

There are no supplies and the prices have exploded. $200+ on ebay for the PPU alone.

[pyrotek85]

The Playchoice CARTS don't have PPUs on them. You need to slaughter a Playchoice motherboard or you use a Versus Rom set, e.g. Duck Hunt. Each Versus rom set contains two RGB PPUs.

There are no supplies and the prices have exploded. $200+ on ebay for the PPU alone.

Yeah I meant the motherboards, sorry I wasn't specific. If those are the prices it may be tough to get one. Shame there isn't another way.

[Ed Oscuro]

Some colors will be wrong, too, in many games.

Not worth it.

[Fudoh]

Let's agree to disagree on this one No need to share the same arguments over and over again. I don't know anybody with a RGB-modded NES who isn't perfectly happy with it !

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm not having an argument with you, it's just called caveat emptor for the sake of the person considering it.

Somebody really ought to make a "replacement" RGB PPU that does prevent some colors from rendering the same though.

[pyrotek85]

I'm not having an argument with you, it's just called caveat emptor for the sake of the person considering it.

Somebody really ought to make a "replacement" RGB PPU that does prevent some colors from rendering the same though.

There was an N64 RGB mod made from an FPGA that worked on any model, so it's probably possible. I'd certainly buy one if it were more affordable, especially if it was easier to install yourself.

[Konsolkongen]

Some colors will be wrong, too, in many games.

Not worth it.

The difference is minor. It's a small price to pay for RGB-goodness.

EDIT: Seriously, I'll take this over eyecancer any day:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00358.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00407.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00387.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00382.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00380.jpg

Compare that to these shots of composite:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00412.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00419.jpg

That just looks like ass...

All pictures taken using the XRGB-mini. The composite ones are taken using a PAL NES, but if I recall correctly PAL color encoding is usually better than NTSC.

[Ed Oscuro]

Nice collection of RGB screens that don't show any problematic effects. It's one of those "nice when it works" things I suppose. Also, holy cow that is a terrible looking SMB screenshot, how did you manage that? Poor PALies, maybe?

[NWrain]

The topic of RGB NES has been brought up in other threads. From the pictures that I have seen, I really like the colors that the RGB NES mod produces. There is a lot more color variation. I want one as well, but the price of those PPU's are just too much.

[Artemio]

Maybe you can summarize it as "either way it is broken". But if the majority of games you play have no issues, I'd say go for it. I am quite happy with my modded NES. I rather have it looking awesome most of the time.