XRGB-3

[brentsg]

All these screenshots are good reference material.

I ended up buying a dvdo edge and I am happy to have even scanlines. Here is the before and after shots:

Can you be more specific? What exactly is the chain of gear used in both the before and after?

[ShutokouBattle]

Even with the lowest-end hardware, you'll always end up with the price of a XRGB-3. There are relatively good and cheap 480i deinterlacers available out there. Just pair up one of those with a XRGB-3 and you've got a very nice all-purpose processing setup for less than - let's say - 500 EUR.

You mention several iScan units on your website. Do you happen to know if this unit, the iScan Plus V2, is any good? Would it be any better at deinterlacing than my TV is? It only outputs 480p, but my TV seems to handle 480p signals pretty well. My Wii and my Dreamcast always look good on it, anyway. I also saw an iScan Pro unit without an AC adapter that went for $15, but I missed my chance.

[Fudoh]

the iScan Plus V2

... only has Video and S-video inputs, so I wouldn't consider it...

[trunk]

Can you be more specific? What exactly is the chain of gear used in both the before and after?

Sure here is the gear:

Before:
Super Famicom->rgbs scart to 21pin jrgb cabling->xrgb-3 in B1->generic monoprice vga2hdmi->Toshiba 46HM95

After:
Super Famicom->rgbs scart to 21pin jrgb cabling->xrgb-3 in B1->dsub15 to RGBHV breakout cable->DVDO Edge->Toshiba 46HM95

I look back at those 2 screenshots and it looks a little different but I had made a thread earlier which made it very obvious:



The pictures don't do justice to seeing the real thing. The way it looks in the post and the way it looks in real life is night and day. I am glad to finally be able to run old and new stuff on 1 big TV.

[kamiboy]

Super Famicom->rgbs scart to 21pin jrgb cabling->xrgb-3 in B1->generic monoprice vga2hdmi->Toshiba 46HM95

Well crap, I think that generic VGA to HDMI is the same device I bought off of ebay. I hope I didn't spend all that money to solve a problem and introduce a new. I am not keen on spending 500-600 more to solve that one as well.

How is your image stability with the DVDO? Any shaking making its round in the image you get?

EDIT:

Wouldn't happen to be this little wonder that was causing you trouble, would it? I think what I bought off of eBay a few days ago is a rebranded version of the same thing. I'll get it in a few days, but now I am suddenly not so excited anymore.

[trunk]

How is your image stability with the DVDO? Any shaking making its round in the image you get?

Image stability is good with the DVDO edge. But keep in mind that the vga2hdmi box did not shake either. The image was stable, the problem is the scaling my tv does is poor.

Basically if it was not for the fact that the TV doesn't scale right, the vga2hdmi box produces a satisfactory(to me) image with the xrgb-3. All it does is A/D, it does not perform any scaling to my (limited) knowledge.

Also using vga2hdmi looked better(to me) than vga2component(I have both) on my TV but both relied on the (crappy) internal scaling.

I just noticed I put so many parenthesis in these statements. I guess it's because I can tell when the obvious is wrong but I can't necessary distinguish the smaller details like the more knowledgeable group here.

EDIT:

Just saw your edit. Actually the one I have is This one. It neither solved nor broke anything. The picture looks good with it but didn't solve the scaling issue I had.

Also I went back a bit and saw this:

XRGB-3 over the 2plus: definitly the better choice for LCDs. More inputs, support for PSP Zoom, allows 480p input from Cube, PS2 etc on the same inputs. I wouldn't try to save $100 or 150 on buying a older XRGB.

I understand you are using an xrgb-2+ with an LCD so the thing your are trying to get rid of is that flickeriness. I tried the xrgb-2+ with vga2hdmi and also the edge. The edge scales correctly, the vga2hdmi(tv scaling) does not, but that flickeriness is still there regardless on my DLP. That XRGB-2+ flickeriness on anything other than CRTs is the reason I picked up an xrgb-3(I still have my 2+).

[kamiboy]

I understand you are using an xrgb-2+ with an LCD so the thing your are trying to get rid of is that flickeriness. I tried the xrgb-2+ with vga2hdmi and also the edge. The edge scales correctly, the vga2hdmi(tv scaling) does not, but that flickeriness is still there regardless on my DLP. That XRGB-2+ flickeriness on anything other than CRTs is the reason I picked up an xrgb-3(I still have my 2+).

I wouldn't call my problem flicker, it is more of a noise like shaking, like an unstable analogue signal. You see it best when you have a black screen and the menu of the XRGB-2+ up which is just large font big text. Instead of being clear and steady like I can make it on my CRT after a little tweaking of the dot clock on my LCD the text is constantly shaking as if caused by a very bad signal.

As said I don't have the problem on a VGA CRT monitor but my LCD's VGA input image from the XRGB is very poor in stability. The effect is a little less obvious once you are inside a game with a lot going on, but it is still there plain as day.

Anyway, I thought that my LCD had a poor overly sensitive VGA input so I thought about fixing it with a VGA to HDMI box. You basically have the model below the one I had with the only difference being that the one I got does scaling to 720p. I should have it in my hand the next week or so then I'll see if it manages to solve everything or if it was yet another red herring.

Then my only options are either to go with a XRGB-3, or get the DVDO edge. Neither of which come very cheap. I think outside of these forums people would brand anyone going through so much trouble for playing old defunct console systems as a special kind of crazy.

Too bad the CRT does not at all mesh in with my AV setup, otherwise I'd just dump it permanently below my LCD and call it a day.

[Konsolkongen]

I got another email from Micomsoft. I hope they are okay with me posting some of it here. No solution for my XRGB-3 problem yet, but i should receive another email about that shotly

Anyway. New XRGB confirmed!

We announced a new product in the exhibition. However, the sale might be spring of next year.
Expensive scaler IC is installed in this product. #Marvell HD digital format converter

XRGB-mini FLAME MEISTER G2（Tentative name）

Two of HDMI input
One of D-termianl input
One of Video input
One of S-Video input
Two of Stero Audio input
One of Multi(RGB/SCART) input
One of USB on the GO
One of HDMI output

Super High-speed I/P conversion is installed in this product. The delay is below 0 frames or less. Moreover, a variety of image enhancement processing can be added. It is a product that can cancel slow I/P conversion with TV.
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news ... 98626.html

Sounds very interesting! Lets hope for an out of the box scanline feature.

Love the name

[ShutokouBattle]

the iScan Plus V2

... only has Video and S-video inputs, so I wouldn't consider it...

Ah... yeah, you're right. For some reason I thought it had a component input. If I see another iScan Pro for $15, should I snatch it?

Also, that new XRGB unit sounds really cool. It sounds like they're trying to fix a lot of the problems that the XRGB-3 had. The fact that it has an HDMI out suggests that it might have the universal 1080p output ability that the XRGB-3 lacks. I'm also very interested about the part where it mentions that "a variety of image enhancement processing can be added." Maybe that means an image smoothing filter to satisfy fools like me who can't handle the blocky look of B0 mode. I also like that the RGB input is on the back (presumably). It also says that it's an RGB/SCART input, so maybe that means that it's actual European SCART rather than the RGB-21 input that the XRGB-3 unit had.

In any case, I'm excited.

[kamiboy]

Huzzah, better start saving already.

What are the HDMI inputs for I wonder? Pass through?

Also, great to see them move SCART input to the back, where it belongs.

EDIT:

Holy sperm whale, expected to retail for under 30.000 yen, that means it is going to cost around the same as a XRGB-3 right now. If this thing has universal scanline support then it is a must have. No more DVDO edge for me, and I can ditch that VGA scaler as well.

[darthcloud]

I got another email from Micomsoft. I hope they are okay with me posting some of it here. No solution for my XRGB-3 problem yet, but i should receive another email about that shotly

Anyway. New XRGB confirmed!

We announced a new product in the exhibition. However, the sale might be spring of next year.
Expensive scaler IC is installed in this product. #Marvell HD digital format converter

XRGB-mini FLAME MEISTER G2（Tentative name）

Two of HDMI input
One of D-termianl input
One of Video input
One of S-Video input
Two of Stero Audio input
One of Multi(RGB/SCART) input
One of USB on the GO
One of HDMI output

Super High-speed I/P conversion is installed in this product. The delay is below 0 frames or less. Moreover, a variety of image enhancement processing can be added. It is a product that can cancel slow I/P conversion with TV.
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news ... 98626.html

Sounds very interesting! Lets hope for an out of the box scanline feature.

Love the name

Awesome!

Btw, Would be could if it was possible to get some kind of Group purchases price for Shmups community

[Konsolkongen]

According to the link provided the retail price might be less than 30000yen. That's less than the XRGB-3!

I don't think it has a scart input at all. It sounds like it uses the VGA input for RGBs, like the D2 input on the XRGB-3. I actually liked the RGB input on the front of the XRGB-3

[Sargon]

I got another email from Micomsoft. I hope they are okay with me posting some of it here. No solution for my XRGB-3 problem yet, but i should receive another email about that shotly

Anyway. New XRGB confirmed!

We announced a new product in the exhibition. However, the sale might be spring of next year.
Expensive scaler IC is installed in this product. #Marvell HD digital format converter

XRGB-mini FLAME MEISTER G2（Tentative name）

Two of HDMI input
One of D-termianl input
One of Video input
One of S-Video input
Two of Stero Audio input
One of Multi(RGB/SCART) input
One of USB on the GO
One of HDMI output

Super High-speed I/P conversion is installed in this product. The delay is below 0 frames or less. Moreover, a variety of image enhancement processing can be added. It is a product that can cancel slow I/P conversion with TV.
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news ... 98626.html

Sounds very interesting! Lets hope for an out of the box scanline feature.

Love the name

Of course I find this out a week after I received my brand new XRGB-3!

[ShutokouBattle]

According to the link provided the retail price might be less than 30000yen. That's less than the XRGB-3!

I don't think it has a scart input at all. It sounds like it uses the VGA input for RGBs, like the D2 input on the XRGB-3. I actually liked the RGB input on the front of the XRGB-3

But that message you quoted says there's a "Multi(RGB/SCART) input."

[SGGG2]

If I see another iScan Pro for $15, should I snatch it?

I have one of these, and while it's decent, for 480i games that don't support or can't be forced into progressive properly, I prefer to use B1 (linedoubling) mode with heavy scanlines. Something about them creates the illusion of enhanced sharpness and detail, especially in motion. Not every game looks good but a few I had given up hope on (Nightshade, Devil May Cry 3) look rather nice.

EDIT: I've spent some more time comparing the different modes and outputs; the 480i deinterlacing of the iscan pro is heads and shoulders above what the XRGB does natively. There's no comparison. The XRGB scales it nicely to 1080p in B0, I still prefer the above, though. Here's Nightshade in B1: http://imgur.com/MlcXZ.jpg

[Konsolkongen]

But that message you quoted says there's a "Multi(RGB/SCART) input."

Yes but some people use the term RGB for VGA inputs. It only makes sense that this input is a VGA socket that can be set to either VGA or RGB scart, since there isn't a Scart input on the front anymore and considering the units size (i assume it's a lot smaller than the XRGB-3). That is how the D2 VGA input works on the XRGB-3 (can do both VGA and RGB scart).

You will probably need an adapter to use RGB scart cables on the XRGB-mini. I would be surprised if it wasn't included in the package

[Konsolkongen]

Got another email today about my XRGB-3 problems:

Dear Martin:


We think that there is the following possibilities about the problem that occurs by your XRGB-3.
1. Breakdown of Panasonic IC(AN15865AAVT)
2. There is a problem in the contact of the connector that connects the base PCB with the main PCB. The PCB has inclined in many cases.
Please check the inclination of PCB. Main PCB might incline if the connecting cable is strongly pulled.

I will check for connection problems of the chip this weekend, but in case that's not the problem and the chip itself is damaged where can i find another one?

[Fudoh]

You will probably need an adapter to use RGB scart cables on the XRGB-mini.

most definitely.

[Konsolkongen]

Fudoh what are your takes on the new XRGB? I know the info is sparse at the moment. Do you know anything about the mentioned scaler chip, is it any good?

[Fudoh]

we've got a new thread on the new G2.... I've mentioned it there: the exisiting Marvell chips (low- and high-eng) have video-optimized scaling engines, so I doubt that the G2 will offer the pixel-perfect scaling of the XRGB's B0 mode. Also the current Marvell chips can't tell 240p from 480i, so Micomsoft would have to build this recognition into the FPGA instead. Overall just an odd choice to chose a Marvell chipset.

[Konsolkongen]

we've got a new thread on the new G2....

Oh, well i'm only here for the XRGB-3 thread ;p Heading over there now.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450

[trunk]

I wouldn't call my problem flicker, it is more of a noise like shaking, like an unstable analogue signal. You see it best when you have a black screen and the menu of the XRGB-2+ up which is just large font big text. Instead of being clear and steady like I can make it on my CRT after a little tweaking of the dot clock on my LCD the text is constantly shaking as if caused by a very bad signal.

Yeah shaking is the correct word. Replace flickeriness with shaking in my previous post since that's what I really meant...

As said I don't have the problem on a VGA CRT monitor but my LCD's VGA input image from the XRGB is very poor in stability. The effect is a little less obvious once you are inside a game with a lot going on, but it is still there plain as day.

This is the difference between xrgb-2+ and xrgb-3 in B1. Xrgb-3 plays nicer with LCD(also DLP), it is solid on my dlp, no shaking at all.

Anyway, I thought that my LCD had a poor overly sensitive VGA input so I thought about fixing it with a VGA to HDMI box.

I thought the same thing but using HDMI instead of component. It's possible that it will help you but the main shaking issue is the xrgb-2+ itself.

Then my only options are either to go with a XRGB-3, or get the DVDO edge.

The answer lies in the xrgb-3. I used xrgb-2+ connected the DVDO Edge and it still shakes.

I think outside of these forums people would brand anyone going through so much trouble for playing old defunct console systems as a special kind of crazy.

Quoted for truth

[kamiboy]

The answer lies in the xrgb-3. I used xrgb-2+ connected the DVDO Edge and it still shakes.

That would have been nice to have known a few weeks back when I was trying to decide which one to go with. But as things are, if the VGA to HDMI scaler still shakes I think I'll wait and see wither the Flame Meister will support scanlines or not, for then I would definitely want to go with that one instead.

[Sargon]

Before I order a D-terminal cable for my PS2, just how unstable is the PS2 in B1 mode? The wiki says there is "extreme sensibility to noise in the signal", but I'm not sure exactly what that means. What would create the noise in the signal?

[Fudoh]

Before I order a D-terminal cable for my PS2, just how unstable is the PS2 in B1 mode? The wiki says there is "extreme sensibility to noise in the signal", but I'm not sure exactly what that means. What would create the noise in the signal?

the D/A converter used by Sony in the PS2 is just crap. On 15khz signals the noise isn't a problem as long as you don't mind using the LPF and adjusting the XRGB's A/D converter to minimize the noise. On 31khz signals (480p) it gets worse. If you're shopping for a new PS2 cable, you're better off with a RGBs cable. You can still run YUV through (and 480p as well), it's just the WAY better cable.

[speedlolita]

I know this is the 3 thread, but I got my XRGB-2+ the other day and have a few Qs.

On the Wiki it mentions a B0 and B1 mode, does this depend on the port the console is plugged into or can you switch it yourself. If so, how?

Also, is the GUI being a bit glitchy normal? I've played about with the dot clock and while it isn't so bad in game it's really noticable on the GUI. If it's normal that's fine.

[Sargon]

Is there any way to correct the horizontal shift in B1 mode?

[brentsg]

I know this is the 3 thread, but I got my XRGB-2+ the other day and have a few Qs.

On the Wiki it mentions a B0 and B1 mode, does this depend on the port the console is plugged into or can you switch it yourself. If so, how?

Also, is the GUI being a bit glitchy normal? I've played about with the dot clock and while it isn't so bad in game it's really noticable on the GUI. If it's normal that's fine.

I have not used a 2 Plus in some time, but I am not familiar with any B0/B1 mode on that unit.

Regarding the dot clock and GUI, yes it's normal.

[Fudoh]

Is there any way to correct the horizontal shift in B1 mode?

no, but you can use a real cheap RGB Interface between the XRGB's output and the TV to correct this. Anything from Extron with a knob for horizontal picture shift works fine and the older ones can be found for a few $$ on ebay.

[Sargon]

Is there any way to correct the horizontal shift in B1 mode?

no, but you can use a real cheap RGB Interface between the XRGB's output and the TV to correct this. Anything from Extron with a knob for horizontal picture shift works fine and the older ones can be found for a few $$ on ebay.

Cool. I was just looking at those. Is there any input lag created by the Extron interfaces (109xi for example)?