Recommended Anime/Manga?

[Op Intensify]

Correct

Enough with the sunglasses, already. If you actually believe that (which I doubt), then I'm sorry about the countless groundbreaking series you've missed out on.

[xbl0x180]

Correct

Enough with the sunglasses, already. If you actually believe that (which I doubt), then I'm sorry about the countless groundbreaking series you've missed out on.

I don't give a damn about these supposed "groundbreaking series," so why would you "feel sorry" about what entertainment I like and dislike? That sounds sad and pathetic

[Raytrace]

the other one which I'm presuming was a French/Jap collab was one where it was kinda Fantastic Voyage (i.e. inside the human body) and there were all these guys with big blobby noses in it - I fuckin loved when that came on TV.

This thing?

WOAH n1! - yeah thats the one - I see it's Belgian - they showed that on Irish kids TV

[xbl0x180]

the other one which I'm presuming was a French/Jap collab was one where it was kinda Fantastic Voyage (i.e. inside the human body) and there were all these guys with big blobby noses in it - I fuckin loved when that came on TV.

This thing?

WOAH n1! - yeah thats the one - I see it's Belgian - they showed that on Irish kids TV

Hahaha. I used to watch this in Spanish as "La Historia De La Vida" ("The Story About Life")

[Hagane]

I don't give a damn about these supposed "groundbreaking series," so why would you "feel sorry" about what entertainment I like and dislike? That sounds sad and pathetic

Maybe nobody would mind you if you didn't repeat the same stupid shit every post you make.

[trap15]

And post that fucking sunglasses smilie

[drauch]

He's just a cool dude, dudes.

[Raytrace]

I respect XbloX180s resistance to modern stuff - hardcore ludditeism and staying loyal to your original 'things' are facets I admire, I'm pretty much exactly the same when it comes to music, cars, well actually just about anything hahaa.

Seriously though, I genuinely do prefer hand drawn art to any digital methods, even just the ease of tweening/reusing etc. has changed the way animation is made imo, these are all things APART from the polygonal/CG elements, which often look COMPLETELY wrong (diffuse shader types look RIDICULOUS beside cel type art).

Sometimes modern things seem to take advantage of the modern tools and do things which would have been very difficult in the 'old days' and make digital techniques look amazing, but from the (admittedly small) amount of post 2000 stuff I've looked at, this often does not happen. So for that reason, I usually DO end up preferring stuff Xblox or Drauch suggest - though I will give the odd 'modern' thing a 'go' :p

[cstle]

Protip: most (and I mean most as in 90% or more) anime is still primarily hand drawn, on paper, then scanned and vectorized and digitally composited with other elements.

Preferring old productions is fine, misinformation (which Xblox has been guilty of several times) about modern productions is not.

[Raytrace]

Protip: most (and I mean most as in 90% or more) anime is still primarily hand drawn, on paper, then scanned and vectorized and digitally composited with other elements.

Preferring old productions is fine, misinformation (which Xblox has been guilty of several times) about modern productions is not.

is it not mainly done with digital tablets? the lines in a lot of the stuff I've seen are completely solid. Whenever I've tried any of the auto vector tracing tools I could get on images, the lines often don't close etc. and basically look shit, then again, I suppose the people making anime probably have way better tools.

Also you do have a point definitely as when I looked at the various making of Eva Rebuild vids, I was quite surprised at how much stuff actually still was 'drawn' though I'm pretty sure they were using tablets, maybe not though.

I finished RahXephon - the last quarter is good, overall while I'm glad I watched it, I would have preferred if it were an 8-10 episode OVA, as the first half in particular REALLY dragged for me.

[cstle]

Protip: most (and I mean most as in 90% or more) anime is still primarily hand drawn, on paper, then scanned and vectorized and digitally composited with other elements.

Preferring old productions is fine, misinformation (which Xblox has been guilty of several times) about modern productions is not.

is it not mainly done with digital tablets? the lines in a lot of the stuff I've seen are completely solid. Whenever I've tried any of the auto vector tracing tools I could get on images, the lines often don't close etc. and basically look shit, then again, I suppose the people making anime probably have way better tools.

Nope. As a standard, it's done on paper. Only specific animators who prefer digital tools use them. The vectorizing is done by human tracing, not auto. Even digitally drawn stuff gets traced for consistency. This isn't a bad thing because animators can give specific instructions to those who trace it or trace it themselves (if it's allowed) if they have a linework style they want to preserve. Here's an excerpt from an interview with Bahi JD, an Austrian web-animator who now works in the anime industry, who worked on the most recent show directed by Shinichiro Watanabe (Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo) Note that he was the only one who animated digitally and given the director this show was by no means some B-rate production:

Ben: You mentioned that you were the only animator animating digitally on Kids on the Slope. Is animation in the anime industry drawn mostly digitally or still on paper? Also, how does the animation process differ between the two methods?

Bahi: Hmmm, I would say that digital animation is growing but the majority still works analog. I know many young digital animators but also many that animate on paper. It really doesn't make any difference for the production company. They can handle both digital and analog work. They will print your digital work on paper when they hand it over to the sakuga kantoku. So, the process doesn't change. The sakuga kantoku will fix some little details (usually analog) to make it fit to the main design and then your work gets traced (digitally) no matter what, it makes the lines look more solid. It depends on the production but that's the usual process. I can imagine that animators like Hisashi Mori get more involved in the further production to keep their line style in the final rendering.

(sakuga kantoku = animator director, in this case they're probably being printed out for the correction stage, which one of the animation director's important jobs)

I recommend reading the rest of that interview too, it's mighty interesting.

Also you do have a point definitely as when I looked at the various making of Eva Rebuild vids, I was quite surprised at how much stuff actually still was 'drawn' though I'm pretty sure they were using tablets, maybe not though.

Unrelated, but Eva Rebuild also works as an argument against digital too though. There are lots of 3DCG elements in them (which are ugly) and they soften the overall image in composite to try to blend them in better, making the 2D linework look too soft and formless. I think they're really hideous movies. Such a waste of Takeshi Honda's mechanical animation direction.

[xbl0x180]

I never said I was an expert in animation and it's always good to get real information on how things are done. When I said CG in anime was detestable, I didn't mean this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO70ZYk7rV4


I mean stuff more akin to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aWEy2JXiZY

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaXvyrQv_5M

The really stilted stuff that doesn't even fit the rest of what is going on on-screen. There are also those "blobby" chara designs and movements that look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtRFNKpbx7w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzkiWChf ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-vhjfGS8bs

It's not just me who has noticed it, but other viewers as well. Now, those could all be hand-drawn and they'd still look like stilted, generic blob junk to me. I just say it's CG because I don't know how else to refer to that particular look and how it is they can retain really smooth movement, as well as the same design/style over and over, without thinking back to computer programs that lets any person use cookie-cutter art

[Raytrace]

interesting I shall reads all of that interview - I found it a total pain in the ass when I traced this:

http://r4ytrace.tumblr.com/post/1547102 ... d-finished

then again I'm crap and I used anchor points instead of actually 'drawing'

[cstle]

Angel Beats is one of the few shows that has computer generated inbetweens (PA Works is a trash studio that uses digital techniques as a crutch rather than a tool, all of their shows are ugly), and that Rosario OP looks like it has tons of actual 3DCG (lol Gonzo etc)...

But K-ON? You'd be better served picking better targets, man. Say what you will about the subject matter, but it is one of the most well-animated shows in TV anime, ever. Kyoto Animation even used movie sized paper for the show to keep things on model, iirc.

It's also a legit good show, don't let the OP fool you. It's not some otaku perv stuff, it's a show everyone can enjoy, and is popular with all audiences in Japan. It even aired on Disney Channel in Japan. Watch it.

[xbl0x180]

Angel Beats is one of the few shows that has computer generated inbetweens (PA Works is a trash studio that uses digital techniques as a crutch rather than a tool, all of their shows are ugly), and that Rosario OP looks like it has tons of actual 3DCG (lol Gonzo etc)...

But K-ON? You'd be better served picking better targets, man. Say what you will about the subject matter, but it is one of the most well-animated shows in TV anime, ever. Kyoto Animation even used movie sized paper for the show to keep things on model, iirc.

It's also a legit good show, don't let the OP fool you. It's not some otaku perv stuff, it's a show everyone can enjoy, and is popular with all audiences in Japan. It even aired on Disney Channel in Japan. Watch it.

Hahaha. I should preceed things by saying "I have K-On! and the rest of that junk on my anime Amazon wishlist" It's good to read from people working in the industry. That interview was informative, esp. the bit about being questioned about rotoscoping and how it can be taken as an insult by animators.

[cstle]

Hahaha. I should preceed things by saying "I have K-On! and the rest of that junk on my anime Amazon wishlist" It's good to read from people working in the industry.

Good. It really is a great show. The subject matter is mundane, but it has the animation and direction chops to pull it off in a spectacular fashion.

The second season is amazing, and the first season is pretty good. You can't go wrong with it.

That interview was informative, esp. the bit about being questioned about rotoscoping and how it can be taken as an insult by animators.

Yeah, the rest of that stuff on that site is also pretty informative. He (Ben) also has tons of stuff about 80s (and pre-80s!) anime, so it'd probably interest you. This is pretty essential to a greater understanding of anime production.

I hope I didn't come off too strongly or offensive in my first post, I was just kinda bothered by some of the things I've seen you post about modern anime, but only bothered in that "bothered because I'm a huge dork that has to correct everyone" sense combined with being an animation enthusiast. I know a lot, probably too much. I can identify animators by cut while watching an episode without even looking at the credits, just going off the style I've seen in motion.

I'll share my knowledge in here from now on. I know about & watch anime from all eras, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s... Hopefully I can get you to appreciate the artistry behind (good) modern anime more along the line!

[xbl0x180]

WOW! I would never be able to tell which segment was done by whom back then and now; that's next level knowledge.

Mind is blown

[cstle]

Animator styles tend to stick with you after you watch a sakuga MAD or two of their stuff and know what to look for... it also helps that Japanese animators tend to be very individualistic. Kinda ironic when you take into mind their typically stoic culture.

Not that I'm able to successfully identify every cut, but it happens more than rarely. I can also only really identify high-movement stuff too, since it's hard to get an idea of stuff that isn't moving a lot.

Having knowledge of anime staff (in general, not just animators but directors, storyboarders, etc too) really helps with finding what to watch. It's not a surefire thing since talented people can make mistakes sometimes, but it's the best method out there. Plus, usually, when talented people make bad things they usually have some redeeming qualities that give you some value for your time.

[xbl0x180]

Hey, so one question I've had about modern anime is: Why do the chara designs (heads and faces) seem as if they were molded after one style? I haven't paid any attention to studios or staff as I should have, so this may have A LOT to do with it. The outline of the heads and facial features use ovals and oblong shapes rather than sharp and angular lines. The eyes, too, have a peculiar, "watery" quality. The colour palette seems "warmer." Hence, the "blob" reference. K-On!'s designs are the most prominent when it comes to this look [to me] and they are why I have avoided watching the series up to this point. I am more into the late 80s and early 90s designs that seemed to have a "crisper" colour palette [and designs that somewhat resembled the original manga source]. The most exemplary of what I really dig are those Kimagure Orange Road OAVs







Or maybe it's the subject matter and the age of the characters...

[cstle]

Well, it's a bit of a trend for sure, going beyond staff. I would say that K-ON probably stands out to you because it's one of those shows that has sort of started a trend in recent years because of how successful it was. But it's not like modern anime is the only one with a trending issue... 80s anime often has that featureset like the character designs in Kimagure Orange Road or Dirty Pair etc. I don't know how to accurately describe it, but it's those "two-part" heads that really say "80s" to me. Relevant parody image starring Mio from K-ON.

But also like in all eras, there are shows also a decent amount of shows that buck trends and do their own thing. But you have to look around for them... a lot of the mainstream-ier stuff that anime fans watch and talk about tends to be unoriginal trend following stuff, and that's what you get an image of as modern anime.

For sharp and angular designs specifically (as well as available on Blu-ray in the US for cheap ), check out Casshern Sins. It has character designs and animation direction by Yoshihiko Umakoshi, one of my favorite people working in anime today. His designs are SHARP AS RAZORS. Look at this knee! (character from a different show, Heartcatch Precure, that he did CD for... Casshern is not about magical girls I assure you)

[xbl0x180]

Yep. 80s was when big hair reigned supreme, so all characters had big hair... with the bangs and everything! I love that look - even the generic stuff that copied it, I will love seeing. The 90s had a lot of exaggerated rounded designs (like in the Ranma 1/2 OAVs) and then they seemed to move toward lean and sharp designs (like those in Saber Marionettes and The Slayers series; the worst being those Burn Up and Battle Arena Toshinden cartoons).




I think that 90s rounded style came to a grinding halt when certain expressions were being used excessively (i.e., the large sweatdrop on the head expression, for example). I'm sure viewers were getting tired of seeing those sight gags and there was a move towards a look that differed from that

[drauch]

K-On may have fluid animation, but the character designs are lazy and lack any sort of detail. I've enjoyed what little I watched, but it's certainly nothing mind blowing and is kinda ugly to look at. I could care less about the animation process; I'm more concerned with how the finished process looks--which is kinda poor.

[cstle]

K-On may have fluid animation, but the character designs are lazy and lack any sort of detail. I've enjoyed what little I watched, but it's certainly nothing mind blowing and is kinda ugly to look at. I could care less about the animation process; I'm more concerned with how the finished process looks--which is kinda poor.

Don't say lazy! (couldn't resist) -- they are character designs suited to being animated. Rounded features, less extraneous fine detail, etc. It makes it easier for the animators to create a nice looking show while staying on model, benefiting both them and the viewer.

Less detail is also not inherently bad, as long as they are still visually comprehensible and striking, which K-ON certainly is. And even with more detailed character designs, animators will drop detail in motion anyways.

I just can't comprehend calling K-ON ugly. It is literally one of the most well-animated TV series in all of TV anime.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

lazy!

Not a very convincing argument. These characters are virtually expressionless. Is the whole thing like this?

[cstle]

lazy!

Not a very convincing argument. These characters a virtually expressionless. Is the whole thing like this?

It was a joke going off the lyrics of the song

Also, no.

[xbl0x180]

K-On may have fluid animation, but the character designs are lazy and lack any sort of detail. I've enjoyed what little I watched, but it's certainly nothing mind blowing and is kinda ugly to look at. I could care less about the animation process; I'm more concerned with how the finished process looks--which is kinda poor.

Don't say lazy! (couldn't resist) -- they are character designs suited to being animated. Rounded features, less extraneous fine detail, etc. It makes it easier for the animators to create a nice looking show while staying on model, benefiting both them and the viewer.

Less detail is also not inherently bad, as long as they are still visually comprehensible and striking, which K-ON certainly is. And even with more detailed character designs, animators will drop detail in motion anyways.

I just can't comprehend calling K-ON ugly. It is literally one of the most well-animated TV series in all of TV anime.

Hahaha. It's probably more a matter of taste rather than skill in some instances. Take, for example, a Thomas Kinkade or Georgia O'Keefe painting: I'm sure it takes a lot of skill to paint those, but the end result just isn't up to scratch from the things I am used to seeing and liking. Hell, if trite and contrived paintings were my thing, then I'd go for those Romantic period paintings or the washed-out Impressionism from one to two hundred years ago. I love Abstract paintings as well, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit through another Jackson Pollock exhibition - and I assume he's one of the best and most representative of the Abstract Expressionists (or was it Klee?). Anyway, Thomas Kinkade and Georgia O'Keefe paintings look ugly to me and other people are baffled by my reaction towards that kind of art. I think this also applies to animation

Drauch, you, and I have seen animated versions of designs and comics by Amano Yoshitaka, Mikimoto Haruhiko, Nagano Mamoru, Otomo Katsuhiro, Takada Akemi, Hirano Toshihiro, Sonoda Ken'ichi, Nagai Go, Ikeda Ryoko, etc., etc. - guys and gals from way back - and there was a distinct style to each. Animation coulda been choppy as hell, cutting tons of corners, missing a lot of details and nuances, but a Matsumoto Leiji design still kinda resembled a Matsumoto Leiji design on a painted cel. I don't see that anymore. I cannot tell one from the other. People are really in love with this new way of designing and animating, which is way too rich for my visual sense. Stuff directed by Kawajiri Yoshiaki and Urushihara Satoshi has this kind of smoothness, but anyone can still tell their works apart.

[xbl0x180]

I just watched a bit of Tenshi No Tamago to smooth things over

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r04X-ImELzc

[MX7]

Haven't watched the anime, but the manga is excellent and totally worth a read. Anything by Makoto Yukimura is a must read.

cool yeah it seems very good and the art is very nice too

I heard it was supposed to be super serious but the first episode seemed a bit WHOAH, CRAZY for me :-/ Not like I should start watching something new anyway.

[cstle]

K-On may have fluid animation, but the character designs are lazy and lack any sort of detail. I've enjoyed what little I watched, but it's certainly nothing mind blowing and is kinda ugly to look at. I could care less about the animation process; I'm more concerned with how the finished process looks--which is kinda poor.

Don't say lazy! (couldn't resist) -- they are character designs suited to being animated. Rounded features, less extraneous fine detail, etc. It makes it easier for the animators to create a nice looking show while staying on model, benefiting both them and the viewer.

Less detail is also not inherently bad, as long as they are still visually comprehensible and striking, which K-ON certainly is. And even with more detailed character designs, animators will drop detail in motion anyways.

I just can't comprehend calling K-ON ugly. It is literally one of the most well-animated TV series in all of TV anime.

Hahaha. It's probably more a matter of taste rather than skill in some instances. Take, for example, a Thomas Kinkade or Georgia O'Keefe painting: I'm sure it takes a lot of skill to paint those, but the end result just isn't up to scratch from the things I am used to seeing and liking. Hell, if trite and contrived paintings were my thing, then I'd go for those Romantic period paintings or the washed-out Impressionism from one to two hundred years ago. I love Abstract paintings as well, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit through another Jackson Pollock exhibition - and I assume he's one of the best and most representative of the Abstract Expressionists (or was it Klee?). Anyway, Thomas Kinkade and Georgia O'Keefe paintings look ugly to me and other people are baffled by my reaction towards that kind of art. I think this also applies to animation

Drauch, you, and I have seen animated versions of designs and comics by Amano Yoshitaka, Mikimoto Haruhiko, Nagano Mamoru, Otomo Katsuhiro, Takada Akemi, Hirano Toshihiro, Sonoda Ken'ichi, Nagai Go, Ikeda Ryoko, etc., etc. - guys and gals from way back - and there was a distinct style to each. Animation coulda been choppy as hell, cutting tons of corners, missing a lot of details and nuances, but a Matsumoto Leiji design still kinda resembled a Matsumoto Leiji design on a painted cel. I don't see that anymore. I cannot tell one from the other. People are really in love with this new way of designing and animating, which is way too rich for my visual sense. Stuff directed by Kawajiri Yoshiaki and Urushihara Satoshi has this kind of smoothness, but anyone can still tell their works apart.

I disagree. There are still flamboyant character designers whose designs carry over to the animation itself. Yoshihiko Umakoshi (whom I gave an example of earlier) and Takeshi Koike to name two really flamboyant examples. Plus, the flamboyant, distinct animators are definitely still around.

A good, distinct recent animation piece that was just released (it's been finished since 2008 but only got shown once at a film festival and never seen again until now) is Hell's Angels. Pretty much the entire movie looks like this. It's fun.

I just watched a bit of Tenshi No Tamago to smooth things over

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r04X-ImELzc

Great movie. Oshii is the best. I spent a lot of money importing the Blu-rays of GITS and Innocence from Japan.

Have you seen Urusei Yatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer? Oshii directed that, and it shows. The movie was so radically weird and nothing like Urusei Yatsura that it made Takahashi mad or something along those lines.

[xbl0x180]

Yeah, I've been watching Urusei Yatsura since AnimEigo licensed it back in the early 90s. Beautiful Dreamer was a joint venture distribution with Central Park Media and I had the videocassette (and now the DVD) when it first came out

Just outta curiosity, what are some of your favourite series, OAVs, and movies? Separately, what anime and manga would you recommend that was made in the last 5-10 years? Who are the renown illustrators on the scene nowadays?