PS4 / Xbox One console war

[Specineff]

I've looked online, but can't see what's the deal with All The Bravest. Can someone please explain? (Unless I'm correct in thinking by BryanM's description, that it's a "game" with near-zero interactivity.)

EDIT: Never mind. Destructoid pointed me in the right direction. F that S.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Yes, there's that little factoid that by the end of December worldwide PS4 sales had reached 4.2M, wheras Xbone was at 3M.

And then there's that other nice quote from yesterday, which seems to have been conveniently ignored by some:
"PlayStation 4 remains the cumulative leader for next gen console sales in the US since the launch on November 15"

Regardless, it's still astounding that the Bone has managed to sell such huge volumes in the US. The system is an abject failure in Europe and the PS4 is seemingly poised to have PS1/PS2 levels of domination in the region, but it looks like things might be a little different stateside.

[BryanM]

I've looked online, but can't see what's the deal with All The Bravest. Can someone please explain?

For those who still need it, a let's play of ATB.

Regardless, it's still astounding that the Bone has managed to sell such huge volumes in the US.

As good a reason as any to defect.

I, I could understand if it were $100 cheaper. But it isn't. So I can't.

[CMoon]

EDIT: Never mind. Destructoid pointed me in the right direction. F that S.

Just laughing at the end quote where Destructoid says the game is 'fucking disgusting'. Awesome review!

[system11]

Yes, there's that little factoid that by the end of December worldwide PS4 sales had reached 4.2M, wheras Xbone was at 3M.

And then there's that other nice quote from yesterday, which seems to have been conveniently ignored by some:
"PlayStation 4 remains the cumulative leader for next gen console sales in the US since the launch on November 15"

Regardless, it's still astounding that the Bone has managed to sell such huge volumes in the US. The system is an abject failure in Europe and the PS4 is seemingly poised to have PS1/PS2 levels of domination in the region, but it looks like things might be a little different stateside.

It's actually quite upsetting, although on the other hand Xbones are sat on shelves for people to buy, and PS4s aren't.

[BulletMagnet]

It's weird they don't seem to exploit DQ near as bad

I'd guess that has something to do with the fact that Dragon Quest has never had as much of a foothold outside of Japan as Final Fantasy has, and the prevailing wisdom nowadays (backed up, I'd assume, by sales data) dictates that non-mobile products intended to appeal exclusively to Japan will rarely be profitable, and everyone's focus must thus be on the global market and what does well all over. That, and/or DQ's historical position as sort of a "comfort food" JRPG whose basic structure has changed very little over the years compared to its competitors (to its overall detriment, in my opinion, though others could make very sound arguments to the contrary), and whose fans would likely not react as favorably to a major departure from convention as FF's base might (as mixed a reaction as FF13 got, do you think we'd even have made it to "Erdrick Returns" if Dragon Quest had ever gone a similar route?).

[wariomona]

Wouldn't it be better if all the consoles sold as well as each other? If Microsoft wasn't here, Sony would be doing what Microsoft were planning with the drm because console gamers wouldn't have a choice. Remember they patented those disc ID chips sometime not too long ago. The price of the ps4 would probably be higher too. Sony's keeping Microsoft from becoming demons AND vice versa.

[Ganelon]

It's weird they don't seem to exploit DQ near as bad, like they're still two separate companies functionally; but anything above "poke at shit and give us your money" beats ATB.

Square Enix seems to be a very conservative company. I'd say All the Bravest has been its only "trash" game so far with its top licenses and even then, it's free now with IAPs unnecessary for completion. It's interesting how Square has at least 3 aces that are almost guaranteed to sell well but seems to be putting them on hold for a rainy day even though there were numerous opportunities to release them in the past decade:

1. Final Fantasy / Dragon Quest crossover RPG
2. Final Fantasy VII remake
3. Chrono sequel
4?. Yasumi Matsuno sequel (Ogre Battle / Tactics Ogre / Final Fantasy Tactics non-Advance)

As for the next-gen consoles, I can't wait for new software to actually get announced. I've heard of folks interested in buying a PS4 Eye (almost a complete waste of money at the moment) just because it's a rare find, which seems irrational—yet unsurprising—to me. The Xbone Kinect is equally pointless right now; I unplugged mine long ago. Of all next-gen accessories, my Wii Balance Board is getting the most use thanks to the recent Wii Fit U.

[Ed Oscuro]

1. Not sure the creative styles / teams would possibly work well together
2. What's Compilation of Final Fantasy VII? It seems they've probably done everything to the franchise that could be expected. Sony, Capcom, Konami, and others spent a lot of time with HD remakes but of course those aren't free. Perhaps Square could farm it out, but I don't see this being blockbuster territory unless something very special happened - and they probably want their A-teams working on projects that move the company forward.
3. Won't be what people expect, so again they might want to hold off on it
4. Same as 3.

[replayme]

Wouldn't it be better if all the consoles sold as well as each other? If Microsoft wasn't here, Sony would be doing what Microsoft were planning with the drm because console gamers wouldn't have a choice. Remember they patented those disc ID chips sometime not too long ago. The price of the ps4 would probably be higher too. Sony's keeping Microsoft from becoming demons AND vice versa.

Exactly.

Look at what's happened with Nintendo when they go unchallenged in their own warped bubble.

[Skykid]

Look at what's happened with Nintendo when they go unchallenged in their own warped bubble.

What warped bubble is that? Sticking to their guns as a gaming company and earning unbelievable amounts of money?

[replayme]

No... More like dictating the terms and conditions of the playing field, and alienating developers in the process. Not taking into consideration what competitors are doing (Live/PSN), and implementing region lock and an account system tied to the hardware.

Also acting like their own software is the bees knees, which acts as a more than adequate substitute for alternative offerings. Especially given that most of their contemporary offerings now lack the rich pallette of their previous gen offerings.

To be honest, it's their arrogance and obsession with earning money which is why they've lost so much money recently, and why they've damaged their credibility in an industry where the reigning contenders are MS and Sony - who are more in tune with what players want (even if it is CoD, GTA etc).

[Skykid]

I think you have a problem dude.

[replayme]

No. You asked me to elaborate, so I did.

If my elaboration causes a problem, it's more to do with the reader (you) and less with the author (me).

[replayme]

It's weird they don't seem to exploit DQ near as bad, like they're still two separate companies functionally; but anything above "poke at shit and give us your money" beats ATB.

Square Enix seems to be a very conservative company. I'd say All the Bravest has been its only "trash" game so far with its top licenses and even then, it's free now with IAPs unnecessary for completion. It's interesting how Square has at least 3 aces that are almost guaranteed to sell well but seems to be putting them on hold for a rainy day even though there were numerous opportunities to release them in the past decade:

1. Final Fantasy / Dragon Quest crossover RPG
2. Final Fantasy VII remake
3. Chrono sequel
4?. Yasumi Matsuno sequel (Ogre Battle / Tactics Ogre / Final Fantasy Tactics non-Advance)

As for the next-gen consoles, I can't wait for new software to actually get announced. I've heard of folks interested in buying a PS4 Eye (almost a complete waste of money at the moment) just because it's a rare find, which seems irrational—yet unsurprising—to me. The Xbone Kinect is equally pointless right now; I unplugged mine long ago. Of all next-gen accessories, my Wii Balance Board is getting the most use thanks to the recent Wii Fit U.

Honestly, how much sway do you think an FF7 remake is going to have with FF7 "diehards" when it's all too obvious that people will bitch at the slightest of changes - like the FF6 port on mobile.

Tbh: Square Enix are damned if they don't and damned if they do.

[Skykid]

No. You asked me to elaborate, so I did.

If my elaboration causes a problem, it's more to do with the reader (you) and less with the author (me).

You've been elaborating on this particular subject without any prompting whatsoever for the last couple of months.

It dominates 90% of your posts regardless of the thread topic, and shows no signs of letting up. It seems unusual to keep singing the same tune at a forum who seem particularly unresponsive to the subject being repeated over and over again. In general, your predictions and claims about the state of the industry players seems very off the mark, plucked out of thin air, and fashioned around what you want rather than what necessarily is.

Additionally, Friendly's well documented single track contributions are bland enough, but off topic has turned into such a Sony love-in of late it's positively puke worthy. You people are actually putting me off my Vita, and I've been quite enjoying it too.

[Ganelon]

1. Not sure the creative styles / teams would possibly work well together
2. What's Compilation of Final Fantasy VII? It seems they've probably done everything to the franchise that could be expected. Sony, Capcom, Konami, and others spent a lot of time with HD remakes but of course those aren't free. Perhaps Square could farm it out, but I don't see this being blockbuster territory unless something very special happened - and they probably want their A-teams working on projects that move the company forward.
3. Won't be what people expect, so again they might want to hold off on it
4. Same as 3.

1. There are certainly potential issues with direction and responsibility, but the game would be a nearly guaranteed cash cow one-off regardless. It's pretty much the RPG equivalent of Street Fighter vs. Mortal Kombat in dream crossovers, except that both brands are owned by one company and there are no major image issues. Other companies are trying their best to mix dissimilar brands together (e.g. Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, Street Fighter X Tekken) while Square Enix is just sitting on a goldmine, or at least a pot of gold.

2. Compilation was everything except the remake itself. The remake was what fans were craving but it's only getting more difficult with higher graphical resolutions. The other companies didn't spend a lot of time with their HD "remakes"—just about all of them were farmed out—because those games were more recent and had negligible enhancements. FFVII would have to be re-rendered and re-drawn but that's why people want it. And the difference here is that FFVII is generally considered the most desired remake of all time in mainstream media lists. No other game comes close, not FFX, Ocarina of Time, DMC, and other popular games that nobody really expected HD remakes for. As for why fans wouldn't complain about the remake, graphical standards for the remake are set low because many find the original's 3D polygons ugly and there aren't nearly as many FFVII "diehards" as a percentage of its total potential audience as there are for FFVI.

3. It's highly doubtful people will hold off on another Chrono game. Chrono Cross was about as different as you could get from Chrono Trigger and it still sold well. Again, on many "which series needs a sequel" media lists, Chrono is high up. As for why a remake of Chrono Trigger may not work as well as a sequel, there's not as much demand for a remake and there are plenty of opinionated "diehards" for CT, just as with FFVI.

4. Tactics Ogre is often ranked as one of the best games of all time in Japanese polls and FFT continued that success. The upside isn't as high with this series—which is why I didn't include it amongst the main 3—but the costs would be lower (a sequel definitely wouldn't have AAA production values).

To reiterate my point, Square Enix spent plenty of time in the past decade trying to draw in new audiences with stuff like FF Crystal Chronicles, Front Mission Evolved (where people were predicting on day 1 that the game would be a bust), and Gyrozetter instead of capitalizing on its huge advantage in RPG brand equity by releasing products with more likely returns. That strategy of expanding its customer base towards younger and Western gamers has in hindsight not seemed to pay off but the benefit is that Square still has all these gems to unload when it's in real trouble.

[replayme]

No. You asked me to elaborate, so I did.

If my elaboration causes a problem, it's more to do with the reader (you) and less with the author (me).

You've been elaborating on this particular subject without any prompting whatsoever for the last couple of months.

It dominates 90% of your posts regardless of the thread topic, and shows no signs of letting up. It seems unusual to keep singing the same tune at a forum who seem particularly unresponsive to the subject being repeated over and over again. In general, your predictions and claims about the state of the industry players seems very off the mark, plucked out of thin air, and fashioned around what you want rather than what necessarily is.

Additionally, Friendly's well documented single track contributions are bland enough, but off topic has turned into such a Sony love-in of late it's positively puke worthy. You people are actually putting me off my Vita, and I've been quite enjoying it too.

You know, I could harp on about your aversion to fresh new experiences, and how you think gaming should stick to tried and tested formulas since time immemorial. You said it yourself that modern games bore you, so it seems absurd as to why you'd even engage on a current/next gen console thread.

You asked me to elaborate, so I did. You gave me that prompt. If you don't like what I have to say, then don't ask me to elaborate. Because I certainly wasn't intending to.

As to whether my "predictions" are off the mark? Well, I really don't care. I said the PS4/XBone combo would bury the Wii U months ago. I said that the 3DS had reached its peak popularity months ago. I said that Nintendo game sales would be hampered by the hardware they're on before Mario 3D World was even released.

You still seem to think Nintendo is a major player with its Wii U. And we've had this conversation before. And when reality slaps your out-dated ideologies in the face, you bury your head (like Nintendo) in the sand.

If it was up to Nintendo, we'd be playing all the latest games on shitty outdated and overpriced hardware, and paying a small fortune for each and every game. Not only that, but due to Nintendo keeping all the best development libraries for itself, we'd have nothing else of note worth playing.

People bitch about MS - and to be honest, I don't even like Kinect - but imagine how much worse off we'd be if we replaced MS with Nintendo as the only viable form of competition.

The fact that Nintendo doesn't even figure in this thread's title says it all.

How's that for a prediction?

[trap15]

Just shut the fuck up please. I think literally everybody on this forum is sick of your shit.

[Skykid]

The fact that Nintendo doesn't even figure in this thread's title says it all.

How's that for a prediction?

Well it's not a prediction, so pretty bad.

[Ed Oscuro]

To reiterate my point

My point is that everybody always thinks "release a remake" is easier than it really is. It takes developer time to do that, dude, and the number of people who will religiously buy anything FFVII-related may not be as big as you think it is. That said, that's probably true of the FF franchise in general, so in that view the company probably needs to expand its portfolio more. With revenue about 1/5 that of Nintendo, but about half as many employees, I'm sure they're capable of diversifying a bit - instead of just digging the hole further.

Square knows this, but the Human Revolution didn't go as well as planned.

[BryanM]

Looks like this is officially the Phantasy Star 4 thread again.

4?. Yasumi Matsuno sequel (Ogre Battle / Tactics Ogre / Final Fantasy Tactics non-Advance)

They already did. It's called Final Fantasy Tactics S, and it's for phones.



Look at those tactics.

Not sure the creative styles / teams would possibly work well together

Eh it'd be fine. Just make it like FF4DS, or just make everyone anime.

Getting someone to lead the project with the freedom and willingness to reach a little higher than a "choose Fight 10,000 times and then Heal 5,000 times and then Renzokuken 2,500 times" mechanical rehash is the rub. I really can't stress how not appalled I am by Persona Q.

Goddamn skill trees.

My point is that everybody always thinks "release a remake" is easier than it really is.

Yeah it uh, really matters with how ambitious you want to be with a FF7 remake. If you want just fixed screens like the original game had, you could just re-render the backgrounds out all over again and have something that looks decent, if the original textures were decent. But if you want a free camera like I imagine everyone wants, you have to make more geometry for the areas in the game you couldn't look at before. I can believe them when they say that would cost a hella lot.

Of course in my mind the remake was released months ago, so...

Chrono sequel

I think it's a dead franchise to them. They didn't take care of it, so now no one cares. The last time they did anything with it was release a DS port of the original game with an extra area tacked on, then whined like assholes when it only sold slightly over 1 million copies over years, when the average game is doing great breaking 250k ever.

[Ganelon]

My point is that everybody always thinks "release a remake" is easier than it really is.

You're preaching to the choir here. I have a programming background (not gaming-related) and would even go a step further and say that people usually think game ports are cheaper than they really are.

However, in this case, Square Enix already spent a lot of money making unwanted side games and Advent Children (despite The Spirit Within's failure) for the Compilation. The firm could have easily put that money—at least everything outside of Crisis Core—towards a sequel.

As BryanM suggested, a fully 3D-space HD FFVII would likely be the most expensive game Square has ever created (not guaranteed profit if they splurge all-out) but that wasn't what many were expecting until recently. I think you're underestimating the power of Final Fantasy VII's brand but I suppose there's nothing besides remake lists and the fact that Crisis Core sold well despite being a mediocre game I could use to convince you otherwise.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution was billed as a AAA game and had huge expectations but the original Deus Ex was never a completely mainstream game in the first place. That disconnect was a major cause for the game failing to meet its lofty goals.

[Jonathan Ingram]

However, in this case, Square Enix already spent a lot of money making unwanted side games and Advent Children (despite The Spirit Within's failure) for the Compilation. The firm could have easily put that money—at least everything outside of Crisis Core—towards a sequel.

A complete Final Fantasy VII remake with a level of visuals comparable to the PS3 tech demo(which is now on the low-end of what can be considered as acceptable for an 'AAA' production) would very likely be a more costly proposition than the entirety of the compilation, and one that's also much more risky.

I think you're underestimating the power of Final Fantasy VII's brand

Final Fantasy VII is a 17-years-old game. You need to be in your mid-twenties to have played it at the time of release. How many still care? Granted, the game has a rabid and extremely vocal fanbase on the internet but such things don't always transform into sales. Would enrolling on such a risky endeavor be really worth it for SE at the time when they struggle to put out mainline Final Fantasy games in a timely manner and a guaranteed money maker like Kingdom Hearts 3 skips an entire console generation?

Nevermind the IPs of yore like Tactics Ogre and Chrono Trigger which hold very little weight in today's market, the former especially effectively representing a niche within a niche.

[Ed Oscuro]

^ Jon spells out what I was going after concisely.

Rabid platformer fans went through something similar back at the time FFVII was an anticipated release. "Why don't people use this new hardware to make a new game in the old styles, but better? Lots of people would buy it." Time moves on and so does the money.

Konami's idea of "appealing" to rabid Castlevania fans was SotN and then a bunch of games in the same vein. Wasn't really what we wanted, by and large, and that approach seems to have basically played out for a while. Yet it almost certainly played out much better than more faithful updates to the idea, as the Wii Rebirth and other games in that style seem to indicate by sales. On top of everything else, everybody's corporate policies (from the console manufacturers to the game developers themselves) seems to be that remakes get digital downloads only, which of course squarely misses the nostalgia bullet people are looking for, but you want to compete for shelf space with Call of Halo and the like.

Myst - goodness knows how many millions were sold back in the day. Remade as realMyst years later, in an incredibly obscure and rather rare version.

Somebody opened the gate and all of Squeenix's "cash cows" done wandered off.

[BryanM]

The tree of profits has to be regularly re-watered with the blood of patriots.

Final Fantasy VII is a 17-years-old game

Thanks I feel ancient now : [

fwiw, foreveralones seem to be a decent bellweather for seeing what's popular. They're the ones shelling out $500 en masse for what are currently ineffective bricks after all.

[Ganelon]

A complete Final Fantasy VII remake with a level of visuals comparable to the PS3 tech demo(which is now on the low-end of what can be considered as acceptable for an 'AAA' production) would very likely be a more costly proposition than the entirety of the compilation, and one that's also much more risky.

Yeah, that was full 3D, which I already covered above.

Final Fantasy VII is a 17-years-old game. You need to be in your mid-twenties to have played it at the time of release. How many still care?

FFVII is the top-selling PSN classic game. And the original sold more than its peer Ocarina of Time, which had a good recent remake showing despite much fewer changes and an unpopular 3DS platform at the time. The situation is not the same as if a 1980 game were remade in 1997 because game enhancements have been increasingly incremental. Therefore, there's still demand and 17 years isn't as old as some might expect. Besides, Nintendo's Pokemon remakes still make a killing. I'm also not talking only about fan voices; there are plenty of mainstream media lists crying out for an FFVII remake.

If you're claiming that an FFVII remake is risky, then you'll need to provide more robust evidence for that. Keep in mind that Square is releasing other eccentric games like Drakengard 3 and Theatrhythm in the meantime instead of the potential titles I listed above so there's clearly some space to work on non-cardinal FF and DQ titles.

Rabid platformer fans went through something similar back at the time FFVII was an anticipated release.

Sure, but I'm not saying those things. It was pretty clear from the 16-bit fallout that 2D sidescrollers were losing mainstream popularity. I can guarantee right now that a Ridge Racer 8 or Gradius VI wouldn't sell well without significant innovations because there's no demand for the series right now. Myst is in a dead genre and would be like Pac-Man or Final Fight making a comeback. The upcoming Deception sequel has the potential to be a niche hit at best based on the performance of its predecessors. On the other hand, Street Fighter IV and Doom 3 were obvious in-demand sequels and they sold well just as expected. Those are the types of near-certain cash cows I'm talking about, and the top 3 games I listed above seem to fit the same criteria.

Of course, there's also truth to "if you don't use it, you lose" when it comes to a game series' popularity. That's why I find interesting Square's strategy of focusing on newer areas at the expense of its developed series.

[Ed Oscuro]

Ganelon, the point of mentioning seemingly dissimilar situations like platformers is not to distract you, but to make the case that the trend of old series falling out of favor for "BUSINESS REASONS" has a long history. People buy all kinds of stuff on PSN - but they obviously don't do it in enough volume to make the case for somebody at Square to make a new development. They're also essentially free money - the hard work of porting the game to the platform being readily done already.

Besides, those purchases of relatively untouched originals actually do not directly support the case for a remake, as they will cannibalize some potential sales of other products. And some people won't make the jump from a PSN-priced reissue to the price Square needs to target to make it worthwhile.

fwiw, foreveralones seem to be a decent bellweather for seeing what's popular. They're the ones shelling out $500 en masse for what are currently ineffective bricks after all.

We don't know that any of these people are likely to be Square enthusiasts given what the now sclerotic Xbox / Halo brand dualism stands for.

As far as there is another gang of foreveralones ready to jump at RPGs, I dunno how tied-in these people are with the current situation to make targeted and relevant demands that Square (or anybody) will be able to pay attention to. People may be out there, but if they are just choosing from what's right before them, that's not going to be of much use in altering modern marketing and development trends.

[Ganelon]

I understand your point but it doesn't really apply to this situation for the reasons I mentioned. FFVII isn't Myst in that it still has high interest in the major platform it's being sold on that we have data for. Cannibalization is a concern but Ocarina of Time was already available on Wii Virtual Console and that didn't seem to hurt the remake's sales too much. Ultimately, there's too much data we don't have but from what I do know and have seen (and have discussed online for almost as long as FFVII has been around), an FFVII remake would be a much more profitable project than Square's current side projects.

[Skykid]

It would be really great if they didn't remake FFVII though. Such an average game.