OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[Blair]

To add scanlines though you must output from the Edge/VP50 in 480p, negating a lot of the advantage of a full video processor.

true, the display would have to upscale to its native resolution from 480p, although this isn't much of an issue for the analog displays that SLGs were originally designed for.

you could however chain two processors together, for instance a VP50+SLG+Edeg and then output at 1080p. (works pretty well whenever I've done that).

On the Edge you also get Framemeister levels of input lag on many retro consoles too.

I saw some notes about that, on my green though Sega Saturn testing indicates it's only 6ms of input lag, maybe because I'm transcoding to component something's different?

[BuckoA51]

it's going a while back but I was pretty sure I tried transcoding to a whole bunch of other signals (including HDMI with OSSC) and that bug was present on every input. I could have sworn Saturn was one such system affected by it. Maybe I'll pull the Edge down from storage and try that sometime (if I can find a transcoder!).

What firmware version is in your unit out of interest?

[Blair]

it's going a while back but I was pretty sure I tried transcoding to a whole bunch of other signals (including HDMI with OSSC) and that bug was present on every input. I could have sworn Saturn was one such system affected by it. Maybe I'll pull the Edge down from storage and try that sometime (if I can find a transcoder!).

I just checked again, I must've mixed up my results with a game that was switching back and forth between 480i and 240p (several games on Saturn do this)

Game Mode on my Saturn indicates 480i - 6ms, 240p - 25ms.

sorry I didn't catch that (both of my super Nintendo's though seem to be solid at 240p - 6ms)

What firmware version is in your unit out of interest?

my Edge Green is v1.00 build 12, I believe that was the only firmware ever available for that unit.

[BuckoA51]

my Edge Green is v1.00 build 12, I believe that was the only firmware ever available for that unit.

Right, just wanted to be 100% sure there wasn't something significant I'd missed. You're certain EE/DE works in game mode on your Green though?

[Blair]

You're certain EE/DE works in game mode on your Green though?

Yes, i'm certain of that. i'll take some pics of the info display for you later.

[fafangus]

nice video fafangus! when using the OSSC do you use its built in de-interlacing? or the pass-through function? (have you tried Virtua fighter 2 out?)

it looks like you're using scanlines, what strengths are they usually set to? (I'm assuming the youtube conversion makes them much less noticeable)

Hi thanks
For 480i I use the passtrough and deintarlace 480i with the CII or my Onkyo
For VF2 I tested it via AV3 wuth sync strike, but no good results, roughly in AV1 works perfect

Yes the original video is encoded via yua, and it's quite like the lossless capture I took, youtube degrade the quality, and it's even seeable with scanline activated....plus I've got audio sync out after 6-7 min...

For scanline I've let the original preset, I don't really bother lol

[Blair]

You're certain EE/DE works in game mode on your Green though?

Yes, i'm certain of that. i'll take some pics of the info display for you later.

here you go BuckoA51, those are the information readouts from the unit. (I was going to make some comparison shots of games with edge enhancement settings but I didn't have time today, but please look at these readouts and take my word for it. image adjustments do work in game mode, for the edge green at least)

Spoiler

[album link: https://imgur.com/a/QUTpW]

[Fudoh]

Is it possible that DE/EE are only active for sources on which the EG inreases the lag from 8 to 25ms ?

[Blair]

Is it possible that DE/EE are only active for sources on which the EG inreases the lag from 8 to 25ms ?

I just tested this idea out, all picture adjustments settings work in Game Mode for every source I've tried, so far...

Code: Select all

DVDO Edge Green, Game Mode Picture Adjustment Compatibility

(Note, All picture adjustment settings work, including brightness, contrast, etc.)



Sony PS2 - 240p - {component NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Sony PS2 - 480i - {component or HDMI transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine 

Sony PS2 - 480p - {component or HDMI transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Original Xbox - 480i - {component or HDMI transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Original Xbox - 480p - {component or HDMI transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Original Xbox - 720p - {component or HDMI transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Sega Saturn model 2 - 240p - {RGB to component transcoder NTSC} [25ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Sega Saturn model 2 - 480i - {RGB to component transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Super Nintendo (1-chip) - 240p - {RGBs or component transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Super Nintendo (SNES 02) - 240p - {component direct from VDP NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Sega Dreamcast - 480p/VGA - {VGA output from blaze vgabox, RGBHV} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Microsoft Xbox 360 - 480p - {HDMI} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Microsoft Xbox 360 - 720p - {HDMI} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Sony PlayStation 3 - 480p - {HDMI} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Sony PlayStation 3 - 720p - {HDMI} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Sony PlayStation 3 - 1080p - {HDMI} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Nintendo Wii - 240p - {component NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

Nintendo Wii - 480i - {component or HDMI transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine 

Nintendo Wii - 480p - {component or HDMI transcoder NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine 



PS Vita TV - 720p - {HDMI} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine

PS Vita TV - 1080i - {HDMI} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine



Nintendo Wii U - 480i - {component or HDMI NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine 

Nintendo Wii U - 480p - {component or HDMI NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine 

Nintendo Wii U - 720p - {component or HDMI NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine 

Nintendo Wii U - 1080p - {component or HDMI NTSC} [6ms input lag], DE/EE works fine 


 

is readability on this list okay? should I change it?

[Chris230291]

Hi. First I'll start by saying sorry I haven't read all 70+ pages, so if this have been mentioned already I apologize. I see there is a barebones DIY kit for this on http://www.videogameperfection.com. Have all the schematics been released yet so that we can build this from scratch? I'm in a lucky situation where I can have a family member make me a board and source many of the components at no cost, providing all the info is there.

Thanks for putting the time into this and making it open.

Chris.

[Fudoh]

just tested this idea out, all picture adjustments settings work in Game Mode for every source I've tried, so far...

thanks a lot! Then this is really a change on the Edge Green compared to the original Edge. I didn't know that....

[marqs]

Unfortunately there are 2 consoles that won't work with the OSSC and my TV: NeoGeo MV-1C and PAL PSX Games (only 288p; 576i works). These consoles do work with the Framemeister or when directly plugged into the TV's SCART input. So I guess the problem is not related to vertical refresh rate issues. Is there anything I could try to make them work?

Both PSX (PAL games) and Neo Geo output 1.5 lines more than 525i spec, so even linedoubled output (3 extra lines) is not guaranteed to be compatible with every display. Also, Neo Geo's refresh rate is way below 59.97Hz.

Hi. First I'll start by saying sorry I haven't read all 70+ pages, so if this have been mentioned already I apologize. I see there is a barebones DIY kit for this on http://www.videogameperfection.com. Have all the schematics been released yet so that we can build this from scratch? I'm in a lucky situation where I can have a family member make me a board and source many of the components at no cost, providing all the info is there.

Both BOM and schematic are available here.

[marqs]

Firmware 0.72 is now out with the following updates:

* Some scanline rendering issues fixed
* Initial input option added
* Advanced timing tweaker added
* R/G/B gain/offset controls added
* Sync filtering improvements (should remove the need for sync LPF/external filters in many cases, and slightly improves NES/SNES compatibility)

[Chris230291]

Both BOM and schematic are available here.

Thanks a lot!. I don't mean to sound ungrateful or lazy but is there any chance of getting a gerber file or something? Anything that can be opened in proteus or eagle?

Thanks again,
Chris

[Blair]

just tested this idea out, all picture adjustments settings work in Game Mode for every source I've tried, so far...

thanks a lot! Then this is really a change on the Edge Green compared to the original Edge. I didn't know that....

no problem! I'm glad I could shed some light on things, DVDO processors are always full of surprises

I just had an interesting thought though, now that we know some systems have input lag issues even with game mode, would it be worth testing out these systems via the virtual console (and retro arch) on WII and WII U?

RA-Wii even has settings that will match the output refresh rate of the original systems. I'm wondering if TurboGrafx, Sega Genesis and N64 games coming out of the Wii's would have input lag issues on The different versions of the Edge. (do we actually know what's causing this problem? I'm assuming it has something to do with output refresh rate, of certain systems being out of spec)

another interesting addition is that the Wii can line double the output of older games, that combined with a scanline overlay could produce a pretty nice ring free image with virtually no added input lag (the recent improvements to the emulation cores of RA-Wii have made them startlingly accurate, especially compared to Nintendo's own virtual console efforts)

(I believe the wii u only scales video output from lower resolutions, but it should have line doubling capabilities in vWii mode) (vWii mode also outputs in RGB 4:4:4 when set to 480p, 720p and higher output modes for vWii I believe use YCbCr 4:2:2)

on a side note, has anyone tested component and RGB output of the Wii and Wii U with the OSSC? (could that fix the RGB limited/full range issues people experience with Wii U 720p output? I've solved that problem myself using my DVDO's but it's an interesting idea)

Also, Neo Geo's refresh rate is way below 59.97Hz.

couldn't that be fixed with the Neo Geo overclock method? (I know a lot of people use that to fix annoying slowdowns with some games)

Firmware 0.72 is now out with the following updates:

excellent marqs! those look like some fantastic additions.

[marqs]

There's a lot of things that can be done with timing tweaker, but efficient use requires some knowledge of the source and underlying logic. Below are a couple examples which demonstrate the possibilities with compatible displays:

* DC aspect fix: 480p -> H. active = 640
* Saturn pixel-perfect 320x240: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 427 -> phase adjustment
* CPS2 pixel-perfect: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 512, H. active = 384, H. backporch = 66 -> phase adjustment
* N64 de-blur (untested): 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 387, H. synclen = 22, H. backporch = 22 -> phase adjustment

NOTE: modified parameters are not yet saved along with other settings. That will be implemented on the next fw with profile support.

[ZellSF]

There's a lot of things that can be done with timing tweaker, but efficient use requires some knowledge of the source and underlying logic. Below are a couple examples which demonstrate the possibilities with compatible displays:

* DC aspect fix: 480p -> H. active = 640
* Saturn pixel-perfect 320x240: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 427 -> phase adjustment
* CPS2 pixel-perfect: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 512, H. active = 384, H. backporch = 66 -> phase adjustment
* N64 de-blur (untested): 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 387, H. synclen = 22, H. backporch = 22 -> phase adjustment

NOTE: modified parameters are not yet saved along with other settings. That will be implemented on the next fw with profile support.

Just to remind you and beg some more: please please have discrete IR buttons for profiles.

[marqs]

Thanks a lot!. I don't mean to sound ungrateful or lazy but is there any chance of getting a gerber file or something? Anything that can be opened in proteus or eagle?

Please PM me if you require gerbers.

on a side note, has anyone tested component and RGB output of the Wii and Wii U with the OSSC? (could that fix the RGB limited/full range issues people experience with Wii U 720p output? I've solved that problem myself using my DVDO's but it's an interesting idea)

I just used WiiU's output to verify OSSC's component video handling at 480p, 720p and 1080p. Isn't WiiU's HDMI output always limited range, not just with 720p? One small detail I noticed is that input color space format should be switched to Rec 709 when using 720p+ component output to get accurate colors.

Just to remind you and beg some more: please please have discrete IR buttons for profiles.

Yes, that's on the cards once profile support gets implemented.

[Chacranajxy]

This is decidedly less technical than most of the stuff in here, but can I just say that I fucking love this thing? I got it a month ago, and for the first time in... I don't even know how long, I'm actually playing old games. Not buying, not tinkering with settings to see how nice I can make it look -- I'm sitting down and having some fucking fun. I think that's pretty cool.


Oh, and I heard rumblings about a line-4x or 5x mode being in the works... is that actually happening?

[bobrocks95]

Isn't WiiU's HDMI output always limited range, not just with 720p?

Yes, it's limited range only via HDMI.

[Blair]

Isn't WiiU's HDMI output always limited range, not just with 720p?

Yes, it's limited range only via HDMI.

True, although some video processors can correct that.

but for people that don't have video processors, component to HDMI conversion is probably the next best thing to solving that issue. (because Nintendo sure as heck won't!) does the OSSC convert the component signal to RGB 4:4:4, or does it output YCbCr 4:4:4 instead?

There's a lot of things that can be done with timing tweaker, but efficient use requires some knowledge of the source and underlying logic. Below are a couple examples which demonstrate the possibilities with compatible displays:

* DC aspect fix: 480p -> H. active = 640
* Saturn pixel-perfect 320x240: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 427 -> phase adjustment
* CPS2 pixel-perfect: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 512, H. active = 384, H. backporch = 66 -> phase adjustment
* N64 de-blur (untested): 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 387, H. synclen = 22, H. backporch = 22 -> phase adjustment

NOTE: modified parameters are not yet saved along with other settings. That will be implemented on the next fw with profile support.

whoa, these look like some very delicious recipes, . especially that Dreamcast aspect ratio fix, and the Saturn pixel perfect. I'm definitely looking forward to trying those. did you have to use some type of timing calculator to come up with these?

hopefully somebody can compile a large list of these for various situations. (maybe even future firmware builds could have some built-in?)

This is decidedly less technical than most of the stuff in here, but can I just say that I fucking love this thing? I got it a month ago, and for the first time in... I don't even know how long, I'm actually playing old games. Not buying, not tinkering with settings to see how nice I can make it look -- I'm sitting down and having some fucking fun. I think that's pretty cool.

do not speak of such things! fun is forbidden here!

lol, I know you mean. when something just works right out of the box, it's a nice feeling not having to fiddle around. but once you're done having "fun" I'm sure you'll make some adjustments, eventually.

[RGB32E]

Firmware 0.72 is now out with the following updates:

* Some scanline rendering issues fixed
* Initial input option added
* Advanced timing tweaker added
* R/G/B gain/offset controls added
* Sync filtering improvements (should remove the need for sync LPF/external filters in many cases, and slightly improves NES/SNES compatibility)

There's a lot of things that can be done with timing tweaker, but efficient use requires some knowledge of the source and underlying logic. Below are a couple examples which demonstrate the possibilities with compatible displays:

* DC aspect fix: 480p -> H. active = 640
* Saturn pixel-perfect 320x240: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 427 -> phase adjustment
* CPS2 pixel-perfect: 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 512, H. active = 384, H. backporch = 66 -> phase adjustment
* N64 de-blur (untested): 240p_L3M2 -> H. samplerate = 387, H. synclen = 22, H. backporch = 22 -> phase adjustment

NOTE: modified parameters are not yet saved along with other settings. That will be implemented on the next fw with profile support.

I can't wait to try out the new v0.72 FW! Thanks Marqs!

[Das Muel]

The timing tweaker's working really well for me Marqs - many thanks for adding it. Sega Model 2 is pretty much perfect now, as are my Mega drive and Saturn. Very much looking forward to profile support now.

[eric90000]

For the average Joe who's not really familiar with the timing tweaker (definitely not me....lol it's totally me), how would you go about using it?

[marqs]

Oh, and I heard rumblings about a line-4x or 5x mode being in the works... is that actually happening?

Eventually, but first there are a couple other features that take most of the time allocated for development.

Isn't WiiU's HDMI output always limited range, not just with 720p?

Yes, it's limited range only via HDMI.

True, although some video processors can correct that.

What's the problem with that in the first place? Despite limited-range RGB being a stupid thing in the context of consumer displays, it's the default format that every HDMI-compliant display should be able to process correctly. If not, then it tells a lot about the compliance tests...

does the OSSC convert the component signal to RGB 4:4:4, or does it output YCbCr 4:4:4 instead?

Y, Pb and Pr components are all captured and digitized at full bandwidth, and then converted to RGB 4:4:4.

did you have to use some type of timing calculator to come up with these?

Dots per line rates are sometimes found in hardware documentation. Alternatively, they can be calculated if you know exact refresh rate, number of scanlines and console video clock (e.g. by checking relevant crystals and PLLs on schematic/PCB).

For the average Joe who's not really familiar with the timing tweaker (definitely not me....lol it's totally me), how would you go about using it?

Basic instructions will be added on the wiki, but without knowing source details it's recommended to only adjust picture position to avoid degrading quality.

[Blair]

What's the problem with that in the first place? Despite limited-range RGB being a stupid thing in the context of consumer displays, it's the default format that every HDMI-compliant display should be able to process correctly. If not, then it tells a lot about the compliance tests...

It's less of a problem for televisions, but depending on the type of TV you have it might be more of an issue. For instance my television has to be set to full range RGB, and that's how I have all of my systems set up. It can accept limited range fine, but then I would have to go to my settings and change it and then re-calibrate and it's all very annoying. Most people probably don't have that problem with their television.

On gaining monitors for PC it's more of an issue, most of them don't play well with limited range RGB. For instance I have a lot of friends that use the VW246H for competitive fighting gameplay, it doesn't like limited range RGB signals and displays them as terribly washed out low contrast images. It's been a popular monitor in the fighting community for a while, and its generally a pretty good monitor with low input lag and decent performance across the board. Most computer and game systems don't have any trouble being set to full range RGB. For some reason Nintendo overlooked the Wii U in this regard (and in many other areas).

I know a few people use component to HDMI transcoding to get around this but there is so many of those on the market and many of them performed badly. Even models of the same series can perform differently. I bought two at the same time (fasmon) one of them outputs at YCbCr 4:4:4 while the other RGB 4:2:2 both of them are the same model, the exact same box with no indication as to what's different.

Having a product with consistency and good quality, like the OSSC, would make a lot of people happy.

Y, Pb and Pr components are all captured and digitized at full bandwidth, and then converted to RGB 4:4:4.

Excellent, I'll be looking forward to using it as soon as it becomes available to me.

[ZellSF]

Most 480p games are high-res 3D games that benefit from a more interpolated look IMO so 480pX2 not working doesn't matter that much to me. It really sucks that probably means 240pX4 won't work on the same devices though.

[Blair]

I don't know about that, I prefer my signals to be as sharp as possible (not overly sharpened of course) so I don't really understand why so many people want a really soft 480p, I have a feeling it's just because most televisions over the last 15 years have had really bad 480p processing and now that's what we think it should look like, it's infected our brains!

soft 480p doesn't look any less jagged than sharp 480p, in my opinion it just looks blurry and jagged. some games have more issues with this than others, (PlayStation 2, some Dreamcast titles)

[BuckoA51]

You definitely can have too sharp IMO. For example I tried the "pixel perfect" mode on the Saturn in the new firmware, hated it, looks nothing like a CRT.

Each to their own I guess.

[Blair]

even with scanlines?