Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sumez]

Man, you're really making Contra 4 sound easy.

Well, I just started on it, so I guess it'll be easier eventually, but right now I find that the difficulty is pretty well balanced. Definitely putting up more of a fight than Contra 1 was the first time. In general I only really think it makes sense to compare it to Contra 1 and The Super Contra, it's not too related to The Contra III in comparison.

[Squire Grooktook]

Oh, I didn't mean to say that Contra 4 is easy. It can certainly be a nasty game, especially without a route. Just that it doesn't have the same balls to the walls sense of danger and manic action as 3.

But yeah I agree, it's nothing like C3. It's more a spiritual sequel to C1, an attempt to fix the "too easy" issue and make a real master course out of that game. In terms of speed, level structure, and boss distribution, it doesn't have much relation to C3's brisker pace and proto-Treasure setpieces. It's Contra 1 Remix: 1cc's are actually in question label

[Mortificator]

I'd be shocked if anyone at WayForward understood or cared about that. There are people who thought four simultaneous players might be something other than terrible in a run & gun, and its droppings are still in the final game. Contra's just another license passed to them.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Stage 1 still takes lives from me here and there, years after 1lc'ing it

If you're running to the right and shooting stuff they shouldn't be much of a problem at all, let alone a hell of one. :/ Uppers miss an advancing player by default, lowers are an easy jumping downshot. I guess if you can handle the stage consistently you've got some method figured out, but it sounds odd they're what stood out to you and not the constant risk of runners spawning/shooting at the worst times.

https://youtu.be/g3vXNNjEAHI
The only way I ever die in this section is if I forget about one of the three fixed snipers (ignoring the very first one when you are still invul), because if you don't commit to killing them within a fraction of a second of them becoming visible, the screen turns into a clusterfuck of death until they are gone. All this talk about the running zakos makes me feel like I am looking at a slice of toast and you guys are seeing the image of Christ in it.

The reason I compare the game to C4 is that C4 stages play out the same way as that video, except they are more intricate and involved, and are generally harder.

I'm still surprised you'd prefer a cutscene of the protagonist vehicularly fucking up some zako and a midboss to actually vehicularly fucking up some zako and a midboss, tbh.

A) I think the tank is stupid-looking and boring, not satisfying or cool
B) Even if I loved it I would still hate that it takes away from the regular Contra gunning in a game that barely has any of that to begin with. Similarly I hate how Megaman X8 devotes an entire stage to the ride armor, not because I don't like the ride armor, but because the game is short on stages already and I'm here to play Megaman (the tragedy of a game that is too short ).

If you're referring to Hard, and you've got some easy-going safe tech... well first, congratulations! And second, uh, why? There's a few HC/SS bosses I find numbingly tedious that are 110% impossible to kill any faster, so I can't relate.

By moving appropriately you can keep the boss from attacking for a quite a while and lure it to the appropriate spot where you are prepared to get a shot in. I wouldn't call it easy, but it's the only reliable safe method I know of. And while I fucking love manipulation like that, I fucking hate that I am manipulating the enemy in order to drag out the fight (see also AM2R's awful Metroid battles).

[Skykid]

I'm as equally dismayed hearing people speak ill of Contra 4 as I am of Contra III.

III is arguably the most perfectly formed entry in the series, disregarding its brief and innofensive top down maps: an inspired, violent, and highly varied curve that balances pressure and skill to a fine shine.

I think stage 3's purple-black 2000AD factoryscape, billowing acrid smoke as you dance across beams and cling to rotating blades before being forced vertically up a building, through the cloud and into a staging area where a screen tall android wrenches the wall open and sprays magnetic bombs all over the room, is perhaps my favourite Contra stage of all.

I take some exception to the suggestion that 3 is particularly tough though, even when played on hard. Meaning no offense by mentioning it, I dusted hard in a handful of concerted efforts across 2 or 3 days. Perhaps 4 hours playtime. And yes, I did play it when I was a kid fairly extensively, so I had a good memory of it, but I still don't consider it too taxing.

From experience, I'd definitely class Contra 4 as the harder game. It's far more strict and far less forgiving. Its memory tests require a lot of investment and there's a heck of a lot to learn.

I hate it when people knock Wayforward for Contra 4: that's total fucking nonsense. It never hit 3's highest points, but it comes close plenty of times. It's a very well defined game with a few minor flaws here and there, but certainly no dealbreakers.

They did a fine job.

[Mortificator]

A dead area in the center of the field is a major flaw for an action game to have.

[BIL]

Again Jack, I'm surprised you'd apparently rather watch a demo of your character invincibly tearing their way into the combat zone than actually invincibly tear your way into the combat zone (Barrier and tank alike).

The only way I ever die in this section is if I forget about one of the three fixed snipers (ignoring the very first one when you are still invul), because if you don't commit to killing them within a fraction of a second of them becoming visible, the screen turns into a clusterfuck of death until they are gone. All this talk about the running zakos makes me feel like I am looking at a slice of toast and you guys are seeing the image of Christ in it.

You die sometimes? Sorry, "clusterfucked to death?" In the game's first thirty seconds?

No, that's fucking rad, don't you think? Even in your relatively fearful and halting (but entirely sound!) demo, my eyes were instinctively flicking from the player to either screen edge and back, out of learned anticipation. Because to modify you slightly, that whole stretch is already a clusterfuck of death, deferred pending crowd RNG and player reaction.

I don't even remember where those snipers are exactly, let alone dread failing to kill them within a painfully narrow margin of error, because I (as Lance suggested) attack aggressively. Or for you purists, I greet them with style. Behold:

Here's my 4.5MB Animated GIF, bitches! Eat it! Fuck!

Spoiler

Mwah! Running to the right and artfully glutting the maw of greedy-eyed Death, even as it nips at your heels and lurks somewhere ahead. It's fuckin' beautiful. I am become Death, destroyer of Gunwalls.

By moving appropriately you can keep the boss from attacking for a quite a while and lure it to the appropriate spot where you are prepared to get a shot in. I wouldn't call it easy, but it's the only reliable safe method I know of. And while I fucking love manipulation like that, I fucking hate that I am manipulating the enemy in order to drag out the fight (see also AM2R's awful Metroid battles).

The Hard version? You can certainly induce a stalemate where neither of you are able to attack, but it'll be persistently attempting to move in on you during this, and when it does it'll chase you out of your position. Anyway, just seems a bit unfair to call it tedious and dumb when it's actively keeping you on the run like that despite tenacious attack being entirely reasonable (and IMO preferable).

I take some exception to the suggestion that 3 is particularly tough though, even when played on hard. Meaning no offense by mentioning it, I dusted hard in a handful of concerted efforts across 2 or 3 days. Perhaps 4 hours playtime. And yes, I did play it when I was a kid fairly extensively, so I had a good memory of it, but I still don't consider it too taxing.

Define "dusted," Sky Boy. It's no secret III overcompensates with extends and bombs, making even a Hard clear entirely attainable with a modicum of grit. To clarify, I'm talking about S-Rank play worthy of the Contras, AKA not dying like a bitch with the mission unaccomplished. In that context III/Hard is riveting. It's "go between life and death without getting killed," not "go halfway, get fucked up, but no pressure the reserve troops will pick up the slack!"

I'm as equally dismayed hearing people speak ill of Contra 4 as I am of Contra III.

Keep in mind this current tangent was kicked off by resident lovable rogue Jack calling Contra III "weak" "dumb" and "tedious" among other hyperboles, so don't take reprisal attacks on 4 or HC/SS too seriously. It's all relative. ;3

[Skykid]

Ah yes, S Rank 1LCs aren't my field, I thought Jack was just complaining about the general difficulty. I really don't understand the gripe with the snipers though, I didn't imagine them as an issue for anyone.

A dead area in the center of the field is a major flaw for an action game to have.

Please just don't. There are literally maybe two instances where the twin screen dead area causes a credible issue - but it's neither pronounced enough to write home about or serious enough that it can't be quickly learned away.

I seem to only remember bullet trajectories being slightly unforgiving as they passed from top to bottom very early on (stage 2's vertical ascent). My real criticism are the actual occasional REAL errors, like respawning over pits - that stuff was pretty frustrating.

On the whole though it's a valiant effort and result. It's as fast and aggressive as Contra should be, and while it's memorisation heavy, still has all the action and required pace. And its abundant set-pieces are admirable.

As a side note, its 3D tunnel stages are far superior to original Contra's or Contra IIIs top-down romps.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'll leave this to BIL and Skykid. Jack is obviously incapable of comprehending that a difference of opinion and taste, and must continuously argue.

You know level design is one of the most fundamentally subjective things there is Jack? I mean sure, some things are objective and can be analyzed, but at the end of the day one mans "treasure-esque fun factor" boss fight is another mans boring, safe spottable gimmick that becomes entirely worthless on the second encounter Seriously if you think the tank is somehow worse than the cyclops in hardcorps stage 1 where you stand in the middle of the screen for 30 seconds every time...well you must really love standing in place and doing nothing. Can't say I'm a fan of that sort of thing.

Well, I'll quit after this one comment:

The only way I ever die in this section is if I forget about one of the three fixed snipers (ignoring the very first one when you are still invul), because if you don't commit to killing them within a fraction of a second of them becoming visible, the screen turns into a clusterfuck of death until they are gone.

Although you exaggerate ("fraction of a second", "clusterfuck of death" lol), you've just described in a nutshell why C3's level design is generally superior to C4, Hardcorps, and SS. Pushing forward constantly and aggressively is the optimal strategy. Whereas in C4's first stage (and beyond, the alien lair is sadly a victim of this too with its mouth and hatchery placement), 90% of the turrets and snipers are optimally taken out by edging up to where they first appear on the screen, and sniping them before you enter the danger zone. C3 is faster paced, more agressive, and it's (much more omnipresent) rng elements force more dynamic reactions and improvisation. Give it up, nerd.

It's not a matter of seeing Christ in Toast: you just yourself described a very simple but very strong and consistent fundamental that puts Contra 3 above many of its peers within the genre.The Alien Lair takes this to its extreme, with an utterly insane opening gauntlet of platforming and combat that forces you to push with breakneck speed through tuns of crazy shit to have even a chance to survival.

also @Skykid: I stress Contra 4 is a fucking fantastic game with great fundamentals of its own. I just put it a few tiers below C3, personally. But that depends on what you're into, of course. C4 arguably has the best platforming in the series, but I think its combat and bosses are slightly weaker than the 16 bit and onward titles.

[Skykid]

also @Skykid: I stress Contra 4 is a fucking fantastic game with great fundamentals of its own. I just put it a few tiers below C3, personally. But that depends on what you're into, of course. C4 arguably has the best platforming in the series, but I think its combat and bosses are slightly weaker than the 16 bit and onward titles.

Yes, I agree, I'd also put it a certified notch on the shotgun below the likes of Contra 3, Hard Corps and SS - but only a notch. It's about flow: 4 has been structured in a different fashion. It's more an extreme Run n' Gun memoriser that requires you to map your route and weaponry and stick rigidly to the plan - and that requires no small amount of dying. But it's one of the most natural 1CCs in the Run and Gun spectrum precisely because of this. You inch forward until you got it down pat, and then you're suddenly free to speedrun the shit out of it, and it's wonderfully rewarding - as this kind of gaming is - to be felling screens and bosses with pace that were previously making you look subpar.

Contra III and HC have a lot more room to take things out on the fly because they emphasise wide spaces, big weapons and ball crushing speed. 4 has a lot more in common with SS than those two.

I just hate it when people who got too frustrated too early on and dumped it before cracking its mould decide that it must be the fault of the game and therefore it's a poor mock Contra. It isn't. Elitist as this may sound, if you didn't 1CC C4 when you finished it, you just didn't play it right. It's completely geared toward a one-credit clear, exactly like SS, and practically leads you by the hand to do just that.

[Sumez]

I'd be shocked if anyone at WayForward understood or cared about that. There are people who thought four simultaneous players might be something other than terrible in a run & gun, and its droppings are still in the final game. Contra's just another license passed to them.

I'm honestly extremely surprised how well WayForward seemed to understand what works in these kinds of games. When I first tried Contra 4 it came across to me like a clumsy attempt at a love letter with nothing more to it, but after delving into it for realsies, I now see that WayForward fucking knew what they were doing. Why none of their other games are even close to this league is beyond me. Ever tried Aliens: Infestation? Don't.

[Squire Grooktook]

Play Shovel Knight if you want to see more from the guy who made Contra 4 good. Founder of Yacht Club was head level designer for both games. We spoke in person at Comic Con about the titles a few years ago.

He also confirmed what I said prior, that C4 was deliberately designed to be a throwback to C1, and an attempt to step away from the treasure/boss-rush style that took root in C3 onward.

[Skykid]

Playing Shovel Knight right now, at a guess I'd say I'm about halfway through. A thoroughly clever and almost perfectly executed revitalisation of 8-bit platform action, with bells on.

I'm not sure if I'm as completely seduced by it as certain other high class indies of recent years - I have a serious gamerboner for playing Hotline Miami really really well - but I certainly appreciate how amazingly creative and well-formed it is.

[Sumez]

Play Shovel Knight if you want to see more from the guy who made Contra 4 good. Founder of Yacht Club was head level designer for both games. We spoke in person at Comic Con about the titles a few years ago.

Was actually gonna look up the credits for both games after finishing my post, but forgot about it, as I had a hunch. Shovel Knight also has that spark of what actually makes these kinds of "retro" games good, rather than just looking good and expecting the rest to come along on its own. Though I wasn't too impressed by it until I played the "second loop", which feels completely like how the game should have been in the first place.

Skykid: Do yourself a favor and finish Shovel Knight on New Game+. It's not really much tougher, but removing the pace killer of the coin collecting and upgrading, only having one checkpoint per stage, and no life-up items at all (except from one during the boss rush) all makes the game so much more polished.

[Skykid]

Play Shovel Knight if you want to see more from the guy who made Contra 4 good. Founder of Yacht Club was head level designer for both games. We spoke in person at Comic Con about the titles a few years ago.

Was actually gonna look up the credits for both games after finishing my post, but forgot about it, as I had a hunch. Shovel Knight also has that spark of what actually makes these kinds of "retro" games good, rather than just looking good and expecting the rest to come along on its own. Though I wasn't too impressed by it until I played the "second loop", which feels completely like how the game should have been in the first place.

Skykid: Do yourself a favor and finish Shovel Knight on New Game+. It's not really much tougher, but removing the pace killer of the coin collecting and upgrading, only having one checkpoint per stage, and no life-up items at all (except from one during the boss rush) all makes the game so much more polished.

That sounds very interesting. I actually think the way that gold is instrumental to all things in the game, including survival, is implemented in a very clever - and dare I say it, original - way. But certainly, it slows the pace of the game down and there's an interruption factor to it in a way, since I'm always conscious that I need to be collecting it just as much as I'm focused on progression.

I'm assuming New Game+ only appears after finishing it once?

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

You can use a cheat to start on new game+ from the get-go.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Not a fan of Shovel Knight at all. The platforming is generally pretty good but levels tend to be basic and not demanding. It has the same problem many modern games have, where the whole game feels like a warm-up to some really exciting levels that turn out not to exist. Combat is simply a chore, a problem exacerbated by the insane design decision to make the player bounce backwards after hitting enemies.

Ah yes, S Rank 1LCs aren't my field, I thought Jack was just complaining about the general difficulty.

My opinion of Contra III is that it has one amazing bike stage, and nothing else that stands out at all among the slew of Contra games that now exist. I don't care about the difficulty because I don't care enough to want to invest time in it. The whole thing about snipers just resulted from me trying to figure out why these jokers were praising the first stage of Contra III as if the running dudes being slightly randomized was the greatest design decision ever made in videogame history, apparently hand-delivered to the Konami offices by Yagawa himself, who rode in on a flaming chariot pulled by the physical incarnation of the concept of fun. As far as I can tell, it's just the typical first level of a Contra game, no more and no less. It sounds like apparently I was supposed to be fearfully scanning the edges of the screen for enemies, but I've never ever done that in any Contra game except a couple spots in Super and 4 so uh, lol.

Btw BIL, that wasn't "fearful and halting", that was "playing on autopilot because improvisation is brutally punished." I stop forward movement frequently not from fear but because that's the minimal-effort method to ensure that nothing on the left side can ever pose a threat.

You can certainly induce a stalemate where neither of you are able to attack

Right, and then you only allow it to attack when you have the ideal positioning. And then you hate yourself and hate the game for making this the safest and most reliable tactic. And then you die the first time you get to Terminator Family Matters and just say fuck it because you're still angrily thinking about which jackass at Konami thought a Boo from Super Mario would be a fun addition to a level where you can't turn around easily, and you realize you don't really care that much about seeing the bike stage on Hard and you know you don't give a fuck about the stages after the bike stage, and then you go play the Shock Troopers bike stage instead.

you've just described in a nutshell why C3's level design is generally superior to C4, Hardcorps, and SS. Pushing forward constantly and aggressively is the optimal strategy.

That's not what I described. What I described is an enemy which, if you are not pre-emptively attacking it from memory, is more dangerous than anything else in the first half of the game. Edging up to where these snipers first appear is the "optimal" way to handle them for someone who hasn't already memorized the stage. PROTIP: If you want me to move forward in your game, don't include enemies who brutally punish the player for entering unknown territory.

Nothing about CIII pushes me to play aggressively. Stages 2, 3, and 5 (half the game) do precisely the opposite. Stage 4 pushes me to play aggressively, but only does so by auto-scrolling, which apparently warrants disparaging comments, although that is news to me. I don't think Stage 1 does a single damn thing to encourage me to push forward aggressively, again quite the opposite with things like the dogs which literally only exist to discourage forward movement. The only way I can imagine the stage having this sense of CHAOTIC DANGER you keep yammering about would be if I tried to play aggressively. Really all your posts about this have seemed to express the sentiment that "it's fun if you play it in the most unsafe and suicidally reckless way possible." But apparently I just don't get it, maaaaaaan.

[BIL]

the concept of fun

Whoa! Cheap shot Jack. I'm not the proponent of fun factors here, Treasure-esque or otherwise. Fun's too limited a word for nerdcore of this level. I'll say things like "involving" or "intense" or "doesn't make me wait thirty seconds for the next boss to arrive."

Btw BIL, that wasn't "fearful and halting", that was "playing on autopilot because improvisation is brutally punished." I stop forward movement frequently not from fear but because that's the minimal-effort method to ensure that nothing on the left side can ever pose a threat.

It's a failure to improvise that'll get you punished, or alternatively, force you to creep forward like a mouse with the peashooter (a fate punishment enough to me, tbh). Run to the right while killing stuff and it'll all work out. Stop moving and congrats, you're now easy pickings for snipers and the crowd, and if you don't pull off that white-knuckle kill shot you inferred earlier (as I nonchalantly drown the targets in SS fire while exploding their perches), you are indeed gonna get clusterfucked. I even made a GIF. I could make five more if you like. They'll all play out a bit differently but it's okay, nothing the game can conjure is anything reflexes and a little creative downshotting won't fix (to say nothing of the dogs).

I'm not going to put words in my fellow joker Squire's mouth, but it's this endless danger and replayability that won my admiration. It's almost nowhere to be found in Hard Corps and Shattered Soldier - they consistently lack the runner/shooter spawn intensity and perfect placement of set hazards and terrain complications (the latter referring more to st6 hive). Creeping forward is totally okay in those games, even though I don't, because I like to figure out how things work and then tear them apart.

Right, and then you only allow it to attack when you have the ideal positioning. And then you hate yourself and hate the game for making this the safest and most reliable tactic.

It's not the safest or the most reliable tactic. This sounds a lot like theoryposting from someone used to the vastly more docile Normal version of the boss, who gave up without finishing the stage or the rest of the game and never had to deal with the wall smoosher ever again, let alone polish his technique.

Regardless, st1 streets and the st3 wall smoosher both... you seem to be arguing they're 1) viciously punishing of intelligent aggression and 2) tepidly tedious. I can totally get not being motivated to play a game at much of a decent level, but I can't help noticing a double standard here. This is a technical obsessive's game. Your Normie's "unsafe and suicidally reckless" is my experienced player's calculated and consistently effective line of attack. You complain about having to memorise or die, then praise Hard Corps and Shattered Soldier... memorise or die is 90-95% of those games. I hate saying this about them, but for whatever reason Nakazato/co lost it. III/Hard's the only member of this trilogy where knowing the layout of stages and patterns of bosses is consistently the bare minimum, with honed technique and improvisation needed to ensure authoritative play.

Basically III/Hard = pro gear spec. Hard Corps/Shattered Soldier = fake difficulty milquetoast happy hour. In relative terms, of course.

you're still angrily thinking about which jackass at Konami thought a Boo from Super Mario would be a fun addition to a level where you can't turn around easily, and you realize you don't really care that much about seeing the bike stage on Hard and you know you don't give a fuck about the stages after the bike stage, and then you go play the Shock Troopers bike stage instead.

Boo... wait, is this about the dogs again? Shoot them until they die. I'll bold a line above. See also GIF.

Shock Troopers? Cracking game, has sweet F.A. in common with Contra, why wouldn't I just play both?
The "for an autoscroller" crack wasn't disparagement by the way - you might notice I and many others on this site tend be of the autoscroller-fancying persuasion! But you have to admit when the format is dropped into non-autoscrolling games the results can often blow! (Super Shinobi II st2.2, Hard Corps Fucking Jungle Boss). 2010 Street Fighter would be another sidescroller with non-awful, generally quite excellent autoscrollers. III's bike stage is great, you just overstate its greatness relative to the others.

[Mortificator]

He also confirmed what I said prior, that C4 was deliberately designed to be a throwback to C1, and an attempt to step away from the treasure/boss-rush style that took root in C3 onward.

Of course Contra 4 was designed to be a throwback to the original Contra. Who needs confirmation? The game could scarcely be more obvious about what it's copying from, as typical of these retro rehashes. But what you said above was that it was designed to be Contra 1 The Hard Mode, which I wouldn't bet my spread gun on.

There are literally maybe two instances where the twin screen dead area causes a credible issue - but it's neither pronounced enough to write home about or serious enough that it can't be quickly learned away.

There are a lot more than two times that a player, an enemy or an attack crosses the no-render zone. Which two are you thinking of?

[Skykid]

My opinion of Contra III is that it has one amazing bike stage, and nothing else that stands out at all among the slew of Contra games that now exist.

I'd say you were mad, but I think this is more a case of not having spent enough time or enough effort to appreciate the game, or perhaps you're not really geared to appreciate it, depending on your sensibilities.

Shit happens I guess.

There are a lot more than two times that a player, an enemy or an attack crosses the no-render zone. Which two are you thinking of?

Yes, but it's very rarely an issue at all. As I mentioned, stage 2's vertical ascent, from memory, was a part I remember feeling was slightly more difficult than it should be thanks to the dead zone, and I think the other was on the rocket boss whereby certain jumps just didn't take hold.

But even then, I never really had a gripe with the dual screen layout or overcoming what you're describing as some kind of major flaw. It's not. A little learning is all it takes - as is the case with the rest of the game - and it's not a problem to fire when necessary to clear threats and make headway.

As I already stated, there are actual flaws in the game (although thankfully not too prominent) where you can get ripped off by respawning over pits and enemies or jammed against the lower screen during upward movements, leading to your death. They should have ironed those nasties out in play testing. Thankfully it rarely becomes a run breaker because as long as you have the game figured out it gives you so many 1ups that even a sudden uncalled for execution won't take the wind out of your sails.

[Sumez]

The biggest problem with the dual screen layout is that we will never get a proper console release of the game

[Volteccer_Jack]

Run to the right while killing stuff and it'll all work out. Stop moving and congrats, you're now easy pickings for snipers and the crowd, and if you don't pull off that white-knuckle kill shot you inferred earlier (as I nonchalantly drown the targets in SS fire while exploding their perches), you are indeed gonna get clusterfucked. I even made a GIF. I could make five more if you like. They'll all play out a bit differently but it's okay, nothing the game can conjure is anything reflexes and a little creative downshotting won't fix (to say nothing of the dogs)

Would that it were so. It's very easy to stop moving, nothing other than the snipers will have a real shot at killing you. And the only two ways "it'll all work out" are if you use your powers of precognition to deal with the snipers before they fire, or if you inch forward slowly and deal with them from the maximum possible distance. Seeing as your GIF did one of those two things, it has convinced me of precisely nothing. All I see is a very typical Contra first stage with a couple memorization walls added to kill Hard mode first-timers.

Regardless, st1 streets and the st3 wall smoosher both... you seem to be arguing they're 1) viciously punishing of intelligent aggression and 2) tepidly tedious. I can totally get not being motivated to play a game at much of a decent level, but I can't help noticing a double standard here.

There's no double standard. When you viciously punish intelligent aggression, you strongly encourage thoughtless cowardice and therefore tedium.

If your argument is that CIII Hard is the hardest/best Contra game provided the player is already a veteran expert at all of the games, then sure maybe, but I'll never find out because it's the game that does the most to discourage me from getting to that point, and I highly doubt it has anything over C4/Rebirth Hard modes, and I'm only missing out on 3 pretty short stages in any case.

You complain about having to memorise or die

Not my intention. I'm simply arguing that "memorize or die" is diametrically opposed to the sense of danger that you guys are claiming the game has, and am attempting to discern the source of this sense of danger, which I have never experienced playing Contra III.

Boo... wait, is this about the dogs again?

I'm talking about that dude in the second stage who only becomes vulnerable to attack when you face directly away from him. Luckily bombs exist so I don't have to put up with this game designer's inane bullshit.

[Squire Grooktook]

lmao Jack is so mad. Most of the strategies he describes are just straight up ineffective, sub-optimal for survival, or don't even work (this coming from not one but two posters who have 1lc'd hard, vs someone who's never made it past stage 3), so it's obvious he just hasn't played the game (on hard) enough to know what he's talking about*. No idea why he keeps trying to argue about a game he clearly doesn't know much about. Just drop it, kid. You can't be an expert on everything.

*I suppose that's natural though. A big part of why Contra 3 is so good (besides the "keep moving or die" enemy placements) is the rng. Or, more specifically it's usage**. There are very few side scrolling actioniers I've played where random elements so consistently force improvisation and reaction at high speed, and where routes feel so variable and dynamic, even when you've been playing it for years. I suppose somebody who hasn't put much thought into that vital aspect of game design (as many bad and wrong people haven't) wouldn't appreciate it if they hadn't played the game enough to realize how frequently it'll throw you for a loop and induce panicky chaotic nightmares. Ninja Spirit is probably the only ground-bound blaster on the same level, and perhaps Daimakaimura a notch below.

**This is also why stage 1 is so much better than every other Contra stage 1. Making it through on hard requires a different reactive motion each time. When is that all important zako bullet that forces you to perilously jump or duck admist snipers and dogs gonna come? the random number generator, that's who. I suppose the same could be said of Contra 1 nes and Super Contra arcade, but those games are much slower (and easier in C1's case). Contra 3 brings the laser speed***.

***Hardcorps stage 1 almost manages a similar amount of random chaos + speed, except much eaiser (less threatening to a veteran) and after about 5 joyful seconds a giant robot cyclops shits the bed with one of the worst minibosses in history.

Playing Shovel Knight right now, at a guess I'd say I'm about halfway through. A thoroughly clever and almost perfectly executed revitalisation of 8-bit platform action, with bells on.

I'm not sure if I'm as completely seduced by it as certain other high class indies of recent years - I have a serious gamerboner for playing Hotline Miami really really well - but I certainly appreciate how amazingly creative and well-formed it is.

Yeah. It's not an "arcade style" game, more along the lines of consolized Mega Man type affairs, so it doesn't grab me with that high-risk, high-reward, single sitting play session intensity. But, it is a wonderfully designed platformer which makes up for its comparatively simple combat with some excellently perilous platforming and brawltastic boss fights. The tracking of speed, gold, and death also makes for a great consistent pseudo-score counter that encourages you to give it your all (and actually care) in each stage. I'd say it's a vast improvement over that formula, at least.

There are a lot more than two times

There might be less, actually.

get good, scrubs

[BIL]

Would that it were so. It's very easy to stop moving, nothing other than the snipers will have a real shot at killing you.

Well, you've said the snipers were giving you hell and that if they're not eliminated with painstaking diligence, you'll find yourself in a clusterfuck of death. Doesn't sound nice. Since the snipers aren't much of a problem in isolation, I can only assume you're getting fucked by the crowd element (cluster fucked, as it were).

And the only two ways "it'll all work out" are if you use your powers of precognition to deal with the snipers before they fire, or if you inch forward slowly and deal with them from the maximum possible distance. Seeing as your GIF did one of those two things, it has convinced me of precisely nothing.

As with most videogames, that "precognition" (a rather crude type amounting to "hold right and run those motherfuckers over") is synonymous with experience. I'll always stress III/Hard is to be approached as a second loop, and dissuade anyone from attacking it head-on. It's over the line in spots even by that standard. Appropriately, the designers challenge you to clear Hard after Normal.

Spoiler

st1/Hard's snipers are in the same spots as Normal's, including the first one you encounter while you're invincible, obligingly demonstrating his upgraded attack on your Barrier. They're also just as incapable of hitting an advancing player. At first I was stumped that you'd even bother braking for them, it's both annoying and deeply sub-optimal. I just steamroll the buggers with the enormous dual Spreadgun I acquired in the approach, never breaking stride. Even the peashooter will suffice. st3 opening snipers require specialised techniques every time, sure. st1's don't. Splatter them and enjoy the crowd mixup.

Now I think I understand, though!

There's no double standard. When you viciously punish intelligent aggression, you strongly encourage thoughtless cowardice and therefore tedium.

You're being punished alright, for a lack of technique. If your reaction to III/Hard's cruelty is dismay that is totally understandable. But authoritatively grappling with it is terribly rewarding for those who like their sidescrollers chaotic yet technical. High-level III/Hard play excels at this balance. Transitional Normal->Hard memo hazards dusted, and strong techniques honed, it remains ferociously dangerous and aggressive where the other Nakazatos largely fade into routine. I can easily forgive a few trivially-overcome entry barriers in exchange for a concise, varied challenge fuelled by an inexhaustible RNG inferno.

If your argument is that CIII Hard is the hardest/best Contra game provided the player is already a veteran expert at all of the games, then sure maybe, but I'll never find out because it's the game that does the most to discourage me from getting to that point, and I highly doubt it has anything over C4/Rebirth Hard modes, and I'm only missing out on 3 pretty short stages in any case.

That is almost precisely my argument. Only modification being that experience with the other games is peripheral; they'll only teach so much. III/Hard is more in line with relentless killers like Ninja Spirit and Daimakaimura.

I'm talking about that dude in the second stage who only becomes vulnerable to attack when you face directly away from him.

Oh him. You want to use fast rotation (double-tap the shoulder button). Even worst-case scenario (peashooter only, no barrier, no bombs), it'll allow you to wangle some damage by triggering his attack then backpedalling in. By that point I've got my C+C so I just hammer a barrage onto him then quick-turn and he instantly explodes, lmao.

[Obscura]

lmao Jack is so mad. Most of the strategies he describes are just straight up ineffective, sub-optimal for survival, or don't even work (this coming from not one but two posters who have 1lc'd hard, vs someone who's never made it past stage 3), so it's obvious he just hasn't played the game (on hard) enough to know what he's talking about*. No idea why he keeps trying to argue about a game he clearly doesn't know much about. Just drop it, kid. You can't be an expert on everything.

*I suppose that's natural though. A big part of why Contra 3 is so good (besides the "keep moving or die" enemy placements) is the rng. Or, more specifically it's usage**. There are very few side scrolling actioniers I've played where random elements so consistently force improvisation and reaction at high speed, and where routes feel so variable and dynamic, even when you've been playing it for years. I suppose somebody who hasn't put much thought into that vital aspect of game design (as many bad and wrong people haven't) wouldn't appreciate it if they hadn't played the game enough to realize how frequently it'll throw you for a loop and induce panicky chaotic nightmares. Ninja Spirit is probably the only ground-bound blaster on the same level, and perhaps Daimakaimura a notch below.

**This is also why stage 1 is so much better than every other Contra stage 1. Making it through on hard requires a different reactive motion each time. When is that all important zako bullet that forces you to perilously jump or duck admist snipers and dogs gonna come? the random number generator, that's who. I suppose the same could be said of Contra 1 nes and Super Contra arcade, but those games are much slower (and easier in C1's case). Contra 3 brings the laser speed***.

I don't know if he's mad or not, but he's right. I had remembered the game quite fondly, but going back to it and comparing it to Contra or Super C makes it look pretty bad in comparison, and if you compare it to Gunforce (arcade) or a Metal Slug game prior to 3, it comes off even worse.

There's no excitement in stage 1 beyond the initial spectacle (which is, admittedly, pretty fucking spectacular). It's a pure memo test. Hold down shoot (EDIT: and keep a peashooter, since it's the best weapon for this sequence), walk forward, know where every sniper is, be sure to have your shots at the right angle in advance so you can kill them while still walking forward. If you don't know about the dogs, they kill you; if you do, they're a non-threat. OMG, SOMETIMES THE RNG MEANS YOU HAVE TO TURN AND SHOOT A RUNNER BEHIND YOU!! BRILLIANT!!

It's probably better than Contra HC, but that's more on Contra HC being bad than Contra 3 being good.

(I haven't played Contra 4, but it's made by the same company that brought us the Shantae series, so I'd be shocked if it's not totally awful.)

[Squire Grooktook]

The pea shooter is not the best weapon for surviving stage 1 tho. If you're only going to spend one drunken night playing through the first quarter of a game, at least don't tell people things which are not true

[Sumez]

Do you consider Gunforce better than Contra 3?

Maybe I'm just a big wuss and should appreciate how hard it is, but after playing it a few times and getting decimated by the first stage in away that felt like it was just trying to steal my quarters, rather than actually giving me a fun time, I gave it up.
I even own the PCB for whatever reason.

On C3 - I think BIL and Squire may be slightly overexaggerating the random nature and improvision of the random zakos. I can still device pretty much a set path throughout all of Stage 1 on Hard and only very rarely have to apply any variation on it at all, in order to make it through unscathed. Not saying it's EASY at all, it's an intricate dance of quick reactions and visual cues all over the place, making sure you grab the things you need while pushing forward through the mayhem, not letting the scrolling catch up to you enough to removing your chance to jump over the ground turret like a badass, etc.
What is true though, is that there is always the risk of having to apply a small amount of variation at one point throughout the stage. It really doesn't happen that much, but it's there all the time. A single random zako forcing you to turn around for a split second is not a threat, but the nature of the stage in its entirety (or, well, up until the tank) is just a lot of things that work really well together, never really allowing you to stop up anywhere to catch your breath, like pretty much every location on every stage in Contra 1 and/or Hard Corps does.

As for Shattered Soldier, I think this forum post says it all

[Squire Grooktook]

I can still device pretty much a set path throughout all of Stage 1 on Hard and only very rarely have to apply any variation on it at all, in order to make it through unscathed. Not saying it's EASY at all, it's an intricate dance of quick reactions and visual cues all over the place, making sure you grab the things you need while pushing forward through the mayhem, not letting the scrolling catch up to you enough to removing your chance to jump over the ground turret like a badass, etc.
What is true though, is that there is always the risk of having to apply a small amount of variation at one point throughout the stage. It really doesn't happen that much, but it's there all the time. A single random zako forcing you to turn around for a split second is not a threat, but the nature of the stage in its entirety (or, well, up until the tank) is just a lot of things that work really well together, never really allowing you to stop up anywhere to catch your breath, like pretty much every location on every stage in Contra 1 and/or Hard Corps does.

Yes, this is all true (except that last bit about contra 1/hardcorps, contra 1 really does let you take your time in spots, even if it does have an omnipresent, though slower reactional hazard).

I think stage 1 is the most perfectly formed opening stage in the series* as well as very close to my "ideal first stage", but it's certainly not worth a page of argument and there are certainly better things to talk about. The alien lair for instance is everything that stage 1 has been exaggerated into. Pure chaos that never relents, can't be routed, and creates terror each time. The opening rush being the only setpiece I can think of that's on par with Ninja Spirits apocalyptic stage 6 battlefield.

The randomness in stage 1 is ultimately more about watching. Zakos appear fast and move fast, and you're always watching them for the all important bullet that may force you to critically adjust your jump timing while dealing with other enemies. The drive to move forward is there, though, because stopping to fend off an errant zako (instead of using a well timed reactive jump to evade and strike at once) when a sniper or other dangerous enemy is on-screen but out of reach will create the fabled "clusterfuck of death". Veterans won't have to worry about this actually happening in a run, but it's the threat that keeps forward momentum as an optimal strategy, even when it requires deftly landing between a speeding bullet and a dog.

All unlike Contra 1/4 where it's perfectly acceptable to casually park and snipe a few turrets from a safe distance before moving on.

I said before that the stage still sneaks lives from me from time to time due to the randomness. And this is true. I am very consistent with it, and it's rare. But it does happen. And that's more than I can say for a plethora of other shooters. And for the few that do have the same level of twitchiness on the first stage, even fewer can boast that ceasing ones forward momentum is never mandatory. No matter what hand the random number god deals, well timed reactive jumps can keep you gracefully moving forward. And I fucking love doing that.


*Hardcorps's opening is the only one that rivals it for speed, and that one shits the bed as previously mentioned. 1, SC, 4, SS all lack the pace and speed. 4 is the only one that's nearly as challenging post-memorization.

[Ghegs]

Do you consider Gunforce better than Contra 3?

Maybe I'm just a big wuss and should appreciate how hard it is, but after playing it a few times and getting decimated by the first stage in away that felt like it was just trying to steal my quarters, rather than actually giving me a fun time, I gave it up.
I even own the PCB for whatever reason.

I 1CCed Gunforce on PCB a few years ago and it's kind of flawed overall, but can be fun. You're probably getting killed by the wonky hitbox without even realizing it. I made these gifs from fights against the first boss:

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah that seems like the kind of quality and polish that a fan of Super Contra would enjoy~

I actually like Super Contra even though parts of it make me nauseous.