4th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[Shatterhand]

Soldier Blade and Zanac Neo suffered from that. I remember both games being praised at some point as the best thing since bread came sliced, nowadays the can't even reach the top 25

[Frogacuda]

Heh, first people anticipated Trizeal would suck, then after its release they suddenly began to praize it, and now it's back to disliking it ;-D

Because even mediocre shooters are fun to play, until you realize there's better shmupping out there.

[captain ahar]

Heh, first people anticipated Trizeal would suck, then after its release they suddenly began to praize it, and now it's back to disliking it ;-D

i actually really liked trizeal, but i (like any sane person) saw garegga as the priority. this was also in the dreaded period last year (and before that too) where you couldn't find a copy for less than 90 to 100 bucks...

[jp]

Anyway, Battle Garegga's demand has dropped recently, which means it's yielding $60-70 prices again (hell, I've seen it on Ebay for that much, with spine).

I've noticed.


Actually, right now would be prime time to finish off any Saturn collecting I have left, as prices for Saturn games across the board have dropped.

[Ceph]

@captain ahar
Was probably a smart move to trade it for Garegga (besides Garegga being much better I mean); doesn't look like Trizeal will become more valuable, especially now that a PS2 version will be released.

EDIT: There's a seller on ebay offering the PS2 version. I had no idea it was out already ?! Maybe preorder.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8790868685

[Turrican]

By social differences, I meant the fact that group thought tends to encompass individual thought (AKA indirect peer pressure). When certain individuals who formed the core of one community leave or no longer participates and is replaced by people who have other interests in mind, those new interests replace many of the older ones. And that's my belief in how games like Soldier Blade that were once so treasured by this forum have fallen into simply "good" status: because the core individuals in the trend supporting the game disappeared or no longer cared.

Well said, although I expected any sort of hint about why former members liked SBlade, or why now Souky and RSG are declining in their appeal.

Soldier Blade and Zanac Neo suffered from that. I remember both games being praised at some point as the best thing since bread came sliced, nowadays the can't even reach the top 25

With something like 22 votes, Zanac Neo might "risk" to enter it, at the bottom but nonetheless. Keep your fingers crossed!

[dai jou bu]

Heh, first people anticipated Trizeal would suck, then after its release they suddenly began to praize it, and now it's back to disliking it ;-D

I actually enjoyed Trizeal when it didn't slow down a lot with two players reasonably powered up and firing simultaneously or during those long post-stage intermissions because the Dreamcast spent an unreasonable amount of time loading the next one. If these problems were fixed, I actually would've put it on my list.

[xaer0knight]

Soldier Blade and Zanac Neo suffered from that. I remember both games being praised at some point as the best thing since bread came sliced, nowadays the can't even reach the top 25

Id agreed with that.. games like Super Star Solider and SHATTERHAND lol should always be on a list of the top shmups. If DDP can survive why cant the other older "old School" SHMUPS. I really see no PC Shmups listed like the ABA Games (rRootage and Torus Trooper), Siter Skain (Kamui and RefleX), or Shanghai Alice (makers of Imperishable Night and embodiment of scarlet devil)... Playing SHMUPS on PC are my favorite. I was surprised i didnt see Nanospray for NDS or Choas Field for GCN. Choas Field is hard but the music and visuals made up for it like Ikaruga did. Nanospray had this intresting form and using a touch screen.

I have this Sharp X6800k game called Cho Ren Sha (http://www2.tky.3web.ne.jp/~yosshin/my_works/index.html) to me that will be one of my picks on my list.

My Two Cents-
Jason


http://www.blutengel.ws

[louisg]

Soldier Blade and Zanac Neo suffered from that. I remember both games being praised at some point as the best thing since bread came sliced, nowadays the can't even reach the top 25

I would've voted for Soldier Blade if I could spend more time with it (I don't own it).. it seems really good! Oldschool shmups in general don't seem to have as much as a presence here as they used to, dunno if I'd take that as a sign of them not holding up. I think now people tend to expect DDPish games, but that's kind of a stylistic choice. Maybe the shmups audience has gotten younger?

[Randorama]

Maybe the shmups audience has gotten younger?

Maybe they can dodge the bullets and thus stop worshipping unchallenging games because they don't hurt their ego...

[louisg]

Maybe the shmups audience has gotten younger?

Maybe they can dodge the bullets and thus stop worshipping unchallenging games because they don't hurt their ego...

Soldier Blade is pretty challenging past level 2 (with the first two levels being a piece of cake).. that st3 boss throws all sorts of crap at you. I don't think ego is the issue here, and I'm not certain what makes you think it is.

[xaer0knight]

Maybe the shmups audience has gotten younger?

Maybe they can dodge the bullets and thus stop worshipping unchallenging games because they don't hurt their ego...

Soldier Blade is pretty challenging past level 2 (with the first two levels being a piece of cake).. that st3 boss throws all sorts of crap at you. I don't think ego is the issue here, and I'm not certain what makes you think it is.

Ya.. Soldier Blade is hard (Super Star Soldier is my fave in the series). But i love my games HARD, i like my challenges. Its all taste in certain games and in certain styles. i like my horizontal and others like vert. others like cute games like Magical Chase while others like fish of Darius LOL

[Ko.oS]

long time no play Soldier, but the penultimate boss is Star Parodia is a REAL motherfucker . . .

[DC906270]

the pce vert shmups by the likes of hudson soft annoy me because they are a piece of p))s up to like level 9 then they go ultra hard and you die and its taken you like an hour to play to that stage and you can't be arsed going back to level 1 to try again. super star soldier even has the silly feature that when you die a few times a row in a stage, you will go back to the beginning of the stage, which will then be a piece of p))s again, right up to the end boss where you will die AGAIN and have to repeat the stage AGAIN. this kills all replay value and means i kind of despise all pce vert shmups now.
BTW, i dont mind shmups that are hard, as long as they do not have such daft (un)balance issues. tatsujin on pce i kind of like.

[Blade]

So how long before we get the results of this year's voting?

[Randorama]

Soldier Blade is pretty challenging past level 2 (with the first two levels being a piece of cake).. that st3 boss throws all sorts of crap at you. I don't think ego is the issue here, and I'm not certain what makes you think it is.

I would never compare it to, say, Gunbird 2 or other similar titles. A good chunk of the "old skool worshipping" comes from people who don't like modern games and its higher number of bullets, unsurprinsingly enough.
I still have to find a sound explanation behind the "omg old skool the golden past!" or "omg they didn't spam the screen with bullets!" or "omg they were good because i was a child!" rationales. Honestly, if you find Star Soldier difficult, you're not particularly skilled, as well (but that was something we knew already...).

Also, console style (few bullets and low challenge) has disappeared, so young generations basically play arcade ports of "bullet-rich" titles. An interesting comparison could be done on the love for hard and old titles, like Flying Shark, it would nice to see if they can get "love" with exposure. Not project-X or any poorly programmed titles, though.

In short, even with exposure with old console titles, their low challenge can consistently turn off people used to challenges.

[DC906270]

Honestly, if you find Star Soldier difficult, you're not particularly skilled, as well (but that was something we knew already...).

ooo, cut down with a swathe by the great poet and wit Randorama, i believe?

anyhoos, "super" star soldier is not that difficult, just incredibly annoying with its restart issues

[Randorama]

I'm sorry but every once in a while i have the duty of being an asshole...


Question: did i vote? I can't recall and i happen not to find my votes, can anyone double-check? (I can't find my votes, in case i've cast them: can anyone confirm this or i've just overlooked them?)

[dai jou bu]

In short, even with exposure with old console titles, their low challenge can consistently turn off people used to challenges.

Rando's pretty spot on. Other than a few exceptions (Einhander and the Thunderforce series are the only two that come off the top of my head), the majority of shmups that survive the test of time are ones that were originally released on the arcade.

[jp]

I don't think a shmup has to be challenging to be good...


Otherwise, we'd be worshipping Image Fight 2 and Rayxanber II.


And personally, aside from Mars Matrix and possibly Batsugun's later levels, I haven't found any manic I've played particularly "challenging". I move slowly through a maze of bullets... yippee...

Personally, I think G.Rev games are more challenging than any manic.

[dai jou bu]

Personally, I think G.Rev games are more challenging than any manic.

Well, they also had an arcade release.

[louisg]

Well, difficult and challenging are two different things. Second, there is a problem with your statement, Rando: difficulty of a game is relative. Here's a good question: What is a good shmup to introduce people to shooters? Certainly it's not a crushingly hard (and visually busy) game like Mars Matrix, no matter how excellent it is. So, when discussing how good a shooter is, maybe weapon balance, involvement of player, interesting level designs, originality, and so on might be a better criteria than "this game is too easy for me".

Yeah, arcade games *generally* hold up better than home shooters (and most console & pc games!), but that doesn't mean there's not a selection of rather good console shmups also. I don't think we ever had people praising, you know, Imperium or something.

And don't wonder why people who haven't spent time with the genre write shooters off as being credit-feeders-- nobody's been able to introduce them properly to it =)

[Randorama]

I'm basically saying

"challenging OR balanced--> fun"

Which by EFSQL (Ex Falso sequitur quodlibet, "From Falsehood follows anything") means that a game can be fun without being challenging, for istance by being balanced. That's my "axiom" to this issue.

Well, difficult and challenging are two different things.

challenging and unfair are, yes, challenging and difficult are the same scalar structure. I'd admit that i'd use difficult for something high in such a scale, but i wouldn't use challenging for something low in the scale as well.

The ordering i propose is:

too easy=boring<easy<intermediate<challenging<very challenging<difficult<too difficult=boring

Balanced, again, is something different, which can indipendently hold true of the difficulty level.

Second, there is a problem with your statement, Rando: difficulty of a game is relative.

There's no need to randomly use the word "relative", we're not at a cocktail party. Gunbird 2, either that you're a pro or a noob, is more difficultthan Star Soldier. More bullets (survival-wise difficulty), more complex score system (score-wise). Are they balanced? Yes, both, but that's a comment based on knowing the engines.

Here's a good question: What is a good shmup to introduce people to shooters? Certainly it's not a crushingly hard (and visually busy) game like Mars Matrix, no matter how excellent it is.

Nice question. It is pertinent to a discourse about difficulty? Not too much. , but...

So, when discussing how good a shooter is, maybe weapon balance, involvement of player, interesting level designs, originality, and so on might be a better criteria than "this game is too easy for me".

It could as well as be that a game is too easy because, regardless of the engine's balance, it doesn't force the player to think. "Easy" and "challenging" don't really overlap, except maybe in personal idiolects, i think. However, challenging isn't a necessary condition for fun, if my statement is correct. So, a game could be fun for other reasons, including balance.
However, balance is something that can be tested by having a true engine. Sprites moving on screen without being a menace for a player's ship, uhm! No, i wouldn't call it balanced (a good chunk of old console titles, in a nutshell). Planes shooting out of the screen? Nay, not balanced (a good chunk of arcade titles, in a nutshell). Player with insanely powerful/ exceedingly weak weapons? Nope. If you want two good examples of Balance, you just need Flying Shark and Battle Garegga, honestly, or Musha as well.

Yeah, arcade games *generally* hold up better than home shooters (and most console & pc games!), but that doesn't mean there's not a selection of rather good console shmups also. I don't think we ever had people praising, you know, Imperium or something.

A rather strict selection, in my opinion, which is the consequence of some of them being balanced, albeit easy, or some of them being...arcade-like.
Again, i constantly see people bitching about "playing for fun and not for score", and protesting about shmups not being the same old recycled things of 20 years ago (they wouldn't have simply survived on the market, in such a case...), and then confess that they play mainstream titles most of the time, possibly of the unchallenging type. So the usual mantra starts "eh but the shmups i played as a kid were better, because i was indeed a kid and blah blah blah...".

In the meanwhile, a good chunk of the "young generations" of shmuppers have started playing modern titles, which tend to be at least challenging, and almost always balanced ( it's not difficult to make a balanced title, after 27 of "collective" experience in the genre). It is difficult, i think, for a new player to enjoy a title which can be seen as almost a prototype, by today's standards (and most old games fall in this category, frankly).
Personally i appreciate balanced games, albeit easy, others may not and have a "challenging-->fun" axiom in mind. Challenge comes first, though, in my book.

And don't wonder why people who haven't spent time with the genre write shooters off as being credit-feeders-- nobody's been able to introduce them properly to it =)

There's a limit to blaming other people - some personal effort, to understand things, is always necessary. Which is quite paradoxical when speaking of the last generation, in which score-systems are by and at large an optional element, and the discriminating parameter for challenge.

[louisg]

There's no need to randomly use the word "relative", we're not at a cocktail party. Gunbird 2, either that you're a pro or a noob, is more difficultthan Star Soldier. More bullets (survival-wise difficulty), more complex score system (score-wise). Are they balanced? Yes, both, but that's a comment based on knowing the engines.

Hmm I never thought of relative as a cocktail party word.. anyway, I think the difficulty of a game IS relative: While Gunbird 2 is harder than Star Soldier, to a new player, Star Soldier might be hard while to me it's probably way too easy. Also, Gunbird 2 might be seen as impossible by less skilled/newer players, while someone more advanced would see methods for beating it. I remember loaning Thunderforce III to someone who thought it was extremely tough-- though he had no problem with SNES Gradius 3 which *I* consider to be a lot harder than most of the Thunderforces.

powerful/ exceedingly weak weapons? Nope. If you want two good examples of Balance, you just need Flying Shark and Battle Garegga, honestly, or Musha as well.

Strange, I always thought of Musha as having way overpowered options and not involving the player enough (after the options are powered up).

In the meanwhile, a good chunk of the "young generations" of shmuppers have started playing modern titles

Dude, that's what I just said a few posts back.. but honestly, a lot of criticism of old games I've seen is just "oh I don't play games made before X" or that they're ugly or too low tech or something. This to me seems to be largely a preference of style rather than anything too objective, and that's why I was suggesting earlier that perhaps we've lost some old-timers somewhere along the way =)

[Turrican]

Rando's pretty spot on. Other than a few exceptions (Einhander and the Thunderforce series are the only two that come off the top of my head), the majority of shmups that survive the test of time are ones that were originally released on the arcade.

You mean, they stand the test of time to a community which happens to like modern shooters...

[Ko.oS]

Gunbird2 is only difficult if you dont watch replays.

[Randorama]

Hmm I never thought of relative as a cocktail party word..

Because you don't attend enough parties, i think

But seriously, aside personal weaknesses to styles, a sort of "universal" scale of diffifculty" can be made, and the lowest members (old console titles, but also stuff like some modern titles if you skip scoring aspects), are easily dismissable as "unfun" if challenge is a big priority. I bet that Psyvariar won't pop up in the final chart, for instance.

Strange, I always thought of Musha as having way overpowered options and not involving the player enough (after the options are powered up).

I admit i wanted to be politically correct: i can't think of a balanced but easy console title of yesterday, right now.

Dude, that's what I just said a few posts back.. but honestly, a lot of criticism of old games I've seen is just "oh I don't play games made before X" or that they're ugly or too low tech or something. This to me seems to be largely a preference of style rather than anything too objective, and that's why I was suggesting earlier that perhaps we've lost some old-timers somewhere along the way =)

Eh, three cheers for written form indeed. I agree that 'young shmuppers' may skip old and easy titles. Basically, we can assume that a 'young shmupper' can require for a game to be challenging, then to be balanced, and then of being fun. I am thinking in terms of presuppositions calculus right now, perhaps you can guess what i mean (but i'll save any formal details or we'll sky-rocket the geekiness of the discussion beyond redemption ).

I would be surprised to see any Toaplan titles in the final chart, or a Gradius other than Gaiden or V. Other old console titles, dunno...I think Flying shark,Gradius II, Darius, R-Type and Tatsujin should be promoted to some time-less status, to avoid the trendyness of annual charts.
Maybe other titles, in case.

[Eps]

Nanospray had this intresting form and using a touch screen.

I own Nanostray, and play it a lot. However, while competent, it's certainly not "Top 25 Ever" material. There are a few issues with the game that one would never find in a really good shoot-'em-up. One such issue is the 'boss problem:' if you kill a boss when you're in a certain range of positions near-ish the centre of the screen, the resulting cutscene and automatic boss recentering sometimes results in a very unfair, completely unavoidable death.

Also, though I'm a huge fan of my DS' touchscreen, for weapon selection it just doesn't work, requiring you to take your hands off the controls and shift focus, which often results in death. Shin'en would have been better off having the player cycle through weapons using the L and R buttons -- specially as there are face buttons that are unused and that could have been used for 'attract', and so on!

Don't get me wrong, though -- I like Nanostray a lot, specially the Challenge mode (getting huge Valor bonuses by hardly ever firing the weapon, avoid-'em-up style is surprisingly compelling). But it's not in the very best 25 ever made.

(Edit: fixed typo.)

[dai jou bu]

You mean, they stand the test of time to a community which happens to like modern shooters...

No, I meant:

... the majority of shmups that survive the test of time are ones that were originally released on the arcade.

Seriously, I really can't bring out of any console shmup from the 8 to 16-bit era that Randorama's trying to describe without putting a little bit of thought to it.

Then again, I never had an NEC gaming console or handheld of my own. So that means that not having a PC-Engine is okay? I keep hearing that it has an extensive shmup library.

So, after thinking about it for a little bit, only one shmup come to mind: Axelay. Well, not really; I remember dying a lot on Hard Difficulty, and only by starting on Easy and racking up lives and looping through Normal and then to Hard could I finish it.

EDIT: Thunder Blade for the Sega Master System was an arcade port. A stripped down one, but a port nonetheless.

[Ko.oS]

I would be surprised to see any Toaplan titles in the final chart

well, FTR, Bats with Guns has made the list the last two years, and I imagine it will make it there this time around as well -- but that's because the SS rev feat. the special version, and in that one your ship has a pretty damn tiny hitbox -- if you know what I mean.