New Cave Matsuri

[KAI]

Should I change the thread title?

[Xyga]

Should I change the thread title?

Change it to 'lol internet'

[iconoclast]

I vote 'No Farm for Old Men'

[Squire Grooktook]

I missed this before.

What's even more funny than this me is that Squire, who's usually extremely open-minded and positive towards others, decided to save your ass (which was the opposite of this) by calling it somehow "classical" view which as I see it is the basic egoistic old-white-guy view that doesn't respect or understand other cultures or different people, and therefore let's his own view on them inflate to completely untruthful levels. And I don't even know if philosophy is related to this!
I can't help but feel that this is about squire siding 'against' me based on some of the completely unrelated steam discussions we had. But hey, thank him! And enjoy your intellectual discussion.

If you go back and read my posts, I said I was staying neutral on the subject of Idols, but that I understood that Skykid was arguing for something (rather then just saying "you're wrong", as had been asserted).

Keep in mind that I like both you and Skykid. I didn't want to go against you, but at the same time I wanted to give Skykid his due. There is no revenge element, I've intentionally steered away from personally arguing with you on this topic.

[dan76]

I'll quote something that I once saved
"
Anything deliberately made by a human is art. Even if it was made for for commercial purposes it's still an expression of the creator's mind.
The whole problem of the "is X art?" debate is the fact that people for some reason conflate "art" with "good art".

An artwork doesn't need to be masterful, or technically proficient, or thoughtful, or even good to be art (attendance at your average art show will make this fact perfectly clear). Does the a shitty theme song to a kids show stop being music because it's shitty? No, it's just bad music.

Are idol concerts art? Yes. Anyone can see that, unless they employ some sort of elitist bullshit definition of art to try and inflate the importance of the word. Idols are a coming together of various aesthetic forms to create a cultural object, usually with no practical purpose. They could only ever reasonably considered artwork.

More important question: Are idols GOOD art? Maybe that's worth debating, but seeing their popularity and impact in Japan, I'd say yes

If you take this view the the word "art" is meaningles, it holds no value. There's no point to any discussion because there's no framework, no reference point. So what if it's art - by this definition it doesn't matter. Your view of "good art" is, I think what most people are talking about when they discuss art.

Skykid keep going, this is good shit.

[Cagar]

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[Frenetic]

Cagar and Skykid (and other parties), would you want to come on an episode STGWeekly to do a live debate/panel discussion on this subject? It could be fruitful to be able to do this in real time.

Here is a series of articles that might help to frame the discussion.

http://henryjenkins.org/2012/04/otaku_c ... ted_w.html
http://henryjenkins.org/2012/04/otaku_c ... d_w_1.html
http://henryjenkins.org/2012/04/otaku_c ... d_w_2.html

http://henryjenkins.org/2015/01/in-defe ... t-one.html
http://henryjenkins.org/2015/01/in-defe ... t-two.html
http://henryjenkins.org/2015/01/in-defe ... three.html
http://henryjenkins.org/2015/02/in-defe ... -four.html
http://henryjenkins.org/2015/02/in-defe ... -five.html

[Skykid]

Skykid keep going, this is good shit.

Believe it or not, there may be a limit to how many times one can try to hammer a square peg into a round hole. No matter how unbelievably obvious it is that something is barrel scraping commercial shit, for some it seems to serve a higher purpose. A bit like Justin Bieber fans.

I was enjoying chatting about quantifiable scales of quality with Grooktook though and I'm looking forward to seeing what he comes back with after he's had his dwelling period.

Cagar and Skykid (and other parties), would you want to come on an episode STGWeekly to do a live debate/panel discussion on this subject? It could be fruitful to be able to do this in real time.

You must be mad!

[BryanM]

Did u guyz kno that idols poop?

They're also made of meat.

That doesn't mean you should eat idols or poop though.

Your mileage may vary.

[Giest118]

Extermination is still clearly and obviously the only answer that makes sense.

Terminate them.

Terminate them all so hard. And so angrily.

It's the only way to save us from the processed corporatism.

Without the termination, skynet will happen and annihilate the human race.

[Cagar]

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[NeoStrayCat]

Should I change the thread title?

Yes, plz, lol. XD

[RecklessRave]

I'd still like to hear about the female fans of the female groups. How exactly are the business masterminds tricking them into buying music, merch, concert tickets, etc? Have they all become lesbians because Japanese men are too focused on the cute idols?

As a former idol fan and straight female, I can say that for me it was all about these 3 things:

1. Fun, easy-to-learn songs
2. Fun, approachable dances
3. Really cute costumes and fashions

Ultimately, I got out of the idol fandom when a new idol I really liked had pictures leaked of her sharing an umbrella with a boy (the idol was in junior high). "Fans" then posted pictures on 2ch, etc, showing CDs and merchandise of her group broken and destroyed, with derogatory comments about the girl. That really bothered me, and still does to this day. For a Japanese female fan, maybe that seems more normal and less shocking, so they find it easier to stay into idols, I don't know. I do know that if there were an idol group that didn't have to maintain that "image of chastity" that is expected, I would probably be into them. The one idol concert I got to go to at an anime convention (Berryz Koubou was the group) was one of the most fun events I have attended in my life. I used to love analyzing every new single and album, the costumes involved, the dances, and of course singing along to the songs even when they were silly.

[Strider77]

Never, ever.... share your umbrella.

[Squire Grooktook]

I was enjoying chatting about quantifiable scales of quality with Grooktook though and I'm looking forward to seeing what he comes back with after he's had his dwelling period.

Might be a while though, this is a tough one and I tend to take my time with these things.

That live debate though, I can only imagine it.

[mamboFoxtrot]

Should I change the thread title?

"Idol Banter" would work.


Not really wanting to jump in on this much, but I kinda find "sexuality is NOT a relevant part of idols" to be a bit hard to swallow given all the bikini photoshoots and such they do. Not saying everyone who has any level of interest in idols is a creeper, but I doubt these girls are being selected purely on their song and dance talents.

[Skykid]

What if I told you that you just absoultely stink at trying to rationalize your misinformed, egoistic views about things that you don't like? It's not about people not understanding, it's about you being shitty at explaining it, whenever you even attempt that.

But that's not true is it. I've explained my position and reasoning very clearly numerous times and nobody else seems to have a problem figuring it out except you. If you disagree with that position that's fine. If you can't understand the position because you can't and don't read, that's nobody's problem except your own.

Numerous people have already called you out for poor reading comprehension and amazing hypocritical insults, no need to add a string of frustration based ad hominem and racial attacks to the pile.

You may well be a skinny nerd in a dark room surrounded by coke cans, but you know nothing about me whatsoever, so unless you're contributing to the discussion please keep it to yourself.

I also don't know why some people here think 33 is old? If that's old then you guys are screwed: you'll be here soon enough. I'll keep a zimmerframe on hand for you!

Spoiler

[BryanM]

"Idol Banter" would work.

"That's a pretty hand you've got there. I'd like to take it home with me."

I also don't know why some people here think 33 is old?

It is old.

I can observe the cognitive decline in my old man brain. It's performance is way lower than it used to be. Throw me in the trash heap and buy a new one.

[Skykid]

I can observe the cognitive decline in my old man brain. It's performance is way lower than it used to be. Throw me in the trash heap and buy a new one.

Indeed, just last week I noticed the first onset of rickets on my way to the the local bingo. Inadvertently it appeared I had been walking in circles for some time.

[Cagar]

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[Skykid]

you made your position more than clear though so I'll give you that.

Right, that makes a lot of sense. Didn't you just type this:

"you just absoultely stink at trying to rationalize your misinformed, egoistic views about things that you don't like? It's not about people not understanding, it's about you being shitty at explaining it, whenever you even attempt that."

Consistency. That can be your word for today.

Also It's cool that you have some like-minded fist bumping daddies on the forum coming to back you up

You sound very childish when you type things like this. I have no 'fist-bumping buddies' on shmups farm, there are just some people who read the exchanges and thought your argument was poor in content and execution and told you so. Don't cry about it for Christ's sake, it's only a forum thread.

we could switch forums and the situation regarding that and ""reading comprehension"" would be the opposite.

No it wouldn't. Reading comprehension, clarity of argument, and ability to digest text doesn't change if you go to 'J-idol Universe' to have a conversation.

Truth be told, I'm not. It was a heavily exaggerated version of how I believe that you think I am

I don't think about you at all. When I change the browser page you vanish.

I'm actually starting to think that I got my point across in the last page and maybe you understood it to some degree seeing how you've started skipping my posts even when they include new, well thought out arguments.

I didn't see any new point, just some old ones I didn't agree with (and please, I've stated why, so don't ask again). I commented on your post with the excerpt because I thought it was worth commenting on, but I didn't see any "new, well thought out arguments" that needed to be addressed, especially when you're throwing out comments like this:

"Genital mutilation has been done there [Africa] for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and if it's purpose is to attempt to control female sexuality, I'd say that it's "good" too. It's popular, it does exactly what intended. In the same way as idols, it's good."

- Cagar: Thu May 05, 2016 3:09 pm

^ Honestly, this sentence is on the precipice of winning a victory for global idiocy, and perfect grounds to stop anybody debating anything marginally intelligent with you for the rest of your life.

much like my speculation about you was. (It was based on some posts I've seen here)

Do tell. I'd be interested to know which posts made you so imaginative.

[Cagar]

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[HenAi]

Doesn't the whole argument at this point boil down to something akin to the question of whether fast food (the BK kind) is real food and how bad it is for how large of a fraction of those who eat it?
Because if it does, you might as well stop arguing, you're never going to agree. Arguing about taste hardly ever goes anywhere. Same goes for "fast food is bad, just look at what happens if you constantly eat it (fatness, addiction, and so on and so forth)" vs "fast food isn't inherently bad, it depends on how much and how often - if you eat it too much, that's entirely your own fault and not the responsibility of the fast food producer".

[Skykid]

I've talked with several people about this thread elsewhere (not only in #kp) and frankly the vast majority of people seem to think this way too. So hey, apparently these things you listed DO change! Not when you go to 'J-idol Universe', but when you ask about it from someone other than Skykid or his forum buddies. (Sadly many these people are hesitant to post here though)

Lol

This is getting real sad

[Cagar]

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[BryanM]

I'm just angry we can't have ranty make out sessions 20% as long as this one when it's about fucking Ghostbusters.

Ghostbusters is at least 3,000% as important as J-idols.

[iconoclast]

Not really wanting to jump in on this much, but I kinda find "sexuality is NOT a relevant part of idols" to be a bit hard to swallow given all the bikini photoshoots and such they do. Not saying everyone who has any level of interest in idols is a creeper, but I doubt these girls are being selected purely on their song and dance talents.

That's true, but it depends on the group. Some push sex appeal harder than others, and it's usually the ones that are struggling for relevancy. I still think it's safe to say that idol popularity is directly related to how fun the music and dances are, though. Anything else is of minor importance imo.

[dan76]

... especially when you're throwing out comments like this:

"Genital mutilation has been done there [Africa] for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and if it's purpose is to attempt to control female sexuality, I'd say that it's "good" too. It's popular, it does exactly what intended. In the same way as idols, it's good."

- Cagar: Thu May 05, 2016 3:09 pm

^ Honestly, this sentence is on the precipice of winning a victory for global idiocy, and perfect grounds to stop anybody debating anything marginally intelligent with you for the rest of your life.

Holy fuck. Game set and match Skykid. Cagar is RegalSin.

[Eaglet]

Acting more like a 12 year old boy tbh.

[Cagar]

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