Analogue Interactive's Analog NT - $500 NES/Famicom Console

[BazookaBen]

I suppose, but at the expense of lowering S/N ratio? Seems like he needed someone to review his review before publishing.

Ugh, yeah, that's kinda true. Honestly though, if you read the RGB retrogaming thread at NeoGAF, the S/N ratio is already pretty damn low.

[CkRtech]

He is quite a good video game journalist that is venturing into a technical area. The technical review would be better left to a more traditional tech reviewer, but it is the audience that is the focus rather than the product. It is definitely a bridging of two things. Kinda like BazookaBen said.

Maybe Analogue saw that most people interested in RGB have been buying SCART cables instead of wiring directly, so they increased the voltage on the RGB outputs? That's my only guess.

Their connection is "propriety" though (that VGA multiout). They provide the SCART cables right? It should be pretty straightforward...I guess their custom board, etc, may have some unwanted artifacts (or extra components that they didn't really need).

[darcagn]

Yeah, the whole thing about the resistors immediately threw up a red flag for me. Either Jeremy Parish's TV needs calibration (and if so, adding resistors to the cable is not the proper way to take care of that issue) or Analogue Interactive is shipping out systems/cables wired incorrectly.

[darcagn]

I also noticed something completely false on Analogue Interactive's site:

Inside you'll find shielded components pulling the audio directly from the original source. Not only does this mean an authentic representation of sound but crystal clear audio that is free from noise and interference. With the HDMI Adapter (sold separately), your Analogue Nt outputs the highest quality digital audio: 48KHz 16 bit stereo. 8 bit music has never sounded better.

...except if you get the HDMI adapter for digital audio, then you're getting "emulated audio" and not "authentic representation" from the "original source" since kevtris's kit generates its own audio, doesn't it? I'm sure it sounds good because it's kevtris, but still...

[Sixfortyfive]

...except if you get the HDMI adapter for digital audio, then you're getting "emulated audio" and not "authentic representation" from the "original source" since kevtris's kit generates its own audio, doesn't it? I'm sure it sounds good because it's kevtris, but still...

Can't the same logic be applied to the color generation process on the NESRGB, though? The color palettes are made to be as accurate to the source as possible, but it's the NESRGB and not the NES itself that's doing the work there.

Granted, this doesn't make your post untrue or anything.

[FBX]

...except if you get the HDMI adapter for digital audio, then you're getting "emulated audio" and not "authentic representation" from the "original source" since kevtris's kit generates its own audio, doesn't it? I'm sure it sounds good because it's kevtris, but still...

Can't the same logic be applied to the color generation process on the NESRGB, though? The color palettes are made to be as accurate to the source as possible, but it's the NESRGB and not the NES itself that's doing the work there.

I believe the NESRGB palettes come from emulators, though one of them mimics the playchoice-10 unless I'm mistaken. I know the "Natural" one is based on Nestopia's YUV impression, and the last one I think was an opinion-based improvement. I recently finished my own palette file, where I base it off the NTSC original deck's composite output. It's similar to the the Nestopia YUV palette, except it generates the blue/green shades and darker colors much more accurately. I used a test ROM that fills the entire screen with each color, making it a lot easier to measure and get the right hue values nailed down. Before that, I had been trying to eyeball the colors from games, but never was quite happy with my results. That test ROM made all the difference in the world though.

Here's my finalized palette:



I'm still waiting on my friend to finish his scope readings. He's been very busy with a kickstarter project of his own, so I'm not going to pressure him any time soon to get it done.

[RGB32E]

I also noticed something completely false on Analogue Interactive's site:

Inside you'll find shielded components pulling the audio directly from the original source. Not only does this mean an authentic representation of sound but crystal clear audio that is free from noise and interference. With the HDMI Adapter (sold separately), your Analogue Nt outputs the highest quality digital audio: 48KHz 16 bit stereo. 8 bit music has never sounded better.

...except if you get the HDMI adapter for digital audio, then you're getting "emulated audio" and not "authentic representation" from the "original source" since kevtris's kit generates its own audio, doesn't it? I'm sure it sounds good because it's kevtris, but still...

Yes, the HDNES generates it's own audio, and isn't an A/D mix from the CPU and cart slot.

I'd imagine the analog audio output on the two RCA connectors is active regardless of the NESRGB or HDNES used in the system. The most questionable thing from the quote is "crystal clear audio that is free from noise and interference" after seeing the review. However, the noted buzzing audio could have been accentuated by his setup.

[RGB32E]

Looks like the Analogue Nt it's getting a mini version! Exciting!

http://www.analogue.co/pages/nt-mini

FPGA hardware

The Nt mini has the same unparalleled compatibility as the original Nt. The core functionality of the original NES is engineered directly into an Altera Cyclone V, a sophisticated FPGA. When it comes to knowledge of the NES: our lead Electrical Engineer, Kevin Horton, is second to none.

He spent over 5,000 hours re-engineering the NES via FPGA for absolute accuracy. Unlike the knock off and emulation systems that riddle the market today, you’ll be experiencing the NES free of any compromises.

[Guspaz]

A while back, Jason mentioned that Kevin was working on a new board rev of the HDN that would feature the ability to have add-on modules, and that one of the planned modules was an analog output module for RGB video. Before looking at the Analogue page itself, I would have said that this is probably the realization of that plan.

Except for one thing: the Analogue NT Mini is actually very different from the Analogue NT. The Mini does not use original CPU/PPUs, the whole thing is implemented on an FPGA like the AVS is. They're using a Cyclone V FPGA (I believe the HDN uses the Cyclone III), and they explicitly state that Kevin did the implementation of it ("He spent over 5,000 hours re-engineering the NES via FPGA for absolute accuracy.")

My bet is that this is somewhat of an extraction of the Zimba 3000: he's taken the finished NES portion of the Z3K and spun it off standalone to serve this purpose.

All this comes back to the speculation about HDMI/RGB: it's possible that this isn't actually a new revision of the HDN, but that the HDMI/RGB functionality may be built-in directly to the NES-on-a-FPGA implementation. This would probably be cheaper than having the HDN onboard as a post-processing step, since that would involve having two large FPGAs.

Further fueling this speculation, the Mini doesn't just list HDMI and RGB, it also says it has component, s-video, and composite. Kevin has said before that the Z3K NES implementation included the analog video to the extent that he could produce composite video output that looked identical to a real NES on a scope. This also leads me to believe that the video support is built-in to the Cyclone V and not done via a secondary HDN FPGA.

[RGB32E]

Gameplay demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfzQq5oR1Uk

Features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-rSnnqfcZg

Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scS_1GgcGGE

[Guspaz]

They're clearly still using the HDN interface, so that may have been merged into the thing.

I mean, the HDN is already implementing a big chunk of the NES, so he may have just thrown a larger FPGA at it and implemented the rest of the NES on there too.

[bobrocks95]

Is it still going to cost $500?

[RGB32E]

Is it still going to cost $500?

http://www.analogue.co/products/analogue-nt-mini

[Guspaz]

It's $449, so it's both $50 cheaper than the original NT, but it also comes with a lot more stuff, both physical and features. They are including a retro receiver and 8bitdo NES30 controller (I've got the SNES30, these are well built controllers), which is itself a $50 value. And then this thing also has more features than the original NT, such as supporting every conceivable output, both digital and analog simultaneously.

Yes, it's expensive, but consider it the premium counterpart to the AVS. You've got good options for FPGA NES implementations both at the lower end and at the higher end.

Another thing of note here, because it's using an FPGA, this needn't be a limited-run thing like the original NT. Analogue can make as many of these as demand warrants.

[ZellSF]

Wonder if they'll find some way to add 5x vertical scale.

[RGB32E]

Wonder if they'll find some way to add 5x vertical scale.

I'm thinking the same thing! I know he (Kevtris) is aware that people want that feature, my only concern is that he might not add it just to have parity with the Hi-Def NES, which would be REALLY disappointing.

[Guspaz]

The issue with it on the HDN was lack of RAM, and the Mini would necessarily have more RAM than the HDN alone (possibly even external to the FPGA, the HDN uses nothing but the FPGA's onboard RAM), so it's at least in the realm of possibility that a 5x scale could be possible...

There are going to ultimately be other differences to the HDN: their features video shows a few options (like despeckle) that don't make sense on this FPGA implementation.

[noonan2678]

Ugh... This or the AVS? Can anyone bullet a few major differences? Can't recall if the AVS supported RGB out, but believe it did not.
I have an NESRGB front-loader already, but these are interesting for a second location in the house.

Who am I kidding...I'll prob get both.

[BazookaBen]

So there has to be a way to gauge accuracy of these FPGA units, right? Like running a few dozen games on tool-assisted playthroughs and analyzing the audio and video output?

[Guspaz]

For a processing standpoint, just seeing if tool-assisted speedruns don't desync is probably sufficient... The problem is that you need a pretty fancy setup (like the adorable tasbot) for that sort of hardware verification of TAS.

[BazookaBen]

Yeah, a desync would be an obvious red flag, but I think video and audio stuff could pop up independently. I wonder what sort of comparative tests Kevtris has done.

[Guspaz]

I know that he's scoped the composite output on the z3k (and presumably this thing) to prove that it's indistinguishable, but that's a very low-level thing: it only validates that the signal format is accurate, not that the graphics themselves are. And to be honest, while accuracy was his goal with the z3k, I'm not sure that's really the point here. What is more desirable in something like the NT Mini: having composite video output that is identical to the NES composite video output, or having the cleanest possible composite video output?

On the other hand, you could argue that people who want quality will be using the HDMI or component outputs at HD resolutions, and people who are using composite are probably shooting for accuracy.

[Elrinth]

mmm oh how I want one. the case design is something I think they could improve/redo, or is it just me?

[BazookaBen]

I know that he's scoped the composite output on the z3k (and presumably this thing) to prove that it's indistinguishable, but that's a very low-level thing: it only validates that the signal format is accurate, not that the graphics themselves are.

I guess with the NES some things you'd want to verify would be the color palette, input lag, and even if sprites flicker in the same situations. I wonder if these FPGA consoles even have sprite flicker period.

mmm oh how I want one. the case design is something I think they could improve/redo, or is it just me?

I've never been a fan of the look either. I hope they make a new shell in a year or two, assuming this thing has a market.

[Guspaz]

Sprite flickering was done by the software (the games), not the hardware. The NES will simply stop rendering sprites on a scanline when it hits the limit, so software alternated which sprites were drawn (causing flickering) to surpass that limit. Even an inaccurate emulator would have sprite flicker since it's the game doing it.

The RetroUSB AVS does have a feature where it bumps the hardware sprite limit from 8 to 15 and then attempts to patch software to change the flickering code, which seems to work quite well in some games.

[Pasky]

I didn't create this but it's a nice comparison between the two:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/epxq3dnr8j641 ... S.pdf?dl=1

[ZellSF]

I didn't create this but it's a nice comparison between the two:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/epxq3dnr8j641 ... S.pdf?dl=1

Who did create this? Seems biased to the point I'm wondering if it's Analogue Nt mini promotional material, in which case 5x scaling confirmed?

[C64c]

I didn't create this but it's a nice comparison between the two:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/epxq3dnr8j641 ... S.pdf?dl=1

Who did create this? Seems biased to the point I'm wondering if it's Analogue Nt mini promotional material, in which case 5x scaling confirmed?

Analogue created this comparison. I think its pretty shitty. The NT Mini & AVS are not even on the same level, they shouldn't be compared.
How does a Clone sell for that much? Bonkers?! The press also states its Cheaper! No its not! $50 less does not mean cheaper to me, its deceiving.

Also I'm also getting annoyed how they are going after the NES Mini. The press aren't mentioning its a Clone system and have stated it plays over 2000 NES games but fail to mention you need to OWN the games to play, where the NES Mini has them built in. Again, why are they comparing to the NES Mini.

[RGB32E]

Is the Nt mini/AVS comparison PDF linked anywhere on Analogue's site? There's a Nt mini Tech Specs.pdf on this page, which appears to be what the comparison was based off of.

Pixel Formatting - 5x, 4.5x, 4x at 1080p and Horizontal Stretch

$50 less does not mean cheaper to me, its deceiving.

https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us/ar ... t-mini-FAQ

2. It is $129 cheaper at $449 versus $578 for an HDMI upgraded unit.
3. Every $449 package includes a wireless aftermarket NES controller (8Bitdo NES30, $34.99 MSRP) and a Retro Receiver ($24.99 MSRP)

So, depending upon how you look at it, the Nt mini could be viewed as a $638 value, all for only $449! That's $189 in savings! Wow.... so order now!

All joking aside, I have a $578 Hi-Def NES upgraded Nt and I love it! The fully adjustable analog audio output on the Nt is sublime, and is a CPU/cart/mic mix - not generated by the HDN.

[bobrocks95]

How much cheaper could it be if they ditched the freaking aircraft grade aluminum? From the start it always felt like a product designed so they could charge an overpriced premium for it, but it's not like I have a dog in the fight anyway.

I wanted to post though to say they linked that pdf on Twitter, so it's definitely made by them.