New NEOGEO / Dreamcast game: "NEO XYX" NG: DEV.TEAM 2013

[dark]

It wasn't so much the visual stuff although that does help, but the general movement of enemies. You see a bit of it in Stage 1 here with the medium-tier enemies but most of the movement behaviour is quite generic.

Ah, I agree with this too. But I give NG Dev a pass because they probably only have 2-4 sprite artists and it takes so much time to create an entire game's worth of sprites to say nothing of creating hand drawn sprite variations for detailed animations. Rozyrg in the dev forum (a main sprite artist for this game) has mentioned he has probably spent hundreds of hours making the sprites so far.

[psoslayer]

The fact that people are willing to plonk down €400 for a game of this quality absolutely blows my mind.

If there's one positive thing (and that's a big if) I can say about NG Dev Team, it's that they've done a wonderful job finding a niche market to exploit.

Best post all week.

Well, it's the standard opoinon about the MVS cart by people who can't afford it. Nothing really interesting imho. The game is also for DC, and much cheaper.

[trap15]

Well look who's all high and mighty with his big ol' heaps of cash.

It has nothing to do with "I can't afford it". It has to do with how the game really doesn't look all that great (aesthetics aside), and is not nearly worth €400. The DC version might be worth it (I don't know what that'll be priced at), but charging €400 for an MVS cart just screams "HI NEOGEO, WE'RE GOING TO GOUGE YOU COLLECTORS OUT OF TONS OF MONEY BECAUSE WE KNOW YOU'LL PAY IT ANYWAYS"

[psoslayer]

Well look who's all high and mighty with his big ol' heaps of cash.

It has nothing to do with "I can't afford it". It has to do with how the game really doesn't look all that great (aesthetics aside), and is not nearly worth €400. The DC version might be worth it (I don't know what that'll be priced at), but charging €400 for an MVS cart just screams "HI NEOGEO, WE'RE GOING TO GOUGE YOU COLLECTORS OUT OF TONS OF MONEY BECAUSE WE KNOW YOU'LL PAY IT ANYWAYS"

Nah. MVS crowd are gamers - consolized MVS, or egret 2 etc.

[trap15]

And that explains why they'll pay 400 euros for a mediocre game, when they could get something much better for much cheaper?

[psoslayer]

And that explains why they'll pay 400 euros for a mediocre game, when they could get something much better for much cheaper?

Where can they get the first TATE shooter on MVS ever, that brings Topalan style and razzing gameplay back? Oh and solid rockin' gameplay as it looks. You guys are way to "sober" when it comes to non-CAVE games here.

Some could argue why getting a PCB if you can get the 360 port, my answer is obvious: it's not the same!

[trap15]

Interesting you'd call me out as a CAVE lover, when in reality, I greatly prefer Toaplan and Raizing. I might even go to say that I'm not much of a fan of CAVE's games.

Besides, the difference between a PCB and a 360 port is much different from between a mediocre game (NEO XYX) and a great game (Hishouzame, Kyuukyoku Tiger, Same!Same!Same!, Battle Garegga, etc.).

Not to add that the great games are still cheaper than this.

[Udderdude]

It wasn't so much the visual stuff although that does help, but the general movement of enemies. You see a bit of it in Stage 1 here with the medium-tier enemies but most of the movement behaviour is quite generic.

Ah, I agree with this too. But I give NG Dev a pass because they probably only have 2-4 sprite artists and it takes so much time to create an entire game's worth of sprites to say nothing of creating hand drawn sprite variations for detailed animations. Rozyrg in the dev forum (a main sprite artist for this game) has mentioned he has probably spent hundreds of hours making the sprites so far.

He wasn't talking about the art, he's talking about the enemy behaviors, i.e. how they move and react to the player. You can do plenty of complex enemy behavior even with static sprites.

[EmperorIng]

I assume that they will continue to fine-tune and tweak the enemy movements to make it look more polished. You don't necessarily need animation to have convincing movement - Cho Ren Sha 68K has basically no sprite animation and its enemy movement is very organic and memorable in and of itself.

Then again, I do not know the sprite-rotating capabilities of MVS hardware.

[Hagane]

Besides, the difference between a PCB and a 360 port is much different from between a mediocre game (NEO XYX) and a great game (Hishouzame, Kyuukyoku Tiger, Same!Same!Same!, Battle Garegga, etc.).

Well, aren't you a bit too virulent against a game that's not finished yet (and from what I've seen so far is pretty interesting)?

As for the price, I imagine that doing MVS cartridges and in such low runs must be pretty expensive and risky.

[emphatic]

Cho Ren Sha 68K has basically no sprite animation and its enemy movement is very organic and memorable in and of itself.

If only this would've had a PCB release.

[chempop]

Besides, the difference between a PCB and a 360 port is much different from between a mediocre game (NEO XYX) and a great game (Hishouzame, Kyuukyoku Tiger, Same!Same!Same!, Battle Garegga, etc.).

Not to add that the great games are still cheaper than this.

You are calling it mediocre based on a pre-beta testing trailer... kinda harsh, no? Sure those games you mentioned are great, but they are classics that have been around for ages. Is it terrible that people want something brand spanking new?

Who cares if there are cheaper and better games? With that argument I'd only be able to recommend Layer Section to people, because imho it is the best game for the least amount of money. The only comparison to make between the classic 80'-90's toaplan and NeoXYX is how awesome it is that people still care about no frills shooters that ooze style and solid gameplay. NeoXYX certainly has the style, I'm hopeful that the gameplay is right there alongside - especially with Plasmo as a Beta tester.

[trap15]

I think what I'm trying to say, is don't release such a beta-level trailer. If you're going to have a trailer, it needs to look like something completely playable; preferably something almost ready for retail and needing only minor tweaks.

Past that, 400 Euros seems like way too much, and, unless this game has been developed full time and only sees about 80-100 copies made, is a gigantic price gouge.

[psoslayer]

Yeah and don't do loke-tests, and don't charge 80 Euros for Super-play DVDs, and don't close milestones and don't make new shmups and and...

[trap15]

What are you even saying? Like, genuinely, I have no idea what you're trying to think I'm saying.

Loc-tests are fantastic because you get actual player input, from a limited set of people. The key there being actual player.

80 euros for super-play DVDs is outrageous, I'm surprised that those ever get purchased (though I'm sure they do).

I haven't significantly played any Milestone games, so I can't comment about that, but considering a fair amount of people liked them, I'm sure they were fantastic and didn't deserve death.

[Wonderbanana]

And that explains why they'll pay 400 euros for a mediocre game, when they could get something much better for much cheaper?

Where can they get the first TATE shooter on MVS ever, that brings Topalan style and razzing gameplay back? Oh and solid rockin' gameplay as it looks. You guys are way to "sober" when it comes to non-CAVE games here.

Some could argue why getting a PCB if you can get the 360 port, my answer is obvious: it's not the same!

Rubbish. nGDEV are amateur devs, pcb argument is irrelevant.

And they are exploiting a niche market, one where they have no competition, one where they won't sink without trace.

Still with the 'stellar' titles they have released to date, maybe, just maybe they'll actually get this one right.

[psoslayer]

Well, my point was that your option is biased to hell. Beta trailer are fantastic too, but to each their own.

"nGDEV are amateur devs, pcb argument is irrelevant."

LOL. A company that produces own designed PCBs that enhances the native power of the hardware is not an amateur dev.

"And they are exploiting a niche market, one where they have no competition, one where they won't sink without trace."

There's competition on Dreamcast and NeoGeo.

[Drachenherz]

[Wonderbanana]

Well, my point was that your option is biased to hell. Beta trailer are fantastic too, but to each their own.

"nGDEV are amateur devs, pcb argument is irrelevant."

LOL. A company that produces own designed PCBs that enhances the native power of the hardware is not an amateur dev.

"And they are exploiting a niche market, one where they have no competition, one where they won't sink without trace."

There's competition on Dreamcast and NeoGeo.

You can suck NGDev all you like but it doesn't change their past record. If you had brought all their highest priced games previously (format/pack), you'd have spent a LOT of money on a set of very average and in some cases mediocre games.

And not forgetting from a team that promises things that never get delivered. Their not stupid. Marketing a game on two formats with passionate and hardcore followings gives a certain amount of almost guaranteed sales and no, there really isn't a great deal of competition on either DC or MVS unless I missed their resurrection.

The one thing for me that this has in its favour is a member of the community play testing it which may well save it.

[trap15]

Well, my point was that your option is biased to hell. Beta trailer are fantastic too, but to each their own.

How is it biased? I have no ill-will towards NG:DEV.TEAM. I calls-em as I see's-em.

My issue with a beta trailer is that a trailer is supposed to show something with quality close to final release. This trailer is not nearly good enough to be a final release, if they want this to be a good game.

The one thing for me that this has in its favour is a member of the community play testing it which may well save it.

This. This is why I still have hope for this game. Come on Plasmo, save it!

[psoslayer]

Fair enough.

+1 for Plasmo

[Wonderbanana]

Should point out I'm not hating on the game, there's nothing I want more than it to be stellar. As an stg fan why on earth wouldn't I?

Being sceptical due to past performance, price & format choice is perfectly natural. The childish haters hate crap is uncalled for - an opinion is just that, it's not a call to arms.

[system11]

And that explains why they'll pay 400 euros for a mediocre game, when they could get something much better for much cheaper?

Where can they get the first TATE shooter on MVS ever, that brings Topalan style and razzing gameplay back? Oh and solid rockin' gameplay as it looks. You guys are way to "sober" when it comes to non-CAVE games here.

Some could argue why getting a PCB if you can get the 360 port, my answer is obvious: it's not the same!

Rubbish. nGDEV are amateur devs, pcb argument is irrelevant.

And they are exploiting a niche market, one where they have no competition, one where they won't sink without trace.

Still with the 'stellar' titles they have released to date, maybe, just maybe they'll actually get this one right.

How many games do they have to make before they're not amateur? I need to know so I can throw away the first few titles from Capcom, Sega etc. That Space Invaders was a proper amateur piece of shit and Taito were charging THOUSANDS! Even better, since nobody was making proper videogames, captive market lol!

Tell me how much you think it should cost to make a game on a bespoke physical cartridge in this day and age. Factor in wages, parts and offset against market size. I had some pretty simple PCBs made recently, only a few square inches, it cost me £70 without components.

There's a small demand for this kind of product, they're filling it. If they make bad products people don't like, they won't buy them anymore. I picked up Last Hope Pink Bullets MVS after trying the Dreamcast version, because it's a good game. The original version of Last Hope was not something I'd have considered buying the cart of. That's how it all works.

[emphatic]

I hope NG:DEV put out a new JAMMA hardware platform in a year and release NEO XYX Arrange Mode by trap15. For serious.

[psoslayer]

I hope NG:DEV put out a new JAMMA hardware platform in a year and release NEO XYX Arrange Mode by trap15. For serious.

loooooooool that was f***ing hilarious.

[trap15]

Tell me how much you think it should cost to make a game on a bespoke physical cartridge in this day and age. Factor in wages, parts and offset against market size. I had some pretty simple PCBs made recently, only a few square inches, it cost me £70 without components.

Making PCBs in bulk is not nearly that expensive. The most expensive part is creating the mask; much like a T-shirt.

Honestly, I'd say 200 EUR is a fair price. Maybe even 300, depending on how many carts they intend to make. 400 is just extravagant.

[system11]

Tell me how much you think it should cost to make a game on a bespoke physical cartridge in this day and age. Factor in wages, parts and offset against market size. I had some pretty simple PCBs made recently, only a few square inches, it cost me £70 without components.

Making PCBs in bulk is not nearly that expensive. The most expensive part is creating the mask; much like a T-shirt.

Honestly, I'd say 200 EUR is a fair price. Maybe even 300, depending on how many carts they intend to make. 400 is just extravagant.

Physical costs covered - how about wages?

[trap15]

No, that was both together.

I can't imagine it'd cost much more than 50 EUR to create each cart.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Are we honestly doing the whole "how much it costs to make a game" thing? When I was a kid, I remember my parents telling me how much of a ripoff video games were because it only cost a couple of quid to make the carts.

People are willing to spend money to support an independent developer. People do it because they like the games they've been putting out. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean others don't enjoy them. If you somehow look down on them for that, take your dumb snobbery elsewhere.

[Wonderbanana]

How many games do they have to make before they're not amateur? I need to know so I can throw away the first few titles from Capcom, Sega etc.

Not sure what that adds tbh. If you don't like those titles then um, sure, throw em.

Space Invaders was a proper amateur piece of shit and Taito were charging THOUSANDS! Even better, since nobody was making proper videogames, captive market lol!

Charging a lot for a dedicated cab in a completely different era. Unless I missed the mass of cheap silicon and iPhones. But yeah let's compare Neo XYX to one of the forerunners of gaming from over 30 years ago. Oh the irony hurts.

There's a small demand for this kind of product, they're filling it. If they make bad products people don't like, they won't buy them anymore. I picked up Last Hope Pink Bullets MVS after trying the Dreamcast version, because it's a good game. The original version of Last Hope was not something I'd have considered buying the cart of. That's how it all works.

I don't disagree on the whole. My opinion of the quality of their work differs to yours and makes me sceptical. Is not personal, just an opinion. It's still a lot of money for a semi pro game whatever the format. But let's face it, most people buying the MVS game are not taking a chance anyway since they'll be able to punt it for more at a later date I guess.