The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Gus]

The main thing that makes DOJ so difficult for me is how you can't even see your own hitbox. I always gett really nervous as a result when thick patterns come my way and anything remotely difficult just feels like a huge gamble. This is after spending many hours with the game.

[Captain]

the entirety of R-Type Final.

It feels like a game of chess with spaceships.

One mistake can make your grave.

[Skykid]

Daioufuckingjou is an Asshole with a capital "A".

Ain't it just.

[RNGmaster]

Psikyo, please please add deadzones for suicide bullets.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

>Encounter Mirage Castle
>There's no alternate zones without it
>Lose will to replay Darius Burst

Congratulations Pyramid, you managed to create a boss even more tedious and drawn out than Great Thing's Gaiden incarnation.

[BPzeBanshee]

Fuck you Dodonpachi. I hit that bomb button long before the bullet hit me.

Back to XOP Black Special and Minecraft I go.

[powersoul]

Fuck you Dodonpachi. I hit that bomb button long before the bullet hit me.

Happens in nearly every damned shmup I play.

[Captain]

Happens in nearly every damned shmup I play.

[Eaglet]

One of the reasons i hate playing in MAME is because no matter what i do i get input lag.
I've experienced the above situation quite a number of times.

[Ruldra]

Fuck you Viper Phase 1. I hit that bomb button long before the bullet hit me.

Fixed.

[BPzeBanshee]

Fuck you Viper Phase 1. I hit that bomb button long before the bullet hit me.

Fixed.

This is true too, though I've heard that apparently Dodonpachi in particular isn't as responsive with the bomb button specifically. Viper Phase 1's bomb explosion delay is just enough at times to feel like Raiden/Raiden II's thermonuclear bomb when it fails at instant protection....infuriating.

Some of XOP Black Special's stages are pissing me right off too at the moment. EX1's boss patterns are shiteasy while normal stage 1 boss patterns are bullshit, along with the entirety of the Ruin stage which is IMO the hardest out of the entire game.

[Gus]

I just had a run in Futari 1.5 Ultra where I ended Stage 4 with 1.8 billion then I botched the stage 5 opening and game over'd... fuck.

[ebarrett]

One of the reasons i hate playing in MAME is because no matter what i do i get input lag.
I've experienced the above situation quite a number of times.

If you mean the "but I hit bomb" situation, sounds more like brain lag to me.

[Eaglet]

If you mean the "but I hit bomb" situation, sounds more like brain lag to me.

But it aaaaint!
Or would you call the game reacting to button presses 1/4 of a second after the button was pressed anything but input lag?

[Aliquantic]

The point is that more than 4 frames of input lag or so is already unplayable, and you'd notice it when dodging bullets too, and lag doesn't just strike your bomb button. There was a handy program that simulated input lag somewhere but I can't find it again now, which made it clear how noticeable an added frame or two there. A few games do have delayed bombs, though, which are always fun!

You could always try measuring up the input lag in MAME itself in a semi-scientific way by advancing frame by frame, though, or even check your display lag if you have a spare CRT lying around (input lag is more or less bound by MAME itself, outside of a particularly weird setup, but display lag is a more likely culprit, though again you'd feel it even when dodging).

My main grievance always: why are early stages in most games so boring and dull A few games excepted like Futari God/Ultra and the MMP special courses, but otherwise... Like in Progear where there isn't much scoring variation in the first loop, and the last stage is the only challenging thing for me now (and then the second loop obliterates me). DOJBL too, where not being able to realistically chain 1-3 and 1-4 just meant that it takes 15 minutes to get one shot at the fun 4 minute-long 1-5 chain, and it's do or die for scoring purposes (and then you do it again on the loop). Training helps tremendously, but I don't have the patience to do many full runs now

[Gus]

Once you've put as much time as I have into Futari God/Ultra you'll see how restarting the first 2 stages a billion times fucking wears you down. It has its advantages like forcing you to take the rest of the game more seriously but if I was playing at an arcade at 100 yen per credit or didn't have 10+ hours to spare on weekends I'd definitely go something with the easier first few stages.

[Aliquantic]

Haha true, I hadn't taken that into account

[Eaglet]

Ah, ok, i see where the confusion might arise. (yaay engrish)
The input lag is of course not restricted to bombing. It is affecting everything. If i make a tap in any direction, the screen, sound, etc. won't register the tap until like 1/4 of a second after the button had been let go off. Very noticable. Games where you do a lot of sweeping motions are playable, but accurate tap dodging (the kind needed in Daioujou for an example) doesn't really work... teh suxxorz.

And yeah, Ultra stage 1...
Dem rocks.

[O. Van Bruce]

If you are complaining about imput lag... just play Touhou 6, 7 and 8 without the V-sync patch... or almost every touhou (though is scandalous on the mentioned games)...

[Eaglet]

Thank God i don't play ToeHoe then.

[Aliquantic]

There's not much to be glad about since it's easily fixed with a patch and only affects two games (Touhou 8 is fine) on certain setups... there are plenty of reasons not to like Touhou, this isn't one of them

[O. Van Bruce]

(I put it on the wrong thread)...

I have:

- 1st looped Dai-Ou-Jou

- Got to stage 5 on Ketsui

- And today I played Subterranean Animism on Normal and died like 6 or 7 times... (got the 1cc but only with 2 lives left)

Is there something wrong with me?

--------------------

And about Touhou... well... I just can't stand how is more difficult to make diagonals on a Touhou Game than on any Cave game...

[Illyrian]

Touhou fucks people up if they play cave games. Something about the graphical style or bullet design just makes people retarded. I'm guilty as charged with this, since playing lots of other shmups i can't 1cc those games anymore really.

[Aliquantic]

Does Touhou also endanger your ability to make posts?

[Ruldra]

The point is that more than 4 frames of input lag or so is already unplayable

Fun fact: I've played and beaten most shmups without knowing about input lag. When I checked, most of them had 4 frames of input lag. I guess you get used to it after playing for a while.

[Illyrian]

Does Touhou also endanger your ability to make posts?

Is that aimed at me?

[ebarrett]

oh boy it has been so long since the last cave vs toho derail

[Elixir]

This isn't worth making a blog entry over, so here goes:

I've been trying to learn Touhou UFO. And, well, I have a few issues with MoF (I 1cc'd this on Lunatic, for reference) and the Touhou games since then. ZUN took a certain direction in using power for bombs, or incredibly gimping the player so it's almost impossible to maintain full power throughout a full run in SA/UFO, which I hate. It's something that puts me off playing R-Type and older shmups entirely--the feeling of being completely underpowered. This isn't even an issue that ZUN had to begin with; EoSD, PCB and IN are perfectly fine games. It's more or less the act of using power for bombing, or being unable to recover which seriously takes the fun out of the game.

I think SA/UFO are inferior to MoF for this reason. MoF at least has a coherent scoring system, of which can be used in a chain-like manner. SA consists entirely of grazing, and eliminates the usefulness of the item get barrier. UFO's scoring system isn't bad, but still suffers from the recovery issue I mentioned above. In particular, the game rewards you for maintaining progress, as having full power against a certain boss or certain card will result in the attack actually being easier, as it'll end quicker. Mess up and it's back to square one. This leads to bombing through harder patterns to make other patterns easier.

This is something that does not exist in things like PCB, as you'll have x power at x boss, every time. For EoSD Lunatic, Cirno's easier if you manage to max out your power entirely before her, but it's not necessary and you'll probably be bombing her once on Lunatic anyway.

It's something that isn't seen in things like Ketsui, where even if you die in 1-4 or 1-5, you don't lose all your power. It's actually possible to fully recover and reclaim your footing, something which SA/UFO lack. In SA/UFO, losing your footing on latter stages shoehorns you into bombing, and with UFO specifically, shoehorns you into bombing in order to sort out UFOs accordingly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, ZUN should try making something based on EoSD/PCB/IN fundamentals, as that trio is pretty much the core of the series. All of these newer ones miss something that made those three titles interesting.

[Vyxx]

This isn't worth making a blog entry over, so here goes

There's nothing worth making a blog entry over.

[chempop]

Edit: whoops wrong topic