Which of the Touhou Games is the Best in the Series?

[Krull]

Ten years and most graphics still look the same... ZUN should really slowdown the releases and come back with fresh ideas and new sprites imho...
Btw i enjoyed Imperishable Night for a while.

Cya

=K

[Zengeku3]

maybe my problem is (more about) bad bullet hitbox memorization then? (seeing them as larger than they actually are, and thus limiting my options more than really needed)

I'm pretty sure that bullets in a lot of other shooters have smaller hitboxes, as to give you a bit of leeway. I did hear that certain bullets in DDP have smaller hitboxes than their sprites although a lot harder to actually see since your hitbox is invisible.

though Danmakufu boss scripts that can be actually fun to play, touhou works best in that form

Probably because most of those I've seen only consists of boss fights leaving out the stages in which nothing happens from the official games.

fun until you get to lunatic
lol memorization

So it was fun when things was pathetic and became not fun when things started to pick up a bit of difficulty? I really fucking hate memorization based spellcards so if that's all there was to Touhou I would've never liked it to begin with. Unless your idea of memorization is the necessity to have a general idea of what's going on. If that's the case then I'll need to remind you that no good shmup can exist without a bit of memorization. Memorization is basically a necessary ingredient in designing an interesting stage or attack. Just not an ingredient you want too much of. Then you get things that will kick your ass until its memorized and from that point on will require no thought whatsoever.

[Despatche]

"a skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both"

touhou, like all non-random shmups, is about memorization, execution, and the bit of reflexes needed to get you through whatever random parts there are; it's like any other non-random activity

the thing is that people focus on forcibly removing/ignoring as much complexity as possible so that the memorization and execution is low enough for them to deal with; this is where the "no thought" and the "braindead easy" comes in, e.g. "stop sitting at the bottom of the screen"

it should be obvious what this eventually blows up into; i hear these "touhou fans" (it seems to be mostly this group, and i think i know why) complain about it all the time

edit: if you're not going to read my post, at least read ncp's

[Zengeku3]

Most of the hardcore memorization in a Touhou game is usually a sign of incredibly lazy sign. There would generally be nothing more to it than sit on this spot, wait for 3 seconds, move a bit to the left, sit there for 2 seconds, move back again and etc. Once you know this path you'll be all set but if you don't know the specifics, be prepared to die.

I wouldn't really call doing away with something like that to be doing away with complexity but rather doing away with some druken guy's lazy design, especially considering that the guy is actually capable of making quality content when he actually designs to make something out of it. There is a very big difference between the complexity of a fixed pattern that requires you to figure out a pattern and not giving you a chance if you do it otherwise and a pattern which is difficult to understand, completely random and fun to wrap your mind around.

Or maybe I just misinterpreted your post, idk.

low enough for them to deal with

Yeah, uhh who exactly do you mean here?

[Sapz]

Despatche: I think people would understand what you mean more easily if you said what you meant directly rather than making these bizarre sentences full of vague, roundabout implications. :V I agree with the point you're making though, aside from possibly the last sentence since I'm not positive on what you're actually talking about there. Calling everything a boring memo-fest, maybe?

[Zengeku3]

And I'm not really sure I understand what the point is. I'm just guessing here.

[Naut]

some sort of hipster lingo no doubt

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I think what he's trying to say that "memorization" is not a valid criticism and I can agree with that. If a game is too hard for you, man up and be honest about it! Don't give up on a game because you think there's only one road to success!

[shadowbringer]

"a skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both"

touhou, like all non-random shmups, is about memorization, execution, and the bit of reflexes needed to get you through whatever random parts there are; it's like any other non-random activity

the thing is that people focus on forcibly removing/ignoring as much complexity as possible so that the memorization and execution is low enough for them to deal with; this is where the "no thought" and the "braindead easy" comes in, e.g. "stop sitting at the bottom of the screen"

it should be obvious what this eventually blows up into; i hear these "touhou fans" (it seems to be mostly this group, and i think i know why) complain about it all the time

this definition of skill doesn't limit itself to memorization. There are a lot of other factors such as reaction time, dynamic foresight, playfield management and such (and I haven't even gotten into the matter of players' virtues and flaws). So, not all skill equals to memorization, and this definition of skill can't be used to associate all skill with mainly memorization.

the thing is that people focus on forcibly removing/ignoring as much complexity as possible so that the memorization and execution is low enough for them to deal with; this is where the "no thought" and the "braindead easy" comes in, e.g. "stop sitting at the bottom of the screen"

or rather
- be in place X before an enemy or group of enemies appear at the screen so you can graze their shots
- know that enemies will appear at places X,Y,Z,etc. in EoSD stage 4 (just an example, meaning that there's more) so that you minimize the amount of effort needed for actual dodging
- play in a way in which you can exploit invulnerability/near point-blank grazing against certain enemies in EoSD stage 5 (dying because the invulnerability from respawning will allow you to point-blank graze fairies' shots), enemies which you must be aware of before they appear, or else you won't be rewarded (scoring-wise) as much

and you seem to forget that memorization often makes playthroughs less difficult, for enemy attacks (in shmups in general) which rely more on them. This is noticeable when certain attacks become much more easier after memorizing them. This is the matter of overrewarding memorization (and just a survival-oriented example) which I was mentioning earlier. Let me just give you an example of non-overrewarding memorization: in Battle Garegga, a medal falls off the screen, there are lots of ways to get it (by dodging through the shots aggressively or patiently, or revealing another medal if you have enough foresight and the opportunity). There are a lot of ways you can dodge through enemy shots, and you're not punished, scoring-wise, for not being at "optimal places" (only at rare occasions such as stage 2's flamingoes), nor are required to play perfectly.

[ncp]

Seriously I think we've been over this like 1000 times before on this forum. If you're complaining about memorization in shooters, especially danmaku style, you're playing the wrong genre. Nobody is trying to say 100% of skill is memorization, don't try to spin it like that. Garegga requires insane amounts of memorization btw lol

[shadowbringer]

Seriously I think we've been over this like 1000 times before on this forum. If you're complaining about memorization in shooters, especially danmaku style, you're playing the wrong genre. Nobody is trying to say 100% of skill is memorization, don't try to spin it like that. Garegga requires insane amounts of memorization btw lol

As for Garegga, are you sure you're trying to remember only the relevant details (beginning of stage 3, how to milk bosses, where the brown kamikaze ships appear, how Black Heart's sweeping attack works, what to avoid doing in stage 3's midboss)? Or are you trying to memorize actions that could be dynamically remembered instead (flying platforms on stage 5, destroyable scenery)?

Seriously I think we've been over this like 1000 times before on this forum. If you're complaining about memorization in shooters, especially danmaku style, you're playing the wrong genre.

I don't know if this was a serious response, honestly.
Especially because of

more like you memorize stuff if you want to get anywhere in any shooter on any difficulty

moving on...

Memorization is basically a necessary ingredient in designing an interesting stage or attack. Just not an ingredient you want too much of. Then you get things that will kick your ass until its memorized and from that point on will require no thought whatsoever.

this is really what I think. If you have too much necessary checkpoints to remember (non-dynamically), this means that both the efforts for survival and scoring are more heavily affected by how well you memorize, over the use of other abilities. Including dodging. (just another way to define "overrewarding memorization", really)

btw I forgot to reply to this

I'm pretty sure that bullets in a lot of other shooters have smaller hitboxes, as to give you a bit of leeway. I did hear that certain bullets in DDP have smaller hitboxes than their sprites although a lot harder to actually see since your hitbox is invisible.

I felt that, after taking hits in DDP and ESP Ra De, the bullet hitboxes were more discernable (Marisa's small stars in IN are also more discernable, the brighter color on the center helps it). Maybe it's the relation between the hitboxes and the bullet's sprites (so that the hitbox can be visually seen better), but I feel I keep overestimating the size of bullets and using more bombs than would be needed in the Touhou games (seeing walls which aren't really walls, or even clipdeaths which may be just my impression if the hitboxes aren't as large). Maybe there's a complication, too, in that I don't like to ignore scoring (had to avoid point items when clearing EoSD Lunatic the first time, in order to remind myself to keep avoiding to try to score), so I'm supposed to know how close to bullets I should be, and/or how close bullet hitboxes are to my character's hitbox (in the case of bullet streams or groups). Individual bullets aren't much of a problem, but for grazing groups or endangering yourself so you can graze more bullets, hitbox knowledge helps, and I feel I lack it.

[Zengeku3]

I think what he's trying to say that "memorization" is not a valid criticism and I can agree with that. If a game is too hard for you, man up and be honest about it! Don't give up on a game because you think there's only one road to success!

Hmm... if there is one thing IN isn't, its too hard for me. I can basically 1-life the thing up to Kaguya and sometimes a good while into her battle. Memorization is basically a valid criticism when it boils down to something like Hourai Jewel where I basically can work out a colour code and use the colours of the bullets as an indicator as to when to move. However, this path is hard to remember since its so damn specific and will have me finish the run through bombspamming and it looks ugly.

If memorization is a question of remembering spawn points or remembering that you have to circle around the fairies in UFO Stage 3 for example, its all good with me. Another good example is Ichirin's 2nd spellcard where you might wanna know that the fists move in this specific pattern is also fine for me since it adds up around making a spellcard that's more interesting than micrododging at the bottom of the screen, also known as PCB syndrome.

Seriously I think we've been over this like 1000 times before on this forum. If you're complaining about memorization in shooters, especially danmaku style, you're playing the wrong genre. Nobody is trying to say 100% of skill is memorization, don't try to spin it like that. Garegga requires insane amounts of memorization btw lol

Nah. Only memorization in Touhou games. In Cave and similar danmaku games the memorization is implemented in entertaining ways and normally the memorization is mainly restricted to learning a path through the stage and scoring related things. In Touhou they are implemented as a means of a lazy challenge that will completely trivialize itself when its worked out. In conjunction with a lot of other things that are easy you get a lot of waste-time when working on the hard stuff or just a really easy time with a boss who doesn't have any hard spells. A good example would be that danmaku reject you find in MoF Stage 5 whose sad attempts at killing you is only made more sad when you know that you can deal with all these riduculously slow moving projectiles by following a scripted path everytime.

[Despatche]

I think people would understand what you mean more easily if you said what you meant directly rather than making these bizarre sentences full of vague, roundabout implications.

no, don't try to sugarcoat anything, there's nothing "vague" about it. the second half of that post was an attack, plain and simple.

when you first encounter a game, you want to learn the basics and work your way up. some people refuse to go past these basics, maybe because they don't understand what's being asked of them, or because they're scared of what's up there, or whatever. the problem comes from them attempting to make judgments about the game when they don't understand anything beyond these basics. it used to just be people complaining about dodonpachi chaining and yagawa rank, but now we've got this group of people from the shrinemaiden boat complaining about every-fucking-thing in touhou games. nope, these people are not people like heartbeam, or sapz, or zetsumarshen, because i'd think they all get the point; yes, all games are "boring memo/exec/reflex-fests", because that is entirely how non-random activity works.

and yes, what i'm saying just boils down into lrn2play. unfortunately, just saying that never seems to work. the people who say it are always considered "the problem", and the original complainers just go right back to complaining about dodonpachi chaining, yagawa rank, and every-fucking-thing in touhou games, despite never planning on understanding any of it, and making all these dumb judgments about things they don't understand. stop distilling everything down to its most basic and considering that "the game", and then criticizing all that advanced stuff anyway. seriously, the zunart haters have more of an argument 90% of the time.

i know you touhou guys really just want to drop your game because you apparently hate it so much, and i know you don't care about scoring at all and hate people who have to bring it up. but please, stop referring to everything as a "flaw" just because you don't understand or like something. if you don't like something, just say you don't like something. this goes for pretty much everyone ever about everything, really. hah, try to figure that one out.

and if you're not going to read this either, just go read ncp's post.

[Zengeku3]

but now we've got this group of people from the shrinemaiden boat complaining about every-fucking-thing in touhou games.

And there is two reasons I came here. #1; Shrinemaiden doesn't allow this kind of discussion at all. They even have a rule that forbids comparisons between Cave games and Touhou games with the excuse being that the comparison is stupid. #2; I was hoping that I could discuss with players who has some skills. Not because your opinion doesn't count if you are a newbie but because its pretty hard to convince someone who is getting destroyed by the very same stagee you are calling boring. Or just defending the stage because of the music or the character it belongs to and other such nonsense.

I know you touhou guys really just want to drop your game because you apparently hate it so much, and i know you don't care about scoring at all and hate people who have to bring it up. but please, stop referring to everything as a "flaw" just because you don't understand or like something.

Personally I don't hate Touhou at all. I still play it from time to time. But I want it to become something you can play full time again. Touhou is the reason i got into shmups and I used to play it all the bloody time never with a second of doubt that it was the best game ever...

All I want is for ZUN to do something in consideration of all the Touhou veterans out there. Make it challenging again. And not just the bosses because if the only thing getting harder is the bosses then we get the practice-tedium problem. Easy stages you have to go through everytime is not fun. That's why ZUN needs to make the stages challenging again. Not because they ever were but when you sucked at shmups, the stages were challenging. They aren't any longer though. Now its only the bosses that's challenging... sometimes which makes the games a very mixed bag. Like a three minute load screen before each boss.

I like Touhou when its challenging and fun but when thats only 30% of the time then I feel I have something to complain about.

If I just wanted to troll, I'd go to Lunatic Red and troll them instead.

[Treasurance]

Then why the hell don't you get a Danmakufu already? Mostly boss only scripts that often are more interesting (and harder) than anything ZUN has ever made.

[Erppo]

#1; Shrinemaiden doesn't allow this kind of discussion at all. They even have a rule that forbids comparisons between Cave games and Touhou games with the excuse being that the comparison is stupid.

So you're really unable to discuss this without the inane trolling (which is all that really was banned)?

#2; I was hoping that I could discuss with players who has some skills.

Implying Shmups Chat has better Touhou players or even any higher average skill.

[Zengeku3]

Then why the hell don't you get a Danmakufu already? Mostly boss only scripts that often are more interesting (and harder) than anything ZUN has ever made.

Because I can't make that vsync patch work and whenever i try and play danmakufu scripts without them I get an ungodly amount of input lag.

So you're really unable to discuss this without the inane trolling (which is all that really was banned)?

Its pretty hard to argue about something if you aren't allowed to refer to people who have done better. Granted, its easier now that I've gotten to know Crimzon Clover. I'm pretty sure that isn't included in the "No Touhou vs. Cave rule".

Implying Shmups Chat has better Touhou players or even any higher average skill.

And that is what I would expect from a forum for shmup players. We could also rephrase it a bit and say that I came here, actually by Bananamatic's suggestion, hoping that the people here would have better arguments than immaterial things like 'characters'.

At least I haven't such yet.

[Despatche]

you're complaining about a lack of challenge, yet don't want to put up with the game's challenge (scoring systems). you dared to walk into a forum that you knew tended to hate the actual game in touhou more than most "touhou fans" could ever possibly want to know about the game at all, and you still don't quite understand these games no matter how much you seem to want to.

the reason why you're not getting what you're looking for is because what you're doing is taking an issue with fundamental values of these games and insisting they have no place, and writing off what's simply two different amounts of memorization, execution, and a bit of reflexes as entirely different concepts because you can deal with one and not the other.

no, i'm not really surprised you were banned. you need a different genre, maybe even a different hobby.

[Treasurance]

best touhou game=this thread

Because I can't make that vsync patch work and whenever i try and play danmakufu scripts without them I get an ungodly amount of input lag.

I think had to apply that UPX executable packer thing on the vsync patch (using command line)

[Sapz]

I think people would understand what you mean more easily if you said what you meant directly rather than making these bizarre sentences full of vague, roundabout implications.

no, don't try to sugarcoat anything, there's nothing "vague" about it. the second half of that post was an attack, plain and simple.

when you first encounter a game, you want to learn the basics and work your way up. some people refuse to go past these basics, maybe because they don't understand what's being asked of them, or because they're scared of what's up there, or whatever. the problem comes from them attempting to make judgments about the game when they don't understand anything beyond these basics.

yes, all games are "boring memo/exec/reflex-fests", because that is entirely how non-random activity works.

Aha, gotcha. Agreed here too, then.

So you're really unable to discuss this without the inane trolling (which is all that really was banned)?

This is correct. Seriously, have you even seen that thread again since it happened? It was painful to read. At any rate, we have the STG thread for that kind of thing.

#2; I was hoping that I could discuss with players who has some skills. Not because your opinion doesn't count if you are a newbie but because its pretty hard to convince someone who is getting destroyed by the very same stagee you are calling boring.

Interestingly enough, I actually see the opposite more often, which is even more hilarious to read - people getting destroyed by stages and then calling them boring.

Personally I don't hate Touhou at all. I still play it from time to time. But I want it to become something you can play full time again. Touhou is the reason i got into shmups and I used to play it all the bloody time never with a second of doubt that it was the best game ever...

All I want is for ZUN to do something in consideration of all the Touhou veterans out there. Make it challenging again. And not just the bosses because if the only thing getting harder is the bosses then we get the practice-tedium problem. Easy stages you have to go through everytime is not fun. That's why ZUN needs to make the stages challenging again. Not because they ever were but when you sucked at shmups, the stages were challenging. They aren't any longer though. Now its only the bosses that's challenging... sometimes which makes the games a very mixed bag. Like a three minute load screen before each boss.

I like Touhou when its challenging and fun but when thats only 30% of the time then I feel I have something to complain about.

The solution to this, as has been mentioned a bunch of times before in various places, is to play for score. The stages are designed with their respective scoring systems in mind - they're designed to provide a challenge to newbies and intermediate players and provide lots of challenging scoring spots for advanced players, whereas you seem to be under the impression that they should be designed as a challenge to clear at all by advanced players - I understand the appeal of a crazily hard difficulty but that's just not really how a game is designed if it wants to be at least somewhat accessible (i.e. not an Ultra mode or second loop or that kind of thing). Futari Original, Ketsui first loop, DOJBL first loop, for example... stages which are difficult at first until you learn them, and then become fairly simple if played for pure survival, at which point you add in scoring to keep them challenging. You'll find that as you move from survival to score, these moderately difficult stages will make the transition to incredibly hard by themselves due to the scoring risks you'll have to take to do well in them.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I do wonder what a Touhou second loop would be like if Zun ever got the idea to do one.

And yeah, if the game's are boring, you should learn how to play them for score. There are a few I'd like to learn how to play for score, but I haven't really put much serious effort in. None of them are easy when you do. And SA and UFO aren't easy even for survival.

Also, on the subject of second loops, being able to start at the loop would be a nice feature. I think only Muchi Muchi Pork allows that due to its Harahara mode.

[Despatche]

The solution to this, as has been mentioned a bunch of times before in various places, is to play for score. The stages are designed with their respective scoring systems in mind - they're designed to provide a challenge to newbies and intermediate players and provide lots of challenging scoring spots for advanced players, whereas you seem to be under the impression that they should be designed as a challenge to clear at all by advanced players - I understand the appeal of a crazily hard difficulty but that's just not really how a game is designed if it wants to be at least somewhat accessible (i.e. not an Ultra mode or second loop or that kind of thing). Futari Original, Ketsui first loop, DOJBL first loop, for example... stages which are difficult at first until you learn them, and then become fairly simple if played for pure survival, at which point you add in scoring to keep them challenging. You'll find that as you move from survival to score, these moderately difficult stages will make the transition to incredibly hard by themselves due to the scoring risks you'll have to take to do well in them.

he believes that playing touhou games for score just makes them even worse, yet demands challenge anyway. how do you respond to something like that?

I do wonder what a Touhou second loop would be like if Zun ever got the idea to do one. Also, on the subject of second loops, being able to start at the loop would be a nice feature.

i'm pretty sure his "multiple difficulties" is implemented to counteract these. what zun should do is have this gigantic "all difficulties" gauntlet mode; remember how you could loop into the other modes in raiden dx? i wonder how many people could even finish something like that...

either way, lunatic could do with a serious tlb, even if it's just another form of the final boss or something. not that extra stages are a bad thing, but they're not the same (and zun has no illusions about that, you get them for beating /normal/, or even _easy_ for in). on the other hand, they're great for the whole "caravan" thing.

[Zengeku3]

you're complaining about a lack of challenge, yet don't want to put up with the game's challenge (scoring systems).

Hey. I don't mind playing Touhou for score. If just the guy would implement MoF, IN or PCB's score system in games with actual challenge. PCB's bullets moves so slowly that any lag spikes will cause them to move so slowly that they might as well be moving backwards and the stages are the most static and boring messes I've ever seen. (Except for Stage 3 and 6 - credit should be given when due) - The score system is great but just wasted on a game like that.

When ZUN finally decides to make some cool games MoF, SA and UFO. Those really satisfy my tastes when it comes to bosses and SA and UFO both have 2 good stages. Its a step in the right direction. Just too bad that SA's score system is based around suiciding and bombing while UFO's not that bad but chaining those UFO's is more of a pain than an interesting challenge.

the reason why you're not getting what you're looking for is because what you're doing is taking an issue with fundamental values of these games and insisting they have no place, and writing off what's simply two different amounts of memorization, execution, and a bit of reflexes as entirely different concepts because you can deal with one and not the other.

What? I'm perfectly capable of both kinds of memorization. Memorizing and pulling off the same pattern every time isn't hard at all. Things like Keine's 2nd spell or Sanae's 1st. Both really easy but not even remotely fun. Having to memorize the general order of what's happening and how you are generally supposed to do it means more entertaining concepts than just random bullets but still with a sense of randomness to keep things interesting. That kind of memorization is more difficult for me and more fun for me and that's why I want it.

no, i'm not really surprised you were banned. you need a different genre, maybe even a different hobby.

I've never been banned from there. Probabed once but that was because I was being a prick. Not because I was talking about the games.

I don't see why I should wanna find another genre. Maybe just another game since the stages are obviously designed to be challenging until you realize how you move your character. However, i don't wish for it to be like this. As I said, I'm having fun playing Touhou but there are serious issues that I need to have adressed.

Interestingly enough, I actually see the opposite more often, which is even more hilarious to read - people getting destroyed by stages and then calling them boring.

Maybe because Touhou stages are so slow-paced. Have you noticed those dead-spots where there is like 30-seconds of literally nothing happening because the music needs to get in sync or because some text needs to be displayed?

But really though, I generally only complain about boredom because they bore me. Not because they destroy me. UFO Stage 2. Is boring and easy. UFO Stage 3 is slow paced but it has good variety and some challenging parts and as such become what I call a good stage. Simple as that.

whereas you seem to be under the impression that they should be designed as a challenge to clear at all by advanced players

Yes. How else should it hold appeal if the idea of suiciding for points don't catch you?

- I understand the appeal of a crazily hard difficulty but that's just not really how a game is designed if it wants to be at least somewhat accessible

Then have people who desire easy accessibility to play Hard mode and let Lunatic be for the lunatics?

Futari Original, Ketsui first loop, DOJBL first loop, for example... stages which are difficult at first until you learn them, and then become fairly simple if played for pure survival, at which point you add in scoring to keep them challenging. You'll find that as you move from survival to score, these moderately difficult stages will make the transition to incredibly hard by themselves due to the scoring risks you'll have to take to do well in them.

Those stages at least has a lot faster pace and their respective games doesn't have score systems that says "Hey, dying sounds like a good idea!". Or you know, popping bombs or trances and sit on the bosses through all their attacks in the newest one.

[Despatche]

you insist on separating the scoring system from the rest of the game. you cannot understand that even when you find a game with "fun stages" and a "fun scoring system", whatever that may entail, you're still going to have to actually play it, which you've told me that you don't want to do. you really do need to find another genre. you can't even cater to yourself.

a more meritable concern at this point is why anyone's even putting up with this nonsense.

[Zengeku3]

I never said I don't want to play. Whatever are you talking about?

[dunpeal2064]

I didn't know there was a rule to not compare Touhou to Cave.

That made my day.

[BSM]

Just too bad that SA's score system is based around suiciding and bombing while UFO's not that bad but chaining those UFO's is more of a pain than an interesting challenge.

That's a pretty huge generalization on SA's scoring. Go watch more replays. And what exactly is wrong with bombing for score, exactly?
And what's not interesting about charging straight into bullet patterns for UFOs? One would think that you (of all people) would enjoy such a risk-reward system o 3o

Maybe because Touhou stages are so slow-paced. Have you noticed those dead-spots where there is like 30-seconds of literally nothing happening because the music needs to get in sync or because some text needs to be displayed?

now isn't this the best time to chain your ufos
i mean really this isn't brain surgery or rocket science is it
In any case if you took away those breaks, you wouldn't be able to touch the top of the screen (reliably) for scoreplay.

Then have people who desire easy accessibility to play Hard mode and let Lunatic be for the lunatics?

So you want to increase the difficulty gap between Hard and Lunatic? Read between the lines.

[Zengeku3]

And what exactly is wrong with bombing for score, exactly?

Not that much. I do that all the time in MoF too in order to convert bullets into faith and to make sure i get all the score items. It's more the idea of suiciding I consider conflicting.

And what's not interesting about charging straight into bullet patterns for UFOs? One would think that you (of all people) would enjoy such a risk-reward system o 3o

To be honest, its not that bad of a system. The UFO's move around in a seemingly random pattern and as such you can't really depend on them being there when you need them. I'm not a fan of their colour-switching thing and having a UFO run away on you just before you kill them is pretty irritating.

I do realize that those 'flaws' are results of my own shortcomings though and could be dealt with with more practice but it doesn't really speed up the pace of the stage.

now isn't this the best time to chain your ufos
i mean really this isn't brain surgery or rocket science is it
In any case if you took away those breaks, you wouldn't be able to touch the top of the screen (reliably) for scoreplay.

You are right. It is an excellent time but that still doesn't change the fact that its slow. DDP's chaining and Ketsui's point-blanking can work with a fast pace. Why can't ZUN cook up something that doesn't need to go slow-mo for it to work?

So you want to increase the difficulty gap between Hard and Lunatic? Read between the lines.

'Kay then just make the other modes harder too. Just not that much. Its no problem, I wouldn't mind.

I didn't know there was a rule to not compare Touhou to Cave.

That made my day.

"Touhou vs. Cave arguments are hereby banned. This shit is as stupid as IaMP vs. SWR and we're tired of looking at it.
Anyone caught trying to stir shit up about how one series is better than the other will be landed on with extreme prejudice."

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

WTF I don't remember hearing much about IaMP vs SWR debates if any at all. I kinda assumed that people accepted SWR was vastly inferior but stuck with it anyway for whatever reason. Oh yeah, and if Touhou is too slow for you, Toaplan and Psikyo will always be there to pick up the pace~

[VgameT]

The issue I have with scoring in most Touhou games is that you start with a pretty understandable scoring system and then try to find as much funny business as you can to break it. Like, on the surface UFO's scoring seemed like an interesting risk-reward thing where going for MAXIMUM POINTS meant starving yourself of resources, but then the actual game is sitting inside of bullet spawnpoints to get gigantic graze counts/bombing for invincibility grazetime/throwing away spellcard bonuses to spawn more item-carrying enemies, etc. The other part is important too, of course, but you have to do weird shit that probably wasn't in the game intentionally in order to have a competitive score.
Like, I can't imagine ZUN designing a bossfight and thinking "the player shall bomb three times here, and then kill himself, and then bomb three more times, timing it out. Then he shall position himself on top of the boss sprite, being mindful of its hitbox, to touch every bullet as it is spawned so that he may graze them without worrying about collision."

That stuff exists in every shooting game, I'm sure, but Touhou games seem to have a lot of it. It's kind of interesting (and kind of hilarious) to hear about but I'm not really interested in learning how to do that stuff, at all. I can enjoy just loading them up and shooting some stuff, though, so whatever!