Why shmups are such a niche genre

[replayme]

hi, i read about 4 pages of this thread before i was motivated into adding my 2 cents to this discussion:

a) i hate bullet-hell. i don't understand as to how (and why) someone can get kicks out of wanting a game to be nearly impossible. i don't define bullet hell games as "games". there isn't much "fun" to be had from having the crap beaten out of you and i am certainly not a sadomasochist.

b) i want the shooter genre to get more mainstream attention so that developers can find it easier to gain funding and support from the market. many of your beloved shooter companies closed down for a reason. as to why you think the shooter genre should remain niche (therefore making it harder for companies to market and sell their games) is beyond me.

c) advances in modern technology have resulted in me demanding more from my games. i want my games to be aesthetically pleasing, and not looking like shit. this is why i loved games like axelay, einhander, ikaruga and radiant silvergun because they had amazing production values for their time. if i wanted retro crap that hasn't aged well, i would dig out my amiga or boot up a mame arcade game. i also would make it my business to not buy a modern console. ever.

d) nostalgia and repetition only gets you so far. most of you demand old-school gameplay mechanics, and yet fail to realise that the shooter genre now suffers from a distinct lack of originality as a consequence. this is why games like radiant silvergun (with it story based narrative and rpg inspired combat mechanics) and ikaruga (with its polarity system)are regarded as a breath of fresh air - these games "innovate" within the parameters of a very restrictive format. treasure may not have made many shooter games in their history, but since when did quantity of output ever matter when the quality of their offerings have been so incredibly high. each and every one of their shooter games has been a seminal milestone in innovation and has ensured to extend the appeal of the shooter genre. compare treasure's contribution to cave's and you'll soon realise that treasure are to shmups what valve are to the fps genre - and to this extent they beat cave hands down with its tried and tested identikit bullet-hell blasters. most people have simply tired of playing the same games over and over again. how many of you say the same things about the average identikit beat-em-up, driving game or fps and then you wonder as to why the reaction of the average game player is the same when they say that the shooter genre is tired and stale also.

e) i don't know about you, but i have a lot of games within my collection that are waiting to be played. i simply don't have the time (nor the inclination) to perfect a game and revel in its score attack mode. i want to complete a game, beat the bosses and its (fair) challenges, and move on. there are far too many good games that are out there vying for my attention, and if i don't attain a certain level of progress with a specific amount of time, i will move on. granted: the great thing about shooters is that they offer instantaneous experiences and that they are very pick-up-and-play. to this extent, they aren't very far removed from what the casual audience has in mind. if develops can listen to the demands of the casual audience (by making them easier and making them look flashy), whilst retaining what it is that makes them unique, then we might see a resurgence in their popularity. have them as mini-games, or better yet, develop them for iphone or promote them on flash sites where the majority of casual players go for their gaming needs.

i don't care if people call me a noob because of my lack of experience on this forum. it is true that i don't have as much experience in the genre as the majority of you, but these are my opinions.

[Udderdude]

i don't care if people call me a noob because of my lack of experience on this forum. it is true that i don't have as much experience in the genre as the majority of you, but these are my opinions.

noob.

[EinhanderZwei]

Dear Mr replayme, I wanted make a joke to your every second statement, but to avoid useless offense I've just counted the jokes I could make. The total number is 56 Go play Crysis - maybe you'll find RPG elements in its combat mechanics too

P.S.

i don't care if people call me a noob because of my lack of experience on this forum. it is true that i don't have as much experience in the genre as the majority of you, but these are my opinions.

noob.

[xris]

Why register in a forum for a genre you don't like? Let's incurage a sence of tradition! Shumps are the first video game genre and will be the last. Viva power ups! Death to bosses!

[esreveR]

I would probably play more modern shmups if I understood how to score.

[Dale]

Sections C and D make me hate you. Why does everyone like Ikaruga so damn much it's like one of the three shmups that mainstream people will only ever play. Seriously every arcade game you play on mame looks dated to you? Do you just like 3-d graphics? If your looking for innovation you need to look at Pysaivair,Giga Wing and all of the many homebrew games that have very unique idea's. And to say that all Cave games are the same in no new thought is put into them from title to title is insanity.

Oh and fuck Ikaruga

[EPS21]

I find Ikaruga more difficult than some of Cave's offering, granted I haven't played it nearly as much.

i hate bullet-hell. i don't understand as to how (and why) someone can get kicks out of wanting a game to be nearly impossible. i don't define bullet hell games as "games". there isn't much "fun" to be had from having the crap beaten out of you and i am certainly not a sadomasochist.

Did you know the hitbox of the ship/character in most these bullet hells is much smaller than they appear?
You also seem to suffer from my opinion > yours

[spl]

Hey guys,

I think replayme just answered the question of the topic and shown the general casual gamer consensus of the genre.

The sadomasochist comment is the funniest thing I've heard all week.

[Rob]

you'll soon realise that treasure are to shmups what valve are to the fps genre

Last 5 years: HL2 Eps 1 + 2, Portal, Left 4 Dead 1 + 2, Team Fortress 2. Treasure: jack shit.

e) i don't know about you, but i have a lot of games within my collection that are waiting to be played.

About me - I don't, no.

You made an awful post for its time.

[captpain]

I don't really find Cave's games to be all that cookie-cutter, though of course you can tell they're made by the same developer. Guwange, Progear, ESP Galuda -- these games play very differently to me.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

i think replayme does have a point tho, if u like verts, want good eye candy but hate bullet hell, casual or not there isnt anything made to cater for them. Although imo he should give up the notion that a games graphics need to be fantastic if theyre to be fun and look into playing indie titles. edit: if he cant get his jollies in mainsteam

And he sortof hilighted another reason why shmups dont appeal to casual players is because of this silly notion that a game must be completable in a short length of time so that the gamer can quickly move onto the next must play game everyone and his mother is raving about and that if they dont get to play the game within a couple of months after release their heads will explode.

In a way for those of us who almost exclusivly play shmups only getting a handfull of titles (that they like) can be though of as a blessing in desguise, since it means ull spend more time with each game.

[thamasha69]

Why does everyone like Ikaruga so damn much it's like one of the three shmups that mainstream people will only ever play

Because it was released on xbox live.

Many that I talk to are clueless and have no idea what I am talking about when I say Ikaruga was released in arcades on Sega Naomi hardware..ported to Dreamcast...etc, etc, etc. They think it's new and great and such due to XBLA and HD.

[Rob]

I wonder what they think the 2001 on the title screen means.

[Ebbo]

I just love the way topics here somehow eventually end up: people start to bash Ikaruga.

[Danbo]

I just love the way topics here somehow eventually end up: people start to bash Ikaruga.

it's quite easily explained, as time stretches out into infinity the probability of someone saying something retarded tends to 100% and if someone says something retarded then 10 times out of 10 they will like ikaruga

[Udderdude]

I just love the way topics here somehow eventually end up: people start to bash Ikaruga.

it's quite easily explained, as time stretches out into infinity the probability of someone saying something retarded tends to 100% and if someone says something retarded then 10 times out of 10 they will like ikaruga

It's like Godwin's law, but for shmups.

[Skykid]

Sections C and D make me hate you. Why does everyone like Ikaruga so damn much it's like one of the three shmups that mainstream people will only ever play. Seriously every arcade game you play on mame looks dated to you? Do you just like 3-d graphics? If your looking for innovation you need to look at Pysaivair,Giga Wing and all of the many homebrew games that have very unique idea's. And to say that all Cave games are the same in no new thought is put into them from title to title is insanity.

Oh and fuck Ikaruga

Ikaruga isn't for fucking, it's a good game - but I agree its overrated by people. It's a very thankless, taxing game to play that feels too much like work to learn, and lacks broad appeal because of it. Definitely rewarding, but not unless you like pain.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19696

Why register in a forum for a genre you don't like? Let's incurage a sence of tradition! Shumps are the first video game genre and will be the last. Viva power ups! Death to bosses!

Noob.

[replayme]

Why register in a forum for a genre you don't like? Let's incurage a sence of tradition! Shumps are the first video game genre and will be the last. Viva power ups! Death to bosses!

that's like saying that the only games one needs to play are those spawned by atari. man, i don't know about you... but pong (as the first genre) gets pretty old (pretty fast) when comparing it to modern "classics".

oh: and i never did like pac-man (just in case you traditionalists wanted to know).

you guys seem to think that just because something is old-school, that it has earned the right to not evolve and to look like shit (just like the wii). as if that makes you think that you lot are all "hardcore".

i'll take whatever it is that you guys are having...

[EinhanderZwei]

Why register in a forum for a genre you don't like? Let's incurage a sence of tradition! Shumps are the first video game genre and will be the last. Viva power ups! Death to bosses!

that's like saying that the only games one needs to play are those spawned by atari. man, i don't know about you... but pong (as the first genre) gets pretty old (pretty fast) when comparing it to modern "classics".

oh: and i never did like pac-man (just in case you traditionalists wanted to know).

you guys seem to think that just because something is old-school, that it has earned the right to not evolve and to look like shit (just like the wii). as if that makes you think that you lot are all "hardcore".

i'll take whatever it is that you guys are having...

Sorry for what my best friend calls 'e-penis measurement', but I don't see any proof for us all to halt and listen to you

[replayme]

Why register in a forum for a genre you don't like? Let's incurage a sence of tradition! Shumps are the first video game genre and will be the last. Viva power ups! Death to bosses!

that's like saying that the only games one needs to play are those spawned by atari. man, i don't know about you... but pong (as the first genre) gets pretty old (pretty fast) when comparing it to modern "classics".

oh: and i never did like pac-man (just in case you traditionalists wanted to know).

you guys seem to think that just because something is old-school, that it has earned the right to not evolve and to look like shit (just like the wii). as if that makes you think that you lot are all "hardcore".

i'll take whatever it is that you guys are having...

Sorry for what my best friend calls 'e-penis measurement', but I don't see any proof for us all to halt and listen to you

hmmm... yeah, i concede defeat. i'm always going to have the masses against me. what with their awful tastes.

don't say that i didn't try to help you guys...


If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. (Anatole France)

[Danbo]

savoir n'est rien, imaginer est tout

[Udderdude]

hmmm... yeah, i concede defeat. i'm always going to have the masses against me. what with their awful tastes.

don't say that i didn't try to help you guys...

If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. (Anatole France)

hahahahahaha

[CptRansom]

I can't tell if he's serious or just trolling.

[z0rly]

Casual Gamers like replayme are why i don't want STGs to be mainstream. think of how much worse they necessarily must be when stripped down and shat all over to appease people like him.

[Taylor]

I was going to respond to replayme bit by bit. I did a nice little piece on how the fundamental design principal of Bullet Hell is to look a hundred times harder than it actually is. That they are far from being impossible and, if anything, they are about making you feel like the most skilled, bullet dodging legend in existence for just tapping your ship right a few pixels a second. It even had some confessions that I am hopeless at the games of yore but have no problem with Cave's efforts.

But while that seems like an innocent, common misconception. I couldn't think a nice response for b). And then I read through the rest, deleted my post, and sort of sat in a "is this a troll?" daze.

[EinhanderZwei]

I can't tell if he's serious or just trolling.

I don't know any trolls that come up with SUCH hilarious speeches

[z0rly]

hi, i read about 4 pages of this thread before i was motivated into adding my 2 cents to this discussion:

looks like you need to do a lot more reading than that, and outside this forum. like in school maybe.

a) i hate bullet-hell. i don't understand as to how (and why) someone can get kicks out of wanting a game to be nearly impossible.

actually they're impossible for retards like you who, judging from your post and how much you have thought about the subject, can't focus or think about anything for any appreciable length of time.

i don't define bullet hell games as "games".

bullet hell games are not games. this is it folks. your extreme and singular level of stupidity, demonstrated by this statement, has made all untold millions of casual gamers look on the average TWICE as stupid. great job.

there isn't much "fun" to be had from having the crap beaten out of you and i am certainly not a sadomasochist.

except there is, from STG players' point of view. oh wait, you're one of those actively hopeless cases who believe in a Universal criteria of "fun," whatever that means.

b) i want the shooter genre to get more mainstream attention so that developers can find it easier to gain funding and support from the market. many of your beloved shooter companies closed down for a reason. as to why you think the shooter genre should remain niche (therefore making it harder for companies to market and sell their games) is beyond me.

how about wanting the shooter genre to get LESS mainstream attention. many of my beloved genres (FPS, RTS, RPG, etc) turned into mostly complete shit once they received enough mainstream attention for a reason. as to why you think the shooter genre should become mainstream (therefore making it harder for companies to make good games) is that you, being a mainstreamer, love the trash that companies are spewing out for you and moreover has the special combination of idiocy and hostility to think companies of niche games should also cater to your bad tastes.

c) advances in modern technology have resulted in me demanding more from my games. i want my games to be aesthetically pleasing, and not looking like shit.

you have about as much developed sense of aesthetics as a piece of dog turd floating in a river.

this is why i loved games like axelay, einhander, ikaruga and radiant silvergun because they had amazing production values for their time.

sounds like you should stop pretending to like video games and instead watch Hollywood blockbusters 24/7 with your eyes taped open.

if i wanted retro crap that hasn't aged well, i would dig out my amiga or boot up a mame arcade game. i also would make it my business to not buy a modern console. ever.

on the contrary buying a modern console is right up your alley as they have lots of bad games you can sate your appetite with, i don't get why you would want these 'terrible' shooting games to be 'better' when you have a piles of Gaming Gold in the form of Uncharted 2 and its ilk just waiting to be delivered to your doorstep.

d) nostalgia and repetition only gets you so far. most of you demand old-school gameplay mechanics, and yet fail to realise that the shooter genre now suffers from a distinct lack of originality as a consequence.

spoken like a mouth breather who probably has not even seen a modern STG in action, being played properly, let alone played one lol. if you really did, you wouldn't be spouting this claptrap.

this is why games like radiant silvergun (with it story based narrative and rpg inspired combat mechanics) and ikaruga (with its polarity system)are regarded as a breath of fresh air -

"story based narrative" "rpg inspired combat mechanics" lmao. two things i specifically DON'T want to see when playing a shooting game. i bet you call stuffing your own shit in your mouth and breathing the fumes breaths of fresh air too. with your posting, no doubt they've had an effect on your cognitive abilities too.

these games "innovate" within the parameters of a very restrictive format. treasure may not have made many shooter games in their history, but since when did quantity of output ever matter when the quality of their offerings have been so incredibly high.

since literally anyone set out to learn any craft or skill. things that are obviously beyond mainstreamers like your kind. treasure games are 'high quality' in their disregard for STG mechanics and shackling the format to those of other genres through story and 'rpg' combat mechanics. i regard it in the same way a piece of shit has 'high quality' ability to smell bad, and your posting has 'high quality' ability to cause faces to be covered with palms in disbelief.

each and every one of their shooter games has been a seminal milestone in innovation and has ensured to extend the appeal of the shooter genre.

extend the appeal of the shooter genre to ignoramuses, sure. anyone who settles on treasure and does not seek to develop a deeper understanding of the genre through other games by cave, raizing and psikyo frankly doesn't like shooting games.

compare treasure's contribution to cave's and you'll soon realise that treasure are to shmups what valve are to the fps genre - and to this extent they beat cave hands down with its tried and tested identikit bullet-hell blasters.

i agree, valve has shat all over the FPS genre and made it a shell of its former self.

most people have simply tired of playing the same games over and over again. how many of you say the same things about the average identikit beat-em-up, driving game or fps and then you wonder as to why the reaction of the average game player is the same when they say that the shooter genre is tired and stale also.

the reaction of the average game player is no mystery, it is as simple as wondering why an idiot without legs thinks those people with legs keep running around are obviously easily amused nerd sadomasochists who keep doing the same thing (being mobile) over and over again

e) i don't know about you, but i have a lot of games within my collection that are waiting to be played.

some of us like to PLAY video games, casuals and mainstreamers like you apparently just like to collect them.

i simply don't have the time (nor the inclination) to perfect a game and revel in its score attack mode. i want to complete a game, beat the bosses and its (fair) challenges, and move on. there are far too many good games that are out there vying for my attention, and if i don't attain a certain level of progress with a specific amount of time, i will move on.

actually, there are far too many BAD games that are out there vying for MY attention. ever think about that? Retard.

granted: the great thing about shooters is that they offer instantaneous experiences and that they are very pick-up-and-play. to this extent, they aren't very far removed from what the casual audience has in mind. if develops can listen to the demands of the casual audience (by making them easier and making them look flashy), whilst retaining what it is that makes them unique, then we might see a resurgence in their popularity.

i didn't know pick up and play = casual shit game. of course, that's all you ever play, so you can't imagine anything different.

have them as mini-games, or better yet, develop them for iphone or promote them on flash sites where the majority of casual players go for their gaming needs.

what's funny is that this has been happening, yet even the most agape-mouthed flash game playing Casual realizes STGs in those forms are shit for the most part.

i don't care if people call me a noob because of my lack of experience on this forum. it is true that i don't have as much experience in the genre as the majority of you,

you're a noob idiot and this hedge just shows how wrong you already know you are, and how ill-advised your post was and yet you decided to post anyway. lol.

but these are my opinions.

you don't need to tell anyone with a brain this. i already know it is your opinion. in case if you didn't know already (because you're not likely to, because you're dumb as a rock): this post is my opinion.

[TMR]

granted: the great thing about shooters is that they offer instantaneous experiences and that they are very pick-up-and-play. to this extent, they aren't very far removed from what the casual audience has in mind. if develops can listen to the demands of the casual audience (by making them easier and making them look flashy), whilst retaining what it is that makes them unique, then we might see a resurgence in their popularity.

If the developers make the games easier and start worrying about the cosmetics over the gameplay, we've already lost what makes them unique at that point; when these games were mainstream the companies tried that, the results tend to get lumped together under the "Euroshmup" banner (much as i hate the term personally, it's a useful shorthand) and there were usually attempts to cross pollinate with elements from other genres in there as well - most of the people here dislike them, i'll play anything personally but some of the worst offenders like Xenon 2 just get on my nerves pretty rapidly.

have them as mini-games, or better yet, develop them for iphone or promote them on flash sites where the majority of casual players go for their gaming needs.

Personally i don't have a problem with casual gamers (one of these days i'll try writing a casual shoot 'em up because it'll be an interesting design exercise) but regardless of genre they're not really going to play the same games as more committed players and any big publisher taking a risk will expect something based on the casual-geared games so targeting the casual market simply doesn't get anyone else the games they want to play. Casual gamers don't usually play first person shooters or RPG games either, but i doubt any fans of that genre would want the difficulty settings on their favourite games boiled down to casual gaming levels.

[CptRansom]

Casual gamers don't usually play first person shooters or RPG games either

WAT

[TMR]

Casual gamers don't usually play first person shooters or RPG games either

WAT

It depends a little on the definition of "casual gamer" of course, but the average FPS or RPG is too involved a game to be considered casual as such. A casual FPS would have to lead the player everywhere by the hand rather than relying on them knowing at least some of the conventions of the genre; i don't know some of those conventions personally, so i struggle on games that have been described as too easy by regular FPS players and that's the equivalent of people coming to shoot 'em ups and complaining about the difficulty (except that i don't expect all the FPS makers to alter their games so i can play them).