DoDonPachi (New Thread #4)

[moozooh]

WHY WOULDN'T YOU CHAIN THE FIRST 2 EASIEST LEVELS ?THATS THROWING AWAY 15+ MILLION POINTS.
PLAESE NOT TO GIVE ADVICE

WHY WOULDN'T YOU LEARN TO NO-MISS THE FOUR HARDEST LEVELS FIRST? THAT'S THROWING AWAY 60+ MILLION POINTS.

O WAIT, YOU NEVER GOT THAT MUCH IN THE FIRST PLACE.

PLAESE NOT TO GIVE ADVICE.™

[Ravid]

I don't know how arcade-only players manage to get so good without the ability to practice stages over and over (unless of course they're playing batrider or some such game that lets you do this).

They play 10 times as long as you do to learn the same thing and achieve the same results.

I'm sorry, but you really don't have any evidence for this apart from your own heuristic argument. Save state practice certainly helps one learn a specific part of a game quicker, but DDP is a whole game of bits that can be improved upon. Ask yourself, are you really so perfect and consistent at stage X that you need to skip it to practice stage X+1? Most people should be quite happy to practice stage X on the way. Playing complete runs also improves your general shmup skill and consistency, that is, amount of time you can play without making 'mistakes.'

Practicing without savestates is a perfectly legitimate way of improving, and if you're happy playing that way you should stick with it. I also agree with moozooh's advice; try to chain stage 2 but don't worry too much about it, once you've played through it 100 times you'll be able to naturally develop chaining routes. Obsessively playing stage 2 on save states until you can chain it from start to finish is a great way to make yourself hate the game.

For what it's worth, I never use save state practice.

Updated.

[PROMETHEUS]

Don't bother chaining the first stage. Stage 2 is only good for second loop hit chain requirement, otherwise I wouldn't bother with it either. Practice survival on stages 3 to 6 instead, as it brings way better results in any respect.

I dont agree, stage 1 is very easy to chain compared to all the rest so it's a good introduction for whoever has any trouble with it. Then stage 2 is a lot harder but easier than all the others and the points it gives are not negligible at all, so again it's very good practice before trying to chain stage 4...

[linko9]

Well, everyone's got their own style of play. For me, when I just play straight runs over and over, I actually start to get worse, and I get extremely frustrated. I almost considered giving up on this game until I started using savestates to practice; at that point, I was able to consistently improve every day I played the game, and the game became about 100 times more fun. In the end, you should play the game in the way that is the most fun for you, and obviously that will be different for each person.

On an unrelated note, I hate stage 3. The green teleporting ships keep killing me.

[Krondelo]

Well, everyone's got their own style of play. For me, when I just play straight runs over and over, I actually start to get worse, and I get extremely frustrated. I almost considered giving up on this game until I started using savestates to practice; at that point, I was able to consistently improve every day I played the game, and the game became about 100 times more fun. In the end, you should play the game in the way that is the most fun for you, and obviously that will be different for each person.

On an unrelated note, I hate stage 3. The green teleporting ships keep killing me.

Yeah man, I guess you are using A-L right? So I could see that part being a bitch. Its quite easy with C-S as you can take them all out really quickly. What I do is just take out a few, then bullets start to fill the screen and you destroy the ship, all the bullets are gone, destroy em real quick before they can shoot again. Sorry this is kinda obvious.

[TLB]

I just learned the locations well enough to kill them before they were too dangerous.

As for arcade players, don't forget that they all talk to and watch each other AT the arcade. You can learn a hell of a lot, extremely quickly in some cases, this way. I use savestates to learn parts that give me trouble and later stages, but in a game like DDP, I'd be playing for the clear before scoring, and starting to develop chains along the way. It's actually more fun to play it that way; game is boring as hell.

I should probably try this approach with DOJ, assuming I'm ever able to play it again >_>

[jpj]

WHY WOULDN'T YOU CHAIN THE FIRST 2 EASIEST LEVELS ?THATS THROWING AWAY 15+ MILLION POINTS.

WHY WOULDN'T YOU LEARN TO NO-MISS THE FOUR HARDEST LEVELS FIRST? THAT'S THROWING AWAY 60+ MILLION POINTS.

the two aren't mutually exclusive. i think it's possible for someone to learn to chain the first 2 stages, as well as holding their max bomb bonus through the later stages. the really audacious among us might even practice both on the same credit

[PROMETHEUS]

I don't know how arcade-only players manage to get so good without the ability to practice stages over and over (unless of course they're playing batrider or some such game that lets you do this).

They play 10 times as long as you do to learn the same thing and achieve the same results.

I'm sorry, but you really don't have any evidence for this apart from your own heuristic argument. Save state practice certainly helps one learn a specific part of a game quicker, but DDP is a whole game of bits that can be improved upon. Ask yourself, are you really so perfect and consistent at stage X that you need to skip it to practice stage X+1? Most people should be quite happy to practice stage X on the way. Playing complete runs also improves your general shmup skill and consistency, that is, amount of time you can play without making 'mistakes.'

I had missed your post there. Yes, when you get good, you're that consistent at stage X that you should skip it to practice stage X+6. If you weren't, there would be no way you could get such a high score, since Dodonpachi requires you to no miss no bomb the whole game to score well. "General shmup skill" exists, but you train that a lot better if you spend time on harder stuff, stuff that is hard for you. 30 hours of savestate practice do me a lot more good for shmup skill and consistency than 150hours of runs.

Here is some evidence on this very highscore board. BR1 practiced entirely without savestates and played 700 hours, I practiced with them and played 600 hours. I have no special gift (no one does), I just practiced the most efficient way. Same thing happened with Guwange.

Now if you enjoy playing differently, that's another matter. I'm just saying if you want to improve as fast as possible, that's the best way by a long shot. Happens to be the most fun by a long shot for me as well.

[wiNteR]

Totally agree with this. If I already know how to survive and chain the first two levels with fair success, I am not sure how playing them again and again would help me any further.

I think that, given the same skill level, reaching the same score or progression by using save states (or stage select) is way easier than without them. My personal experience, with whatever games I have played, also conforms to this.

I think, for two loop games, this effect is even more pronounced than one loop games. This is simply because the upper limit of difficulty is much higher in these games than one loop games. So practicing through these second loop sections at your disposal is invaluable. With full runs, this would require at least 30-40min of play each time, just to get a chance to figure that section.

[charlie chong]

well i managed to learn to chain the first 2 levels and keep my no bomb bonus till the 5th level with no save states on the pcb so it's not that hard. you should always make your chaining route a no bomb route too !
my no bomb usually goes kaput on the 5th level tho
i also think it's safer to try and guarantee yourself entry to the 2nd loop on the 2nd level because the 5th level is easy to get the chain but also easy to get trapped and bomb/die and then fuck up your entry to the 2nd loop.

[ncp]

I went through and made a save-state for each level to practice, and never ended up using them. They feel strange. In other news, if I can throw together a decent run I'll be above 100m (probably by a pretty good chunk, too) as I can chain sections of 4 and 6 better now, but I've been spending all my time on street fighter 3.

edit: Also for what it's worth I'd throw in with the "learn stages 1 and 2" camp, as it lands you about 19m going into stage 3 and guarantees a loop if you mess up your stage 5. Just practice your stages 4/5/6 as you do runs, and do your best to chain the second loop, that's what I do and I find it damn fun. Chaining on the second loop is scary as hell, even with the more lenient timer.

[Ravid]

Well there's obviously some support on both sides of the save-state coin, and your example is certainly suggestive, Prometheus. I still don't think you should be so prescriptive, though; I personally have found that my progress without save state practice has been much better than with (when I first started with shmups, I tried both approaches). I actually find it extremely surprising that BR1 practiced for 700 hours to obtain his score, as I played for only 100 hours to obtain 2/3 of it.

Now if you really are no missing the first loop 95% of the time, then I admit it makes sense to skip it to practice the harder stages. I really don't think, though, given the level of play on most of the high score table, that anybody except you (Prometheus) can justify skipping any stage other than perhaps the first, and that only takes 2 minutes to play through anyway. This certainly applies to people competing to get on to the bottom of the table.

In conclusion, don't do what Prometheus says or what I say, but rather what you enjoy the most.

[PROMETHEUS]

Well me and BR1 started playing DDP at noobie level, of course results would be very different if you had already gathered some skill at another game. AST-Peyosan for example started playing DDP a couple weeks ago, and he already scored 150M (he's the #1 occidental DOJ player).

I still think even a 2 minutes gain is invaluable. I often practiced over 50 times in a row the same small section of the game to get it down good. Or Hibachi thousands of times. But yeah, do what you enjoy the most. If you're after performance, I think you should use my advices.

Actually I had started writing a guide on how to practice DDP, discussing ship types, controllers, using videos and save states, how and when to play full runs... But I stopped in the middle. Maybe I'll finish it one day, don't really know if anyone would read it though!

[Ravid]

I'm sure people would read it, given how much higher your score is than everyone else's here. Of course, I would probably disagree with much of it!

[linko9]

Improved a bit. Did great on the first three levels, but screwed up a lot on 4 and 5



linko9 - 43,926,670 - A-L - 1-6 - 465 Hits

And Prometheus, I would really love to see you finish that guide, as would many others I'm sure. As for the ongoing argument, I think it's worth noting that even for someone like me who is pretty new to the game, I never really mess up on the first two levels anymore, so it's at least 5 minutes of my life that I save every time I want to practice any portion of the game now. For example, I was having trouble with the green enemies in level three, so I sat down and practiced that section about 30 times. I think the section takes about 30 seconds, so in total I spent 15 minutes learning that section. If I made myself play from the beginning to that point 30 times, it would have taken me maybe 180 minutes to learn that section. Again, the point of games is the have fun, so do whatever's fun for you, but I think Prometheus' point stands that if you want to get the best score you can in the shortest amount of time, it's best to practice the same section over and over.

[Krondelo]

Yeah, Linko you make a good point. See I came into DoDonPachi as a bullet Hell noob, and actually I believe it was my first Cave game. I have played it a lot, no where near as much as some of you guys obviously, but A LOT of time for me. At least 50 hours so far. Your post makes me wish I had save states, because I get frustrated going through the first level when I don't really need to practice it, especially when I somehow F it up.

[charlie chong]

no missing no bombing the first 4 levels doesn't give you 60 million anyway moozooh .. if i could string together my rubbish pattern and not fuck up i could easy get 70 million.whether it happens or not is another thing

[wiNteR]

Actually I had started writing a guide on how to practice DDP, discussing ship types, controllers, using videos and save states, how and when to play full runs... But I stopped in the middle. Maybe I'll finish it one day, don't really know if anyone would read it though!

You mentioned somewhere that the game was running slightly faster (about 4 or 5%) for you in the emulator and you didn't know. How should one check that and make sure that game is running at its original speed. I don't remember which topic this was originally discussed in.

[TLB]

Well me and BR1 started playing DDP at noobie level, of course results would be very different if you had already gathered some skill at another game. AST-Peyosan for example started playing DDP a couple weeks ago, and he already scored 150M (he's the #1 occidental DOJ player).

I still think even a 2 minutes gain is invaluable. I often practiced over 50 times in a row the same small section of the game to get it down good. Or Hibachi thousands of times. But yeah, do what you enjoy the most. If you're after performance, I think you should use my advices.

Actually I had started writing a guide on how to practice DDP, discussing ship types, controllers, using videos and save states, how and when to play full runs... But I stopped in the middle. Maybe I'll finish it one day, don't really know if anyone would read it though!

I would absolutely love reading it, and I don't even like DDP that much. In fact, if you posted any kind of guide, I might actually start playing this game for score. As it stood, I had planned on clearing the first loop with A-L or B-L for kicks, but you never know...

[moozooh]

no missing no bombing the first 4 levels doesn't give you 60 million anyway moozooh .. if i could string together my rubbish pattern and not fuck up i could easy get 70 million.whether it happens or not is another thing

Not the first 4 levels, I was talking about stages 3 to 6. Max multiplier does wonders on those even if you don't actively attempt to chain (you'll get small chains in the hundreds of hits with some ships either way if you just keep shooting), and it can give you those 60 million. The reason I'm suggesting not learning stage 2 (or better yet, stage 1) chain before chains on stages 4 to 6 is that they're just much more expensive even if broken midways. And if one cannot survive the first loop, what business do they have on the second one, anyway?

[PROMETHEUS]

Actually I had started writing a guide on how to practice DDP, discussing ship types, controllers, using videos and save states, how and when to play full runs... But I stopped in the middle. Maybe I'll finish it one day, don't really know if anyone would read it though!

You mentioned somewhere that the game was running slightly faster (about 4 or 5%) for you in the emulator and you didn't know. How should one check that and make sure that game is running at its original speed. I don't remember which topic this was originally discussed in.

Use F11 to display the FPS monitor in mame while running Dodonpachi, and make sure the percentage counter says 100% and not 104% (fps count should oscillate between 57 and 58).

Well it seems there's some interest so I guess I'll finish that guide when I got time. I'll try making a nice looking PDF out of it.

[Plasmo]

I'd be very much interested in this. Not just because it's about DDP, but also because it'll have some general information about how to gain skill and training plans etc.

[PROMETHEUS]

Yeah that's what it's meant to be, I think I wrote it in the introduction, that it's meant to share my experience with DDP but that a lot of what is said can be used to practice any other STG or perhaps game in general.

[linko9]

Very slight improvement, but it's been a long time since I last set my high score, so I'm posting it anyway .



linko9 - 44,616,740 - A-L - 1-6 -470 Hits


Does anyone know if it's possible to score 5 points in this game? For some reason I recall getting a score that ended in 5 once, but I'm beginning to think I imagined it.

[moozooh]

You just continued 5 times.

[linko9]

Hmm... well I actually never use continues, so I must have imagined it. But that is cool, I never knew that about continues (though I knew other games did it).

[stanski]

Just as a note, but most of the top speedrunners in the speedrunning community practice on emulator or with save points before doing the full console runs, but some of the best runners out there only do full runs always to learn (and some learn very fast, getting amazing runs done in <1 month). No one way is write imho.

Also, some guy figured out almost all the secrets here in raiden fighters 2 even before the internet, jap vids, etc., just by playing in the arcade. I don't think he spent a ridiculous amount of time playing, he just observed other players, would try out lots of stuff in runs, and was very talented. There are so many secrets in that game though its amazing that he basically figured them all out within 1 year after the game came out and got an amazing score that is still the high score in the area (and i think higher than almost any score here on shmups). Something is to be said for different learning styles and natural talent/experience.

Personally when I was playing ddp, i tried savestating but found that i was messing up in the 3rd and 4th stages a lot from lack of practice, while when i did full runs i practiced these parts naturally and got through them smoother.

[PROMETHEUS]

I don't believe in natural / innate talent, I think that's a myth. There are faster or slower learners, but the difference comes most of the time from the difference in already-acquired skills between the compared persons.

[linko9]

Finally managed to keep my bomb bonus through stage 4 (but then died at the very end of the level...)



linko9 - 48,174,530 - A-L - 1-6 - 466 Hits

[Enhasa]

I don't believe in natural / innate talent, I think that's a myth. There are faster or slower learners, but the difference comes most of the time from the difference in already-acquired skills between the compared persons.

I'd say a lot of it also has to do with different people's willingness to get better. Most people are casual gamers and have no interest in even improving at all at anything they play or really anything they do.

The same person's willingness or level of caring can also vary between activities or even genres of the same activity. I wish this wasn't true but I'm sure my fighting game skills are hurt by this. I'm always considering dropping all other games for a year to play fighters only, to see if I can come closer to reaching my potential. Don't know if I'd have the balls to do that, and in the meantime, many fighter players already gladly play only fighters.