5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[j^aws]

...
and then, if I can, I will be in real trouble trying to say "no" next time that someone shows up and ask to vote for Contra...
...

What concerns me is that you 'say' you've followed the discussion in the thread, and if you understood the 'discussion', you'd realise the criteria I posted 'traps' games like "Contra" and "Metal Slug"...

EDIT:

May I suggest you re-read the thread to refresh your memory?

[Turrican]

EDIT:

May I suggest you re-read the thread to refresh your memory?

There, I did, but with little results.

Page 5 has your first long post in which you settle the camera/gameworld/character tablet, but not Contra nor Metal Slug are mentioned.

Page 6 is wasted by the fact that you thought I was referring as Solvalou, the game, while I was referring to Solvalou, the Xevious ship.

In page 7 I was the only one to mention Contra...

So either you assume you've been explaining your point somewhere, in which case redirect me to the exact point, or just explain again what these "traps" are in your opinion.

Cheers.

[j^aws]

EDIT:

May I suggest you re-read the thread to refresh your memory?

There, I did, but with little results.

Page 5 has your first long post in which you settle the camera/gameworld/character tablet, but not Contra nor Metal Slug are mentioned.

Page 6 is wasted by the fact that you thought I was referring as Solvalou, the game, while I was referring to Solvalou, the Xevious ship.

In page 7 I was the only one to mention Contra...

So either you assume you've been explaining your point somewhere, in which case redirect me to the exact point, or just explain again what these "traps" are in your opinion.

Cheers.

Okay...

Are you sure you understand the above? ...I tested a boundary condition with it which I was familiar with, i.e. Quartet...If quartet is allowed, then it let's in run'n' guns like Metal Slug?

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 418#219418

Just to be clear, my 'revised' criteria also implied this (in my large post), not the one you quoted above. Because it has a qualifier (obstacles) and allows for fixed screen with character 2D. If it isn't obvious, it allows games like Centipede.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 422#219422

...You quoted the 'wrong' test, which was a hint to me that you failed to read my 'mind dump' post, because...

Together with my 2 criteria posted earlier in the thread (slightly modified);

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 212#219212

You've been hinting to me that you lacked reading comprehension... nevermind understanding the concepts I posted in 9 dimensions. The internet isn't exactly the best medium for technical discussion...

[Blade]

Have to confess, I haven't voted this year on account of my deterioration of not having played any new shmups in a while.

[j^aws]

Studying only the videos again, Senko is more akin to Space Wars than Psychic Force on video evidence alone, IMO.

You can draw a virtual line in the sand and disqualify something like Psychic Force by defining an additional criteria involving melee attacks...

E.g. Cybattler, RSG, Gundhara all have basic 'melee' attacks... you can write a rule that accepts something like Senko but not Psychic Force...

Btw, anything that's still not clear from the earlier discussion, please feel free to ask for clarification...

[Veracity]

Can't comment on TSS, but boss fights are a different matter - you still play versus the computer, only against a bigger enemy.

Bosses aren't necessarily any larger than the player, which I assume is what dai jou bu was getting at. Otherwise, you'd need to disqualify Shikigami no Shiro.

[j^aws]

...
It's just my two cents but... keep the arena shooters out.
...

I just want to point out the above hypocrisy because...

...
When I asked to include tube shmups into voting, all I was doing was to show they already had the requirements to fill the current definition.
...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 886#219886

...Yeah, it's okay for *you* to use technicalities to qualify one of *your* desired shmups but not for *someone else* to use technicalities to include *their* desired shmups...

[Turrican]

...
It's just my two cents but... keep the arena shooters out.
...

I just want to point out the above hypocrisy because...

...
When I asked to include tube shmups into voting, all I was doing was to show they already had the requirements to fill the current definition.
...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 886#219886

...Yeah, it's okay for *you* to use technicalities to qualify one of *your* desired shmups but not for *someone else* to use technicalities to include *their* desired shmups...

Sigh, somehow I just knew it was going to end like this...

[cigsthecat]

You're wrong there Turrican...it's never going to end. Never! Not until all games are classified as schmups.

[j^aws]

...
Sigh, somehow I just knew it was going to end like this...

Just pointing out inconsistencies. It's difficult to have intelligent discussion when this occurs. Especially when this thread is littered with *worthless* one-line troll posts...

[cigsthecat]

If only someone would edit out all the *intelligent* multi-line discussion.

[Ceph]

Arena shooters are allowed now? Who decided that? Seems to be a very bad idea. Could someone make a list of games that are considered "arena shooters" ? Are games like Berzerk, Loaded (PS1) and Granada (MD) arena shooters?

What about stuff like Mercs / Commando and Ikari Warriors? Are they ok now, too? I mean, they certainly are more shmup-like than Smash-TV.

[Herr Schatten]

keep the arena shooters out.

Arena shooters are allowed now? Who decided that? Seems to be a very bad idea.

I agree with these gentlemen.

[j^aws]

Studying only the videos again, Senko is more akin to Space Wars than Psychic Force on video evidence alone, IMO.

You can draw a virtual line in the sand and disqualify something like Psychic Force by defining an additional criteria involving melee attacks...

E.g. Cybattler, RSG, Gundhara all have basic 'melee' attacks... you can write a rule that accepts something like Senko but not Psychic Force...

Btw, anything that's still not clear from the earlier discussion, please feel free to ask for clarification...

Oh, when considering melee attacks, don't forget the classic beat-em-up with wings, aka... SOL DIVIDE... with it's chained combo's...

-----------------------

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:55 am Post subject:
Arena shooters are allowed now? Who decided that? Seems to be a very bad idea. Could someone make a list of games that are considered "arena shooters" ? Are games like Berzerk, Loaded (PS1) and Granada (MD) arena shooters?

What about stuff like Mercs / Commando and Ikari Warriors? Are they ok now, too? I mean, they certainly are more shmup-like than Smash-TV.

Seriiously, I can't believe you're asking this question now... have you read Zachs first post in the voting thread?

From your list, I've voted for Ikari Warriors and Smash TV's prequel, Robotron 2084...


Also, if you've followed the discussion in this thread, you should be able to decide whether they're eligible or not... and anything that needs clarification, just ask...

[Ceph]

@j^aws
You've been going on for pages- tl;dr.

07) No Borderliners! Stuff that's off-limits generally include: "run-and-gun" (think Contra or Mercs)

What? So I can vote for Smash TV and Berzerk but not Mercs? That doesn't make sense, at all. Can we please simply go back to the way it was?

[j^aws]

@j^aws
You've been going on for pages- tl;dr.

Hey, I didn't start the debate. If you're gonna join in this late in the thread, have the courtesy to read it first. I'm sure I've seen you re-direct noobs starting threads with links/ advice to do a search, then promply saying "lock please"...

07) No Borderliners! Stuff that's off-limits generally include: "run-and-gun" (think Contra or Mercs)

What? So I can vote for Smash TV and Berzerk but not Mercs? That doesn't make sense, at all. Can we please simply go back to the way it was?

Ask Zach, perhaps it''s a cut 'n' past typo and he was in a rush to get it out...

HINT: Mods have been quick to disqualify shmups in this thread already...

[Zach Keene]

Arena shooters are allowed now? Who decided that?

At least two admins, and a handful of mods, shortly after last year's poll.

I was neutral on the issue at the time, but I'm starting to agree that it's more trouble than it's worth. (Is it really so far from Smash TV to Bangaio to Contra?)

But since we're stuck with them for now, Mercs/Commando/Ikari would seem to fit. (Edit: fixed the rules post.)

[Turrican]

Arena shooters are allowed now? Who decided that?

At least two admins, and a handful of mods, shortly after last year's poll.

I was neutral on the issue at the time, but I'm starting to agree that it's more trouble than it's worth. (Is it really so far from Smash TV to Bangaio to Contra?)

But since we're stuck with them for now, Mercs/Commando/Ikari would seem to fit. (Edit: fixed the rules post.)

Alien Breed and Chaos Engine are on topic and eligible now, right?

Thanks for making this clear.

Edit: I respect mods decision but since I've been called a hypocrite I just want to point out that arena shooters inclusion is an entirely different matter than tube's inclusion. I consider this to be opening the gates for borderliners.

[j^aws]

...(Is it really so far from Smash TV to Bangaio to Contra?)..

Can I ask if you read/ understood the discussion in this thread? I'd like a mods/ admins opinion on this. It eliminates Metal Slug / Contras...

The basic premise is to define shmups with enough 'detail' so that you can apply/ adjust any ruleset as appropriate...

...Edit: I respect mods decision but since I've been called a hypocrite I just want to point out that arena shooters inclusion is an entirely different matter than tube's inclusion. I consider this to be opening the gates for borderliners.

I'm like 50 steps ahead of you. I've been trying to address boundary conditions throughout the thread. Even before my 'mind dump' post, I posted a discussion point, which got ignored until much later (after trolls had a say).

My General Theory's *purpose* was to make *tube*, *arena*, *isomentric* et al... NOT an "entirely different matter", as you say...

[professor ganson]

jaws, are you looking to get banned? Zach is a mod, and he just told you all you need to know. If you want to continue discussing this matter of definition or whatever, I'd appreciate it if you could start a different thread. Enough of this thread has been taken up with your criticisms and complaints. I look forward to discussion of the top 25 shmups every year, and I'd like to see it continue without seeing any more posts from you asking others whether others have studied your previous posts. The answer is obvious.

[j^aws]

jaws, are you looking to get banned? Zach is a mod, and he just told you all you need to know.

Nope. And he hasn't. Also look at his post and look up the symbol "question mark"... it looks like this...-> "?"

]
If you want to continue discussing this matter of definition or whatever, I'd appreciate it if you could start a different thread. Enough of this thread has been taken up with your criticisms and complaints. I look forward to discussion of the top 25 shmups every year, and I'd like to see it continue without seeing any more posts from you asking others whether others have studied your previous posts. The answer is obvious.

I don't mind where the discussion takes place, as long as it's intelligent and the environment is troll free. I'll let the mods decide this. Thanks for your input.

And, btw, this thread was DEAD, until Senko was brought up by someone other than myself.

[Turrican]

Hello, Recap.


Nah... Poor ol' Recap doesn't deserve this... Just kiddin'

But I'm seriously beginning to think that you are either a joke account or registered in the wrong forum.

[Ceph]

jaws, are you looking to get banned? Zach is a mod, and he just told you all you need to know. If you want to continue discussing this matter of definition or whatever, I'd appreciate it if you could start a different thread. Enough of this thread has been taken up with your criticisms and complaints. I look forward to discussion of the top 25 shmups every year, and I'd like to see it continue without seeing any more posts from you asking others whether others have studied your previous posts. The answer is obvious.

Thanks Professor Yeah, this cluttering up is the reason I haven't posted here. Time to get this thread back on track. Let's discuss the top 25 shmups.

And jaws, who do you think you are? Why should reading your posts be mandatory and the conclusions you reach be universally valid? [rethorical question, please do not reply]

[j^aws]

...
And jaws, who do you think you are? Why should reading your posts be mandatory and the conclusions you reach be universally valid? [rethorical question, please do not reply]

This is a discussion forum. Everyone is my PEER. Who do you think you are?

Also DJ Incompetent wanted a "verdict" on what I posted,

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 233#219233

...and Turrican took that responsibility.

[Ceph]

So, is Under Defeat getting any votes? It's been a year, the verdict should be in by now.

And although it's pretty new, what about Trigger Heart Exelica?

[j^aws]

...
But I'm seriously beginning to think that you are either a joke account or registered in the wrong forum.

- Beyond3D, alias Jaws.
- NeoGaf, j^aws.
- ArsTechnica, j^aws.

...and a few more. Feel free to check my post histories...

Also, this is the 'classic' sign of no counter-arguments, when you start questioning the poster, rather than the posts...

[professor ganson]

I can see your point that enough time has passed-- one should be able to say whether Under Defeat deserves a spot-- but I still feel I need some time to think about whether it has that classic status. Definitely my favorite recent DC release, though I still need to play Trigger Heart.

My schedule is finally starting to free up a bit, and I'm thinking I really need to pick a shmup to dedicate myself to. I think something different would be nice; not just my usual Psikyo. Maybe Homura.

[Turrican]

Also, this is the 'classic' sign of no counter-arguments, when you start questioning the poster, rather than the posts...

What concerns me is that you 'say' you've followed the discussion
[...]
You've been hinting to me that you lacked reading comprehension...
[...]
I'm like 50 steps ahead of you.
[...]
Can I ask if you read/ understood the discussion in this thread?

Exactly. I see you are plenty of "arguments".

My General Theory's *purpose* was to make *tube*, *arena*, *isomentric* et al... NOT an "entirely different matter", as you say...

The purpose of your "General Theory" goes against the nature of shmups as a subgenre - this is not a contest to make the broader definition. There's "shooting games" and "shooters" for what you aim at.

It eliminates Metal Slug / Contras...

How exactly? Without quoting or redirect me to pages before, please. The Quartet line you mention is in question form...

[j^aws]

My General Theory's *purpose* was to make *tube*, *arena*, *isomentric* et al... NOT an "entirely different matter", as you say...

The purpose of your "General Theory" goes against the nature of shmups as a subgenre - this is not a contest to make the broader definition. There's "shooting games" and "shooters" for what you aim at.

Are you familiar with Science? For the record, I hold a Masters in Engineering from a world class university.

Are you familiar with the Periodic Table in Chemistry?

It eliminates Metal Slug / Contras...

How exactly? Without quoting or redirect me to pages before, please. The Quartet line you mention is in question form...

Imagine just an XY plane, and at any point in time your character can reach any point on that XY plane, and tell me if you have,

A) ...a jetpac in Quartet, everything is satisfied? Yes/ NO

B) ....no jetpac in Quartet, everything is satisfied? Yes/ NO

C)...if Metal Slug is satisfied? Yes/ NO

[Turrican]

Anyway I've solved far more complex problems than this.
[...]
Are you familiar with Science? For the record, I hold a Masters in Engineering from a world class university.
[...]
Are you familiar with the Periodic Table in Chemistry?

Are you familiar with humility?

Imagine just an XY plane, and at any point in time your character can reach any point on that XY plane, and tell me if you have,

A) ...a jetpac in Quartet, everything is satisfied? Yes/ NO

B) ....no jetpac in Quartet, everything is satisfied? Yes/ NO

C)...if Metal Slug is satisfied? Yes/ NO

So Metal Slug is not a shmup because the avatar cannot reach any point in that XY plane, in your opinion? Except it's a flawed answer... Metal Slug isn't a shmup for a bunch of other factors, and you before conceded that due to obstacles you can't access to the whole plane in shmups as well... It's all to evident that you're definition criteria isn't refined enough, in this case I might argue it's wrong (since being able to reach any point on a plane is not what defines a shmup).

Imho, what you fail to realize is (and Rob wrote this before) that geometrical definitions do makea fine boundary but cannot be the only defining criteria.
Since 99% of the whole videogames involve shooting at something, and since the vast majority of the up-to-'90s titles are set into an XY two-dimensional plane, by your logic Gauntlet would be a shmup. Link with a powered up sword / bow and arrows would be a shmup.