NESRGB board available now

[Josh128]

3. Composite out seems to look better than I remember, perhaps because it is now being produced by the NESRGB.
4. Composite out gives gray picture when palette switch is not in off position.

Any improvement in the video quality from your NES's original composite video jack is imaginary . As you mentioned, it only works when the NESRGB's switch is set to OFF. In this mode, the NESRGB isn't doing anything to the image. It's all just the PPU.

There is actually another composite output from the NESRGB in which there is definitely a difference. It's the solder pad labeled 'V'. That pad outputs composite video that has been encoded from the RGB image. It is affected by the palette switch in exactly the same way as the s-video and RGB outputs.

Makes sense. I dont normally play the NES on that telly, perhaps the set has a better comb filter than the old ones I used to play it on, or maybe I remember it being worse than it really was.

[XianXi]

3. Composite out seems to look better than I remember, perhaps because it is now being produced by the NESRGB.
4. Composite out gives gray picture when palette switch is not in off position.

Any improvement in the video quality from your NES's original composite video jack is imaginary . As you mentioned, it only works when the NESRGB's switch is set to OFF. In this mode, the NESRGB isn't doing anything to the image. It's all just the PPU.

There is actually another composite output from the NESRGB in which there is definitely a difference. It's the solder pad labeled 'V'. That pad outputs composite video that has been encoded from the RGB image. It is affected by the palette switch in exactly the same way as the s-video and RGB outputs.

Makes sense. I dont normally play the NES on that telly, perhaps the set has a better comb filter than the old ones I used to play it on, or maybe I remember it being worse than it really was.

Don't worry, I'm in the same boat. I thought it looked better as well but I think it's because I never used the composite, I used the RF when I actually played the NES as a kid.

[leonk]

I have no problem with constructive criticism, but essentially implying that Im incompetent because it took me 3 to 4 hours to remove the PPU, while bragging that he takes about 2 minutes is not constructive criticism, its a jab, and I took it as one.

Please go back and read my first post to you and explain to me where it is that I took a jab at you. If you read it as such, I do apologize.

He completely ignored my writeup, voltage regulator mod, and zeroed in on the soldering and wiring.

That's not true. I felt that it was an overkill, and completely unnecessary, and hence didn't comment on it. Jason multiple times on YouTube has proven that the extra regulator or extra heat sinks (as you did) are not needed. With all my installs, I find even the original 1.0A regular is more than sufficient and runs cool enough to touch. If your modification gives you peace of mind, so be it.

Its all good, Im willing to accept that his intentions were good and move on with it. All this aside, I'm way more interested in the functionality of the NESRGB kit and thats what I want to discuss.

Fair enough.

I do have a question about your install. Is there a reason why you decided to use V for RGB sync rather than CS#? As Tim documents on his web site: V is composite video .. CS# is the correct TTL Composite Sync for RGB video. You don't seem to have an issue with using V for sync at this time, but you might run into issues in the future if you decide to change your setup.

[markfrizb]

What is the PPUV used for?

[Vigormortis]

What is the PPUV used for?

PPUV is the composite video output from the PPU, properly amplified to connect to a TV. It is redundant on the front loader NES and the AV Famicom, which already have a composite video output. However, it is useful if you want to output the original PPU composite video from a NES Top Loader or AV Famicom, which lack composite video output and relied only on RF.

[markfrizb]

What is the PPUV used for?

PPUV is the composite video output from the PPU, properly amplified to connect to a TV. It is redundant on the front loader NES and the AV Famicom, which already have a composite video output. However, it is useful if you want to output the original PPU composite video from a NES Top Loader or AV Famicom, which lack composite video output and relied only on RF.

So what is the difference between the PPUV and V? Which is the preferred or better video to use as composite video?

[Vigormortis]

So what is the difference between the PPUV and V? Which is the preferred or better video to use as composite video?

PPUV is the original video output from the PPU. It only works properly when the NESRGB is turned off. You would use it if you want to keep the option of having your NES output its 100% original composite signal.

V is composite video encoded from RGB. It works when the NESRGB is turned on and can display the different palette options on the NESRGB. It looks cleaner than the PPU's composite video output (especially in jailbar prone systems), but sort of looks softer. The dot crawl pattern is also different. In a system without a palette switch, this would be the only choice for composite video.

[markfrizb]

Thanks!

[Josh128]

I have no problem with constructive criticism, but essentially implying that Im incompetent because it took me 3 to 4 hours to remove the PPU, while bragging that he takes about 2 minutes is not constructive criticism, its a jab, and I took it as one.

Please go back and read my first post to you and explain to me where it is that I took a jab at you. If you read it as such, I do apologize.

He completely ignored my writeup, voltage regulator mod, and zeroed in on the soldering and wiring.

That's not true. I felt that it was an overkill, and completely unnecessary, and hence didn't comment on it. Jason multiple times on YouTube has proven that the extra regulator or extra heat sinks (as you did) are not needed. With all my installs, I find even the original 1.0A regular is more than sufficient and runs cool enough to touch. If your modification gives you peace of mind, so be it.

Its all good, Im willing to accept that his intentions were good and move on with it. All this aside, I'm way more interested in the functionality of the NESRGB kit and thats what I want to discuss.

Fair enough.

I do have a question about your install. Is there a reason why you decided to use V for RGB sync rather than CS#? As Tim documents on his web site: V is composite video .. CS# is the correct TTL Composite Sync for RGB video. You don't seem to have an issue with using V for sync at this time, but you might run into issues in the future if you decide to change your setup.

Tim Worthington does not agree that extra heat sink is unnecessary when using the stock v. reg. I had emailed him a few days back asking about it since I didnt receive one. He replied with the below this morning:

The voltage regulator isn't essential. If you just add some more mass to
the heat sink you should be fine. If you can touch the heat sink without
getting a burn it's cool enough.

regards
tim

Perhaps its overkill, but he experienced overheating issues with the stock reg and heatsink so Im glad I did it.


Sharp eye on the composite video sync. The reason I went with sync on composite video is that Im not so sure the RGB to component converter Im using works properly with C-Sync or Sync on Luma for that matter. Ive previously modded my N64 with the RGB amplifier chip and used composite video for sync. It looked good on my plasma, no crosshatch at all. That said, I read about how using C-sync or sync on luma from svideo improves the look on some LCD sets, so I decided to try it. Instead of cracking my N64 back open though,I popped open the N64 side connector on the Scart cable I had and desoldered the composite video (which my unit was syncing on/ working fine with) and moved the wire to the C sync pin. I got an image, looked exactly the same as using the composite video sync, only every so often the screen would roll and flash, especially on brighter scenes. Popped the plug open again and moved the wire to Luma, same results. The set (or maybe the YUV converter) was not properly syncing.

So I have to use composite video sync for my N64 with my little converter. I didnt want to take a chance on the NESRGB install and have to pop the NES back open again if my converter wasnt happy with C-Sync. That said, if someone else using the RGB to Component converter (csy-2100 or equiv knockoff) can confirm C-Sync works or somehow looks any better (hard to imagine!) I might open back up and move the sync wire to it. Perhaps this would be useful If I switch converter types or TVs and they dont like sync on composite video. I need to make sure it works with my current setup though.

[Josh128]

Well, I have the answer to my own question regarding composite sync (CS#) compatibility with the CSY-2100. It does work, and it provides a superior picture than using composite video sync (V)-- at least it does when outputting to a PNF514500.

Last night I was playing some NES with my son and daughter and I noticed some very light, very small, diagonal lines on the picture, really noticable only on light solid colors, like the blue sky in SMB 1. It was there in the pictures I posted, but not visible in the picture. I guess its a form of "jailbars". It looked exactly like the issue I was having using a cheap Philips mechanical component switch in the past with my Wii outputting 480p. The only way I was able to cure the Wii problem was to change out the switch with a quality active switching one with internal signal amplification. As I said before, most people probably wouldnt even notice them, but once I noticed it, it became very distracting, its all I would look at!

So, I popped the NES open, heated up the iron, and moved the sync wire from V to CS#, closed it up, and fired it up. Jailbars/diagonal lines are completely gone, I noticed the difference immediately. The picture looks so good I couldnt imagine spending any more $$$ on a higher end converter. It may be the best picture of any RGB enabled system I have yet (SNES Mini, Genesis 1, and DC are all close, but man the NESRGB is perfect!).

I guess the sync choice affects more than just compatibility after all, despite what Tim lists in his documentation.

[Adderall]

is mega man 3 a problem game?

I'm seeing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACGaOUJMhnY

as well as a lot of other artifacts and weirdness. could it be the everdrive?

[Vigormortis]

The game in that video is Mega Man 3, and that problem is inherent to the game. You can even see it in emulators and unmodified machines.

[trap15]

It's just a lazily programmed raster effect. Happens everywhere.

[evil_ash_xero]

I hadn't played on the original hardware in eons. Since getting a top loader modded with NESRGB, it's interesting to see all the weird glitches, flickers, and odd junk going on in NES games.

I thought something was VERY wrong, when I was playing Little Nemo. All the junk on the right side of the screen I was used to, even in emulation. But all the flickering and weird shaking pillars in the toy train stage was nuts.

I've noticed that weird raster effect in a lot of games as well. I thought maybe there was something wrong too.

[Adderall]

I hadn't played on the original hardware in eons. Since getting a top loader modded with NESRGB, it's interesting to see all the weird glitches, flickers, and odd junk going on in NES games.

I thought something was VERY wrong, when I was playing Little Nemo. All the junk on the right side of the screen I was used to, even in emulation. But all the flickering and weird shaking pillars in the toy train stage was nuts.

I've noticed that weird raster effect in a lot of games as well. I thought maybe there was something wrong too.

cool! thanks... glad it wasn't just me.

[CkRtech]

Last night I was playing some NES with my son and daughter and I noticed some very light, very small, diagonal lines on the picture, really noticable only on light solid colors, like the blue sky in SMB 1. It was there in the pictures I posted, but not visible in the picture.

Huh. I have some of those in my picture, but I just attributed it to unshielded cabling outside the NES (which I still need to improve upon anyway). Were these diagonal lines of yours rolling or stuck in place?

[Vigormortis]

The diagonal lines come from naughty SCART cables that don't shield the audio and video signals from each other. The interference manifests as buzzing in the audio which varies with the brightness of the image and as diagonal lines in the video. I found the most effective solution was running a separate shielded cable for audio between the SCART and SNES connectors. Even the crappiest console SCART cables with totally unshielded video wires look and sound perfect when I do this.

[Skips]

The diagonal lines come from naughty SCART cables that don't shield the audio and video signals from each other. The interference manifests as buzzing in the audio which varies with the brightness of the image and as diagonal lines in the video. I found the most effective solution was running a separate shielded cable for audio between the SCART and SNES connectors. Even the crappiest console SCART cables with totally unshielded video wires look and sound perfect when I do this.

Shielding is only part of the problem that causes the diagonal pattern when using RGB. The main problem is composite video being used as sync. I have tested this with the NES, SNES, and N64 with properly shielded cables. If you use composite video as sync you may see them (visibility varies greatly across different monitors and displays and the SNES being the worst out of the three consoles). Using a clean sync signal (not composite video) clears this problem up entirely assuming your cable is properly made.

[Josh128]

Last night I was playing some NES with my son and daughter and I noticed some very light, very small, diagonal lines on the picture, really noticable only on light solid colors, like the blue sky in SMB 1. It was there in the pictures I posted, but not visible in the picture.

Huh. I have some of those in my picture, but I just attributed it to unshielded cabling outside the NES (which I still need to improve upon anyway). Were these diagonal lines of yours rolling or stuck in place?

The ones I had on the NESRGB were definitely sync related, ie "jailbars"-- which are not always large, vertical bands/lines. These were stationary, diagonal lines, slanting up from left to right, across the entire image. They look like something you might expect from interference/crosstalk,but dont be fooled. They were noticable on light or bright colors, but you couldnt see them at all in darker scenes. Its something that you dont see at first, but once you do, theres no going back.

I first tried fiddling with the Scart cable-- unplugged the audio from the NES to rule out A/V crosstalk, no change. Fiddled with the CSY-2100 and the output component cable, and bypassed my amplified component switch, no change. Tried different power outlets, etc, no change. Opened the NES, pulled the mainboard, desoldered from V and moved to the CS#. Put everything back together exactly as it was and fired it up. The difference was IMMEDIATELY noticable on the SMB/Duck Hunt title screen. The faint lines were COMPLETELY gone. Tried several other games to make sure, and sure enough they were gone.

I originally had a similar problem with the Wii using a cheap mechanical component switch. The lines were essentially identical, but they moved/scrolled across the screen, but always stayed parallel and equal in distance to each other. First went through all the usual suspects- power, audio, component cables, etc.-- then I found that when I bypass the component switch completely they completely disappeared. I was able to replicate the problem over and over by using the switch-- even with absolutely everything else pulled off of the switch, including the Wii audio, they were there. I researched component switches and heard good things about the Audio Authority one. Found a deal on Ebay and bought one. It contains active switching circuitry and something like a 1.06 dB gain on the video signal. Worked like a charm, never saw the lines again.

I believe the Wii problem was due to sync signal attenuation/loss through the old switch. If you see these lines on your setup, its probably a 95% chance its due to either sync signal degradation or your equipment not dealing with composite video sync well. In a perfect world, composite vid sync should be as good as pure (C) Sync, but the reality is that some of the other info carried in the comp. video signal is not stripped out properly by the accepting display or converter, and thus you get these artifacts.

Because the difference was so easily noticable on my NES, I would recommend you check yours to see if sync is soldered to CS#. If it is, you might try moving it to Y (SVideo Luma), and see if that helps. Some setups actually do not like pure sync. If you are going through any SCART or Component switch, bypass it and go directly to the converter and the set. (Obviously try this first )

Now, Im still a bit at a loss to explain why my setup did not like CSync or Sync on Luma from my N64. Maybe the CSync from the N64 needs amplication like its RGB signals do, but S Video works perfect so I would think the Luma should have been fine. I believe the CSync from the SNES Mini is on the same pin as the N64 (NTSC versions), so I might try to mod the cable and try it on both the Mini and the N64 to see if either works. That said, I dont really think either need it-- I have no crosshatch or jailbars on either system-- in fact, someone above mentioned the SNES had poor sync on composite video-- that may hold true for the SNES 1, which has an ugly/muddy RGB signal anyways, but I can attest that a modded SNES 2 / Mini has an IMMACULATE RGB signal using composite video as sync , as I have both and have compared them.

Let us know what you find. Below is a picture of what my NESRGB jailbars looked like (almost exactly). Look on the green "D" on the right.

[CkRtech]

Really appreciate the feedback, guys. I am waiting delivery of what I hope to be a higher quality mini din 8 cable for the NES, and my plans were to go ahead and try out the new ON-ON-ON switch I picked up for the palette. I have the slide switch hooked up right now, but I haven't drilled holes yet.

I have two issues with the NES video. I figured both were related to terrible quality cabling to the Framemeister. One is diagonal lines that can be seen easily on solid colors (Megaman 2 stage select for instance). The second is what appears to look like...err...kinda like unraveled yarn horizontal lines of what I assume to be interference. Maybe two or three lines max at various locations down the display.

I figured each issue was just from the thin-as-hair test hookup md8 cables I am using, and both would be gone once the new cables arrive (provided they are good enough).

Perhaps I will switch over to CS# when I swap out the palette switch tonight.

[Josh128]

Really appreciate the feedback, guys. I am waiting delivery of what I hope to be a higher quality mini din 8 cable for the NES, and my plans were to go ahead and try out the new ON-ON-ON switch I picked up for the palette. I have the slide switch hooked up right now, but I haven't drilled holes yet.

I have two issues with the NES video. I figured both were related to terrible quality cabling to the Framemeister. One is diagonal lines that can be seen easily on solid colors (Megaman 2 stage select for instance). The second is what appears to look like...err...kinda like unraveled yarn horizontal lines of what I assume to be interference. Maybe two or three lines max at various locations down the display.

I figured each issue was just from the thin-as-hair test hookup md8 cables I am using, and both would be gone once the new cables arrive (provided they are good enough).

Perhaps I will switch over to CS# when I swap out the palette switch tonight.

So you arent using CS#? I'm 99% sure this is your entire problem. See "D" at the right of the picture I posted above (sorry for the size). If you will already have the unit open, by all means switch over to CS# before you waste anytime adding larger/different wire. Good luck!

[Skips]

in fact, someone above mentioned the SNES had poor sync on composite video-- that may hold true for the SNES 1, which has an ugly/muddy RGB signal anyways, but I can attest that a modded SNES 2 / Mini has an IMMACULATE RGB signal using composite video as sync , as I have both and have compared them.[/url]

The 1-Chip and mini has the same problem as well (I tested this problem on a mini and 1-Chip not the original SNES) it is just not nearly as bad. Like I said, the visibility of it will change based on your setup/monitor. Just because your setup does not show it does not mean its not there. Going through the CSY-2100 (or any of its clones) or XRGB you could not see it however if you connect it to a more sensitive monitor such as a BVM-201FU or PVM-20L5 (via RGB) it becomes much more visible. I just fixed this for a client last night on his RGB modded mini and an RGB modded N64, switching it off composite video cleared it right up.

[CkRtech]

Mind blown.

I recently restored a 1CHIP-02 (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49327). I believe I am currently using a 1CHIP-01 in my setup. I want to say that I tweaked my RGB cable a bit at the SNES end and changed up which sync I was using, but I can't remember (it was in 2012).

I guess I always figured that issues with sync from composite video vs. composite sync (TTL) would be a bit more pronounced on the display OR the display just wouldn't work at all. I guess there is a bit more magic to it than I originally thought.

[Vigormortis]

The diagonal lines come from naughty SCART cables that don't shield the audio and video signals from each other. The interference manifests as buzzing in the audio which varies with the brightness of the image and as diagonal lines in the video. I found the most effective solution was running a separate shielded cable for audio between the SCART and SNES connectors. Even the crappiest console SCART cables with totally unshielded video wires look and sound perfect when I do this.

Shielding is only part of the problem that causes the diagonal pattern when using RGB. The main problem is composite video being used as sync. I have tested this with the NES, SNES, and N64 with properly shielded cables. If you use composite video as sync you may see them (visibility varies greatly across different monitors and displays and the SNES being the worst out of the three consoles). Using a clean sync signal (not composite video) clears this problem up entirely assuming your cable is properly made.

Ahh you're right. When I looked more closely on my PVM, the diagonal bars were indeed still there using my cable with composite video as sync. When I added the separate audio cable, it reduced the bars so much that I didn't notice them until I read your post and looked really closely. I tried switching to pure sync and they disappeared completely .

[keropi]

Luckily it appears the cable I use is a good one and I hear no buzzing.
But the volume output of the Famicom AV is so high!!! On my Trinitron 14" tv I need to have the volume on 2 out of 64 in the night and it's still loud... eventually after you pass 10-15 you start hearing a buzz but you can't really stand such high volume... anyone else noticed that? I am using the original famicom audio, maybe I can add a resistor on the audio-out line? Any recommendations?
That's a problem I had with the original famicom as well, I never found a good resistor value to lower down the volume

[ccovell]

The 1-Chip and mini has the same problem as well (I tested this problem on a mini and 1-Chip not the original SNES) it is just not nearly as bad. Like I said, the visibility of it will change based on your setup/monitor. Just because your setup does not show it does not mean its not there. Going through the CSY-2100 (or any of its clones) or XRGB you could not see it however if you connect it to a more sensitive monitor such as a BVM-201FU or PVM-20L5 (via RGB) it becomes much more visible. I just fixed this for a client last night on his RGB modded mini and an RGB modded N64, switching it off composite video cleared it right up.

Just 2 weeks ago I got sick of the "slight" diagonal bars on my SFC Jr. (Mini) through RGB, and explored around the bottom of the SFC PCB to see if I could eliminate these bars. Well, there are about 3 unused SMD pads for resistors, and a few unused pads for capacitors near the underside of the PPU / video encoder. Bridging one of those capacitor pads cleared up the problem completely; I recommend trying it.

[Skips]

The 1-Chip and mini has the same problem as well (I tested this problem on a mini and 1-Chip not the original SNES) it is just not nearly as bad. Like I said, the visibility of it will change based on your setup/monitor. Just because your setup does not show it does not mean its not there. Going through the CSY-2100 (or any of its clones) or XRGB you could not see it however if you connect it to a more sensitive monitor such as a BVM-201FU or PVM-20L5 (via RGB) it becomes much more visible. I just fixed this for a client last night on his RGB modded mini and an RGB modded N64, switching it off composite video cleared it right up.

Just 2 weeks ago I got sick of the "slight" diagonal bars on my SFC Jr. (Mini) through RGB, and explored around the bottom of the SFC PCB to see if I could eliminate these bars. Well, there are about 3 unused SMD pads for resistors, and a few unused pads for capacitors near the underside of the PPU / video encoder. Bridging one of those capacitor pads cleared up the problem completely; I recommend trying it.

I would honestly rather just use raw sync over composite video for sync, my devices prefer raw sync anyway. I will keep that in mind though for when people ask me about this problem.

Also, if you are not using the included power regulator try applying a thermal compound (like arctic silver) to the back of your power regulator instead of bolting on more metal. I do this with all the new RGB mods I do and it runs nice and cool when using arctic silver. Make sure you apply a VERY thin and perfectly even layer though. If you make the layer of thermal compound too thick it will do the opposite of what it is intended for. The only model this has not worked on so far is the original Famicom, it will still get hot with the thermal compound.

[darcagn]

I also had the diagonal lines issue with my NESRGB, but I just ignored it because it was so slight it didn't bother me. Like the others above said, switching the sync to the CS# pad completely eliminated the diagonal lines effect.

I originally wired V for sync because that's what the NESRGB documentation shows, but unless you have a compatibility issue with using composite sync, I would highly recommend using CS# (composite sync) instead of V (composite video) for your wiring.

I would honestly rather just use raw sync over composite sync, my devices prefer raw sync anyway.

You're confused, composite sync is raw sync.

composite (adj.) - made up of various parts or elements

composite video = a signal made up of chroma, luma, h-sync, and v-sync in one wire
composite sync = a signal made up of h-sync and v-sync in one wire (also referred to as "raw sync" because the chroma and luma are not in the signal)

[Skips]

I also had the diagonal lines issue with my NESRGB, but I just ignored it because it was so slight it didn't bother me. Like the others above said, switching the sync to the CS# pad completely eliminated the diagonal lines effect.

I originally wired V for sync because that's what the NESRGB documentation shows, but unless you have a compatibility issue with using composite sync, I would highly recommend using CS# (composite sync) instead of V (composite video) for your wiring.

I would honestly rather just use raw sync over composite sync, my devices prefer raw sync anyway.

You're confused, composite sync is raw sync.

composite (adj.) - made up of various parts or elements

composite video = a signal made up of chroma, luma, h-sync, and v-sync in one wire
composite sync = a signal made up of h-sync and v-sync in one wire (also referred to as "raw sync" because the chroma and luma are not in the signal)

No I am not confused. I know what raw sync is. That was a brain fart. I meant Composite video as sync. Thanks for catching it though. I should have read it twice before posting it, fixed.

[CkRtech]

Well, I switched over to CS#. I thought perhaps it had taken care of the diagonal lines, but it appears that they are still there. Perhaps they aren't as pronounced, though. Either way, I would prefer composite sync over composite video.

As for the "whirly" lines that look like unraveled yarn, I expect those to go away once I replace the cable. I had pretty much the exact same issue with unshielded SNES NTSC SCART cables before I got a higher quality cable from a different seller. Of course, who knows if the cables I ordered are good enough, but we will see.