Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Shoryukev]

Just watched the last half of your Batman 1 life clear BIL, WOW! Well done, very impressive! Makes me want to play the game right now (too bad I'm at work lol)

[soprano1]

Oh, you can watch Diggin' in the Carts in a decent video player? Awesome, thanks for the link, BIL.

[BIL]

Yeah, I was bracing myself to dig (bahaha!) up the old link, but first google result was a nice YT vid. Pleasant surprise! :O

[Squire Grooktook]

Nice video BIL.

I've owned Nes Batman for a while but have never really tried to go for a 1cc. Booted it up with that intention once or twice, but the stage 3 boss always seemed like a wall.

Had no idea it was just a damage race lol. Will have to give it another shot now.

[BIL]

I've noticed speedrunners will do some ambitious stuff involving the Dirk and fists to kill him after taking as few as two/three hits, but for a simple three/four kill, you just need to keep him in the boomerangs' sweet spot and take care to not launch them after he's leapt away. I like to use the sound effects as a guide on both him and Firebug - the boomerangs make a nice fat, fuzzy sound when they're sawing into a target at optimum range.

Typically I find it annoying when an attack can't connect at point-blank (one of Dynamite Batman's many issues), but I really like the boomerangs' proximity dynamic. They're literally useless at pointblank and not much better nearby (you want the fists there), but they rack up enormous damage to anything caught in their return point. A well-placed boomerang will instakill a flamethrower; you need two gunshots or Dirks for the same job, at four and six times the ammo respectively. Neat finesse mechanic - feels like a more nuanced take on traditional CV's cross rebound.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Is anyone here familiar with Star Wars on the NES? I've almost beaten it several times, but I always fail towards the end. A couple times I've accidentally gone through the detention block without finding Leia....then a level or two later the game won't let you proceed and you have to reset cuz you're stuck

I don't remember that glitch/issue being in the Game Gear version I played as a kid, but it could have been there. I'm not sure how I feel about the overhead speeder section in the beginning. I'm so used to it not being there that having to find R2 and Obi-Wan (and the Falcon icons to help make it through the asteroid field later) is a bit of a chore. Overall I still rather enjoy the game, but there are times where I wonder if the GG port is slightly easier. I'm thinking perhaps there were some health/damage tweaks that make the NES version a bit harder. Both are fantastic games, and I'm sure anyone who likes sidescrolling action games would enjoy them (with the exception of the detention block, it's a bit of an annoying maze).

I was going to recommend this to people in the ode to cheap games thread, but I see the price has risen from $5-10 to $20-30 in the last decade....dang!

I have it for the Master System and that version is more or less a straight port of the NES version, with a few extra graphical bells and whistles (mainly digitised portraits and end sequence). I don't know if it's in the NES version but you need to do a bunch of things to 100% the game and get the cutscene ending. You can not rescue Princess Leia and finish the game but you get a shitty XX% complete screen instead. The only thing that makes the game unwinnable far as I could tell is not getting the lightsaber (rescue R2 and see Obi-Wan) because the trash compactor monster is impossible without it. I tried to get through on as little as possible but that thing would not die to blaster fire!

What gets you late in the game? The detention maze is annoying and the Death Star exit bit with all the chutes into spikes is pretty evil but easily memorised.

I quite like the speed overworld. I looked up the Game Gear version and it replaces it with boring looking "walk right" mini-stages. The exclusive Leia stage at the beginning seems a bit out of place too, more like the middle of the game than the other early levels.

[Shoryukev]

I have it for the Master System and that version is more or less a straight port of the NES version, with a few extra graphical bells and whistles (mainly digitised portraits and end sequence). I don't know if it's in the NES version but you need to do a bunch of things to 100% the game and get the cutscene ending. You can not rescue Princess Leia and finish the game but you get a shitty XX% complete screen instead. The only thing that makes the game unwinnable far as I could tell is not getting the lightsaber (rescue R2 and see Obi-Wan) because the trash compactor monster is impossible without it. I tried to get through on as little as possible but that thing would not die to blaster fire!

What gets you late in the game? The detention maze is annoying and the Death Star exit bit with all the chutes into spikes is pretty evil but easily memorised.

I quite like the speed overworld. I looked up the Game Gear version and it replaces it with boring looking "walk right" mini-stages. The exclusive Leia stage at the beginning seems a bit out of place too, more like the middle of the game than the other early levels.

I like the way the Game Gear and Master System ports look. The NES color limit on sprites really holds it back in this game, particularly when you're Luke and holding a lightsaber and it isn't blue. From what I can tell they are otherwise almost identical, though the damage you take on the NES version seems to hurt more than I remember it being with the GG port (though it could just be that I haven't played it in years and am not as good at it as I was LOL)

I ran into a couple self-inflicted issues that kept me from beating it. I'm used to the Game Gear version, so the overworld threw me off. I forgot to search for the falcon shield powerups since the GG version lays the levels out for you and you don't have to explore around to find the caves. Towards the end there are some treacherous spike placements that got me a few times....that and I forgot to save Leia once and that frustrated me LOL.

I agree the Game Gear intro stage is odd. It doesn't really add anything interesting, and definitely isn't as hard as the rest of the game so it's a little misleading.

I need to sit down and play the game again and beat the NES version when I get time. I have a 3 year old daughter, so sitting down and playing uninterrupted takes some delicate planning sometimes. Eventually I want to get the SMS version, but it's a little pricey so it isn't on the top of my list. The game isn't super hard or anything, I just haven't really had the time to master it again.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I assume the GG version has been difficulty adjusted for the smaller field of view, but the SMS version has two difficulty settings - the hardest of which is quite challenging, not least of it is that you take fall damage (except when thrown from chutes).

Do either of the versions require you to find all the extra lives to unlock the ending scene like the SMS version does? I wonder how much of my time with the game was spent trying invisible walls and odd jumps just to find the damn things?!

Again not sure about the NES but the manual for the SMS version has an overworld map which helps a lot! If you are looking for it, the blue box Kixx re-release is much more expensive than the standard "white grid" version.

[Shoryukev]

I assume the GG version has been difficulty adjusted for the smaller field of view, but the SMS version has two difficulty settings - the hardest of which is quite challenging, not least of it is that you take fall damage (except when thrown from chutes).

Do either of the versions require you to find all the extra lives to unlock the ending scene like the SMS version does? I wonder how much of my time with the game was spent trying invisible walls and odd jumps just to find the damn things?!

Again not sure about the NES but the manual for the SMS version has an overworld map which helps a lot! If you are looking for it, the blue box Kixx re-release is much more expensive than the standard "white grid" version.

I agree, I think the damage might be scaled differently in the GG version to try and offset the field of view being so small (there are a few spots where you blindly walk into some heavy fire or have to make leaps of faith). The GG version having several difficulty settings but the NES version has none, I would assume it defaults to the hardest one (you take severe fall damage).

I'm not sure about the extra lives thing, I have gotten 100% on the GG version but that was probably 20 years ago. I'll probably have an answer for that on the NES version soon. I don't think the master system version was ever released in the USA (the master system had tons of good titles that never saw release here unfortunately), but I plan on importing it soon.

[electricgrave]

Batman Sunsoft City is a great 1CC run, I think it's very doable for everyone. The Joker is the hardest boss but if you notice the 3 lightning are very readable and it's either boomerang or just fist, fisting FTW.

All the music is fantastic, I love it all. Whenever I play NES on emulation Batman is the game I go by to tune the graphics where I want them, pixel perfect.

My Holy Triad

Ninja Gaiden 3 NES (Never cared for the easier FC version)
Batman Sunsoft City (Never played the FC version, I wonder if there are any differences?)
Castlevania (Same as above)

3 Games I've 1CCed time and again and will never ever get tired of, I have to catch up to BIL and try to do the No Death Runs for each. I think Batman might be the easiest of the 3 in this aspect as farming health isn't against the no death runs...or is it? lol.

Everytime I think of getting an FC I feel silly as I already have my NES, my games which are a few but very select group and an everdrive, I just don't see any reason to jump on an FC except for a Twin with RGB...but hell, I dunno, I can live without...maybe mod a NES or something? Wouldn't mind a Jammafied NES, now that would be ace, I'd make a NES CP in a heart bit for my New Astro, of course start and select buttons would be near by accordingly.

Talking about button layouts for NES, I Built this little guy with spare parts laying around and set them in a Desktop enclosure, cheap and dirty! Well...not so dirty but definitely cheap. 1CC tested with all 3 games, I'm happy with it and recommend it highly for joystick enthusiasts.

Was gonna print a yellow Batman Logo on a black background and call it a day...but I just got lazy, looks good enough to do the job anyway.

I was inspired by this Famicom Ascii stick, it uses Seimitsu parts but mine uses Sanwa. I love the simplicity of it...it just looks great but it's very costly, I made mine with less than half the cost of one of these. I much prefer the button layout I made as you can swap weapons on the fly with your thumb without moving away from B & A.

[BIL]

I think Batman might be the easiest of the 3 in this aspect as farming health isn't against the no death runs...or is it? lol.

Anything goes.

re Joker's lightning, I'm trying to master the more aggressive technique of letting it lock on, then leaping forward and straight through him while punching. The timing's pretty unforgiving, though. I find the safest method is to get close and punch away - his gun is by far the major threat (3HP per shot), and it's useless when you're nearby. Lightning only does 1HP, and it's a snap to back up a little when you see him raise his arm - there's a generous safespot just beyond the barrel of his lowered gun. His only other attack is running into you when cornered, which will be cancelled out by your punches. Leap after him so he can't turn around and shoot you, sock him before you land so he can't bump you, and repeat as needed.

Also, never crouch - it's only a false sense of security (won't evade any of his attacks), and the *BOOM* cinematically slowed-down KO won't be nearly as satisfying if you're punching him in the balls instead of square in the jaw or solar plexus.

Talking about button layouts for NES, I Built this little guy with spare parts laying around and set them in a Desktop enclosure, cheap and dirty! Well...not so dirty but definitely cheap. 1CC tested with all 3 games, I'm happy with it and recommend it highly for joystick enthusiasts.
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd4 ... C03185.jpg
Was gonna print a yellow Batman Logo on a black background and call it a day...but I just got lazy, looks good enough to do the job anyway.

That's a beauty - I really like the clean, minimalist look and functional layout, I'd say you made the right call on both. I'd like to build something similar when I finally get a decent hardware setup going.

[atheistgod1999]

What's wrong with the standard brick controller?

[electricgrave]

Thanks BIL, appreciate the kind words.

Edit: Yes on the "Under the Gun" technic, that works really well, you still have to work the ightning as to be between the firsta nd second lightning, come in after he lightning goes, punch your way in as to not take damage and recoil and then Under the Gun FTW, rinse, repeat.

Toanswer the question above, there's nothing wrong with the square pad, personally I prefer the DOG Bone 'cause I canplay for longer without getting my hands cramped in the corners of the square pad. Now the advantage (nopun intended) I get with the stick is that I have 3 fingers over the buttons at the ready at all times, couldn't say the same about any NES/FC gaming pad, to me that's key specially with games like Batman, G.I. Joe, etc. Also I just prefer playing with a stick if at all possible but I can appreciate a session with gamepads here and there.

[BrianC]

As far as I know, the only difference between the US and JP Batman is that the music for stage 1 and 2 is swapped.

As for CV's differences between the US and JP versions, the US version is pretty much the same, but the FDS version has a save feature and the JP cart version adds an easy mode.

[BIL]

What's wrong with the standard brick controller?

Nothing, generally, but just like the PC-Engine and X68k's stock pads, the lack of a third action button is sub-optimal. Any action game where Start or Select are integral (Batman, GUN-DEC) benefits from more face buttons, whether it's a JAMMA-style row or SFC-style diamond/shoulder buttons.

As for CV's differences between the US and JP versions, the US version is pretty much the same, but the FDS version has a save feature and the JP cart version adds an easy mode.

The JP cart also has one of the tiniest, oddest, yet coolest revisions ever - faster point tally at the end of each stage. ^__^ Other than that, it plays the same as the US PRG1 (bugfixed) cart, AFAIK.

The exclusive Easy mode makes some interesting tweaks - never bothered with it much, but removing the damage knockback and keeping the multiplier while switching subweapons shows more thought than the "lower damage to player, spawn fewer pests" quickie I'd expected.

[Volteccer_Jack]

The thing that bugs me about Batman isn't the bosses -- Mr. Cutioner is easy enough and Firebug is probably my favorite -- it's the whole of stage 5 leading up to Firebug, which basically seems to consist of a long series of annoyingly precise jumps. After four stages of being Vengeance and The Night(c)(tm)(r), the final level feels like I've been dropped into a game of Operation: Bats in the Belfry Edition, where the punishment for touching the sides is an unwinnable boss fight instead of a buzzing noise.

Apart from that, the game's challenges just aren't intricate enough to make it among my absolute favorites. My idea of fun is wall jumping between two moving platforms that are also shooting at me, whereas Batman mostly sticks to the basics. That's also one of the reasons I much prefer the third Castlevania to the first.

[Ed Oscuro]

Random digression: I don't think the X68000 has stock pads. There were expensive optional accessories like the Cyber Stick, and Dempa/Micomsoft had semi-official status (releasing their own branded version of the Cyber Stick) but I haven't ever seen a particular pad coming with the X68000. The XE1 series were multi-system, and their other X68000-specific controllers seem to all be designed to work with particular ports (i.e., the dual d-pad controller for Libble Rabble, and the three button pad for Pac-Land). There wouldn't have been much need, either, with the huge variety of MSX and other "Atari port" controllers from everybody including Hori and Capcom (and Honeybee, and a couple of other dodgy makers of ripoff "XE" controllers).

[BIL]

The thing that bugs me about Batman isn't the bosses -- Mr. Cutioner is easy enough and Firebug is probably my favorite -- it's the whole of stage 5 leading up to Firebug, which basically seems to consist of a long series of annoyingly precise jumps.

It's just the two gearpit jumps that verge on frustration, imo. I can pretty consistently get through with a low forward walljump... though positioning Batman low enough to not whack the overhead gears, but high enough to make it onto the adjacent platform is tricky. Avoiding the overshoot is fairly simple, and undershoot will give you a free retry, so I don't dread those jumps too much. Touchy stuff though.

I notice some advanced players will fall almost into the gears, then use a neutral mid (or high?) jump to leap up and out, but it's seemingly not as forgiving.

(addendum to above: there's roughly six types of walljump - low, mid and high, with or without momentum via dpad)

Walljumping onto the Claws' platforms while punching them out in one stroke is my among my favourite bits, though. Overwhelming their erratic timing with a decisively-launched flying barrage has a rare balance of fine technique to do-or-die aggression.

Random digression: I don't think the X68000 has stock pads.

You're correct, I'm sure. I did consider editing that out, but the annoyance of Akumajou Dracula compelled me.



The fuck was with X68k and XX lacking dedicated subweapon buttons...

[Ed Oscuro]

No idea why XX lacks it, but I suppose the X68000 planners were going by the two-button MSX controller standard (like the XE-1 PRO in that image, which humorously enough has highly configurable autofire).

[Obscura]

Besides, at this point, it's tradition!

Plus, can you imagine being able to use the Holy Water while walking down stairs? Don't you think it's already good enough?

[Skykid]

I want your X68000 BIL.

[Ex_Mosquito]

So much Ninja Spirit talk! Great stuff. At first I couldn't stand the game when I picked it up a few years ago but it's grown on me over the years as one of my favourite ninja side scrollers. I've pretty much got the PCE Ninja Spirit Arcade-Mode down to a semi consistent 1life clear, mostly hinging on a favourable final boss green lightening spawn. Going from PCB/Mame I found the PCE version a lot more claustrophobic due to the lower resolution but after extensive play I think the lower enemy swap rate outweighs the claustrophobic feel. One thing that bugs me about the PCE version is its weak interpretation of the outstanding AC soundtrack. This is a game that I feel a SuperCD version would've benefited massively, but hey what's done is done.

*I wired up my PCengine pad to my VSHG so that the 3rd button is select and the bottom row is auto fire. I'm surprised that no 3rd party stick did this used a 3 button layout. Feels like a proper arcade layout now.

[BIL]

I want your X68000 BIL.

I wish. Not my setup.

[Skykid]

That makes me feel better.

[BIL]

So much Ninja Spirit talk! Great stuff. At first I couldn't stand the game when I picked it up a few years ago but it's grown on me over the years as one of my favourite ninja side scrollers. I've pretty much got the PCE Ninja Spirit Arcade-Mode down to a semi consistent 1life clear, mostly hinging on a favourable final boss green lightening spawn. Going from PCB/Mame I found the PCE version a lot more claustrophobic due to the lower resolution but after extensive play I think the lower enemy swap rate outweighs the claustrophobic feel.

Nicely done - I knew you'd be able to ace the PCE AC mode too, but was curious how you'd find it. I've yet to make the last boss on a single life, furthest I usually get is 7.1's gas trap minefield before calling it a day and limping on to the 1CC.

It's only in stage 5 that I really notice the tighter camera. I'd been freestyling up the PCB's cliff without a care in the world, but suddenly had to develop a consistent route for PCE lest I jump straight into a gas trap. Then again, there's no time limit in the PCE version, so it largely evens out.

One thing that bugs me about the PCE version is its weak interpretation of the outstanding AC soundtrack. This is a game that I feel a SuperCD version would've benefited massively, but hey what's done is done.

Weak BGM seems endemic to Irem's HuCard ports. I don't mind too much, with them playing so well overall... the elaborate sound tests are a bit daft though! Graphical EQs, full OST tracklists, it's a nice gesture but the audio doesn't deliver.

I do like the low-fi PCE rendition of "Kane." Lacks the funereal tolling that makes me recall Silent Hill's menacing soundscape, but its guttural pulse has a morbid cool of its own. Metroid II-esque discomfort. Using the haunting Name Entry BGM for the opening menu was a good move, too - and a good save, as the PCE version doesn't actually have a Name Entry screen!

[Shoryukev]

What's wrong with the standard brick controller?

Maybe it's nostalgia, but only the original brick controller feels "right" to me when playing NES. For other games it's all about preference, but I'd argue that you will have noticeably faster reflexes with an arcade stick. Arcade sticks have a learning curve but it pays off big-time, especially when games use trigger buttons you have to use with your left hand on a controller. I could never go back to using a controller with fighting games, I am easily 2-3x faster and more accurate with a joystick.

The thing that bugs me about Batman isn't the bosses -- Mr. Cutioner is easy enough and Firebug is probably my favorite -- it's the whole of stage 5 leading up to Firebug, which basically seems to consist of a long series of annoyingly precise jumps. After four stages of being Vengeance and The Night(c)(tm)(r), the final level feels like I've been dropped into a game of Operation: Bats in the Belfry Edition, where the punishment for touching the sides is an unwinnable boss fight instead of a buzzing noise.

Apart from that, the game's challenges just aren't intricate enough to make it among my absolute favorites. My idea of fun is wall jumping between two moving platforms that are also shooting at me, whereas Batman mostly sticks to the basics. That's also one of the reasons I much prefer the third Castlevania to the first.

I played through and beat Batman yesterday, and with a fresh perspective on the game I agree on some points. There are a few spots in stage 5 that feel a little annoying. Wall-jumping between gear sections and having to kill the machine thing with the extending claw is tough!

Spoiler

I felt the two gearpit jumps were fair, but a bit tricky. By the time I beat the game (after a couple continues) I had mastered those sections and they weren't an issue at all.

Overall I really enjoy the game. I find the wall-jump mechanic fun, the batarang weapon is awesome, the music is fantastic, and the level designs and enemies are really good as well. Great fun!

[Perikles]

What's wrong with the standard brick controller?

It's impossible to comfortably hold it if you happen to not be a 6' dwarf.

I received my third-party controller the other day (it's shaped like your typical MD controller) and despite some imperfections (moving horizontally occasionally adds a diagonal movement, the "manual" autofire on the B button (as opposed to the automatic autofire without even holding a button) is faulty) I'm having a much better time now. It's understandable that Nintendo designed their controllers with kids as their target audience in mind, but they easily could've made the default NES controller as well as the dogbone controller considerably bigger.

[FinalBaton]

Maybe it's nostalgia, but only the original brick controller feels "right" to me when playing NES.

Same
I also think that the controller being small and the buttons close together works great with twitch games. But as you said, it might be nostalgia bias

[BIL]

Wall-jumping between gear sections and having to kill the machine thing with the extending claw is tough!

Spoiler

The random timing on those things is nasty. Balls to the wall intensity between the grinding gears, stabbing claws and considerable distance to fall!

I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect their initial strike can be reliably proximity-triggered. At the very start of the tower section, I always kill the lone flamethrower in advance via a couple Dirks from the lower-left. This way I have a clear path onto the staircase and up the tower, where the first Claw will dependably lash out just as I walljump in for the kill.

animated gif:

Spoiler

AFAIK, if I don't take out that flamethrower, and he stalls me, the Claw will have already been triggered and doing god knows what by the time I arrive. I try to decisively sweep the subsequent ones likewise, but it's obviously easier said than done with the much trickier surroundings. If things go to hell, my rule of thumb is to follow their receding chain back to the source with a flying fist barrage. The one time they absolutely can't strike is during their recovery frames, though they certainly can the instant after.

I notice master speedrunner dxtr stuns 'em with a flying Dirk, sometimes - tricky to execute, but that'll freeze them more than long enough to board the platform and punch them out, provided you're quick on the Start button (just one tap from Dirk to fists).

Easy candidates for GOAT ledge guarder enemies imho. Although level design is half the battle, ofc. From recent sessions, I also like the purple guys from Kage (of the Ninja)'s last stage:

Spoiler

What persistent targeted aggression! Now those chaps earned their pensions! :O Always a rush making it through the final stretch without catching a harpoon.

[Shoryukev]

The random timing on those things is nasty. Balls to the wall intensity between the grinding gears, stabbing claws and considerable distance to fall!

I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect their initial strike can be reliably proximity-triggered. At the very start of the tower section, I always kill the lone flamethrower in advance via a couple Dirks from the lower-left. This way I have a clear path onto the staircase and up the tower, where the first Claw will dependably lash out just as I walljump in for the kill.

animated gif:

Spoiler

This is a great strategy! I would have never thought of that. Their strike is predictable, but still hard to avoid (for me at least) if you're stuck wall-jumping back and forth waiting for an opening.

Spoiler

(their pattern seems to be strike, pause, strike, short-pause, strike, pause)

Taking them out before they have a chance to establish the pattern seems to be the best method. If I can't do that, I try and time my jumping back and forth so I'm flying in on them as their claw is retracting....of course sometimes I mess that up too LOL

Oh well, at least I've beaten the game even if it isn't a 1cc. I don't think my skill is quite at the level some of you are at...not from lack of trying though!