Xbox 360: Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 (November 2009)

[cools]

Why are you spending so much money on games that you're bad at?

*looks at PCBs and cabs dotted around the place*

I see what you did there.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I'd love to play something else. I currently have DFK 1.5, Akai Katana, and DOJBLEX sitting here with no machine to play them on.

If Renchi.com would be so kind as to reopen I'd order my machine, but as it is I'm pretty much stuck with futari, ESPgaluda2, and MMP/PS for the time being.

Why are you spending so much money on games that you're bad at?

Because I'm awesome.

[Drake]

I couldn't care less about you spending your money on things you're bad at and whine about. I couldn't care less about you not beating your games and wondering why you can't beat them after blindly charging in for 100 hours.

But why do you have to come here to bitch about it in ways that make you sound completely incompetent?

[DrTrouserPlank]

I couldn't care less about you spending your money on things you're bad at and whine about. I couldn't care less about you not beating your games and wondering why you can't beat them after blindly charging in for 100 hours.

OK, thanks for clearing that up.

But why do you have to come here to bitch about it in ways that make you sound completely incompetent?

I find it passes the time quite nicely between rage-quitting a session and starting another a bit later.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Can't even get past stage 3 now

The luck you must need to clear this is ridiculous. I've played it so much that I know the stages back-to-front and can play them in my head but I still can't fluke a clear.#

Seriously, lets put the BS aside now.. does anyone here who's cleared it actually think they weren't the benefactor of an enormous amount of luck when they did? How often can you do it now? 1 in 10 attempts, 1 in 50?

[xbl0x180]

Stage 4, near the end of the level when you're getting a steady stream of flying machine gunners in combination WITH the grasshoppers and the centipedes. If I focus on those flying f***ers, the grasshopper gets me. If I focus on the grasshopper/centipede, then I get killed off by the flying f***ers

Don't matter. Level 4 boss would pulverise the rest of my lives and I'd have to continue to see Level 5

[Sapz]

Can't even get past stage 3 now

The luck you must need to clear this is ridiculous. I've played it so much that I know the stages back-to-front and can play them in my head but I still can't fluke a clear.#

Seriously, lets put the BS aside now.. does anyone here who's cleared it actually think they weren't the benefactor of an enormous amount of luck when they did? How often can you do it now? 1 in 10 attempts, 1 in 50?

For pure survival play, I would say 95% of the time, minimum. Luck is not a factor in this, the game plays out pretty much exactly the same every time and gives you very large margins for error besides. The 5% failures will be due to my own performance being bad and making stupid mistakes rather than any randomness on the part of the game.

"Luck" might be an issue if there was, say, an attack which had an even chance of either giving a clear channel to move through or being an undodgeable wall - this would be completely moronic and nonsensical and thankfully is not in this game. You seem to be under the distinct impression that something that you, personally, cannot manage consistently is luck-based with no real reasoning behind it. Care to name any of these luck-based sections?

Also, how long have you been playing shmups, how often do you practice, and what is your method of practice?

[dunpeal2064]

Can't even get past stage 3 now

The luck you must need to clear this is ridiculous. I've played it so much that I know the stages back-to-front and can play them in my head but I still can't fluke a clear.#

Seriously, lets put the BS aside now.. does anyone here who's cleared it actually think they weren't the benefactor of an enormous amount of luck when they did? How often can you do it now? 1 in 10 attempts, 1 in 50?

You don't know the stages that well then. I clear stage 3 almost every play through.

Honestly, stop confusing luck with lack of skill. I'm not trying to be mean, but the "luck" is that you even got that far.

Luck isn't required, but thats what you are using to get through the game, so you beef it.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I know them absolutely inside out.

Knowing the stages (or not) doesn't have any baring on whether you squeeze through a gap or dodge into a bullet.

A fraction of a second too much pressure on the pad one way, or not enough in the other is nothing to do with knowing the stages. It's about what the margins for error are and how many times you are asked to run your luck against them. Eventually your lives counter will be empty assuming enough of these situations are present (which of course they are).

My method of practice is to sit down and grind the f***ing stages over and over until I want to throw up. I can clear them all (1-4 pretty consistently, 5 less so, although the stage I can probably clear but forget about the boss). I know how to clear them, but there's a significant enough amount of times throughout the game where you'll have to squeeze through a gap and you'll get hit, or you'll get hit by a stray bullet coming from an unusual direction. It's no one thing, it's just how the lives drip away over the course of a run.

[Erppo]

Knowing the stages (or not) doesn't have any baring on whether you squeeze through a gap or dodge into a bullet.

Yes, that's when you need actual skill.

A fraction of a second too much pressure on the pad one way, or not enough in the other is nothing to do with knowing the stages. It's about what the margins for error are and how many times you are asked to run your luck against them.

Then don't do errors. In a well designed shmup (like Futari), you will only need luck when you are not good enough to do something.

To the previous question, no I don't think it was luck when I first cleared the game. I would also be willing to bet that I can clear the game on my first try right now by ignoring all risks for score and stuff.

[brentsg]

My method of practice is to sit down and grind the f***ing stages over and over until I want to throw up.

If it stops being fun then don't do it.

[dunpeal2064]

Eh, seems like you wanna bitch and moan more than you want real advice.

I could let my gfs little brother play this game, and 1/50 times he would clear stage 3. Doesn't mean he has the skill to do so, but a small hitbox makes luck runs like what you are doing possible.

Try to just play stage 3 until you REALLY know it, because you dont. If you did, you would know how to manipulate the patterns to make them managable.

If you do the same thing each run, the enemies will do the same thing as well.

and for the last time, its NOT luck based

[xbl0x180]

My method of practice is to sit down and grind the f***ing stages over and over until I want to throw up.

If it stops being fun then don't do it.

Exactly.

Once I refer to a fun activity by verbs and adjectives such as "grind" and "work," then it has run its expiration date. He should focus on getting that J360 to play the other games he bought. Otherwise, he could also try Viva Pinata, Rez, and Katamari to chill out for a bit

[DrTrouserPlank]

Eh, seems like you wanna bitch and moan more than you want real advice.

I could let my gfs little brother play this game, and 1/50 times he would clear stage 3. Doesn't mean he has the skill to do so, but a small hitbox makes luck runs like what you are doing possible.

Try to just play stage 3 until you REALLY know it, because you dont. If you did, you would know how to manipulate the patterns to make them managable.

If you do the same thing each run, the enemies will do the same thing as well.

and for the last time, its NOT luck based

It's not that they aren't manageable is that you inevitably hit something that you don't mean to

I'm quite happy with how most patterns come at me. What I'm not happy about is how often you just die in nothing patterns; and it'll be at different points every time, absolutely anywhere. It's not the pattern it simply wears you down through attrition.

[Sapz]

That's nothing to do with the game, it's a matter of your own consistency. There is no solution for this other than to keep playing shmups; your consistency will get better over time.

[Erppo]

Yes. Every single one of your complaints could be answered simply by "get better". The only way to do that is to play more, and if you do that and put some thought into it, it will eventually happen. When you get better, you will stop "inevitably hitting something" so much.

[DrTrouserPlank]

My method of practice is to sit down and grind the f***ing stages over and over until I want to throw up.

If it stops being fun then don't do it.

Exactly.

Once I refer to a fun activity by verbs and adjectives such as "grind" and "work," then it has run its expiration date. He should focus on getting that J360 to play the other games he bought. Otherwise, he could also try Viva Pinata, Rez, and Katamari to chill out for a bit

I've got Viva-pinata. It's in one of those wall-mounted glass boxes that says "Break in case of emergency".

Getting pretty close to putting my head through it if I'm honest.

[Gus]

Fuck that 1.5 Original shit. If you don't like it then do what I did and move on to Maniac/God/Ultra.

[Weak Boson]

Seriously, lets put the BS aside now.. does anyone here who's cleared it actually think they weren't the benefactor of an enormous amount of luck when they did? How often can you do it now? 1 in 10 attempts, 1 in 50?

I certainly had a bit of luck when I first 1CC'd it. But if I were to give it another go now I think I'd need a bit less. This game seems to have a knack for producing unforced errors, more so than others, but it's just a matter of improving your consistency. I do know what you mean, though. If you're at your wits' end you can always play something else and come back to it later. Sometimes tackling a new challenge allows you to approach an old one from a different perspective.

[Elixir]

Seriously, lets put the BS aside now.. does anyone here who's cleared it actually think they weren't the benefactor of an enormous amount of luck when they did? How often can you do it now? 1 in 10 attempts, 1 in 50?

Probably 8 times out of 10 I could 1cc 1.5, hell my first attempt at the arcade I reached Larsa, because my counter didn't exceed 22,000 and I bombed against everything that was hard. But why? It's pointless "to 1cc" after doing so the first time.

[Gus]

Seriously, lets put the BS aside now.. does anyone here who's cleared it actually think they weren't the benefactor of an enormous amount of luck when they did? How often can you do it now? 1 in 10 attempts, 1 in 50?

Probably 8 times out of 10 I could 1cc 1.5, hell my first attempt at the arcade I reached Larsa, because my counter didn't exceed 22,000 and I bombed against everything that was hard. But why? It's pointless "to 1cc" after doing so the first time.

I disagree. For an game like 1.5 Original where the scoring is basically not dying and knowing a few gem milking tricks with the challenge coming from Reco Normal's horrible speed/power yes it is pointless. But for something like God or Maniac where there's actual depth it's completely different. I 1cced God in 2 weeks but my score was utter shit and I felt nothing when I won because I wasn't playing the game the way it was meant to played. It took me 3 months of studying scoring techniques and for a long time I sucked at survivng but when I finally got that 4.4bil 1cc even if I didn't beat my score by a good amount it felt great.



I guess what I'm trying to say is it's far more satisfying to play the game like intended and go for high scores than to try to get hold of every shortcut you can give the devs the finger. While DrTrouserPlank does come across as a whiny and annoying poster I think you guys are adressing it the wrong way. That being telling him that he sucks when it's more that 1.5 Original is a very annoying game that isn't fun to play for score. This is why I recommend just switching to a different mode. Yes, they're harder but they're also a lot less frustrating and much more enjoyable to score. You'll get better at dodging as well.

[Sapz]

I think that's pretty subjective, actually; I've 1cc'd 1.5 Original/Maniac and all Black Label modes (albeit with a pretty bad score in God mode), but the only modes which have really kept me coming back are 1.5 Original and Black Label Original. For 1.5 Original in particular, I love the simple principles of the scoring system and there's a lot more to it than merely not dying - if you played it conservatively I'm sure you could no miss the game and only score something in the range of 250-300m, while the scoring maxes out at 550-560m. Getting a very high score will require a lot of planning and risk taking, especially since the better your score is, the harder the game becomes due to the overall counter. In this way, the challenge keeps rising as you score higher, making it more difficult to perform the required aggressive, high scoring actions.

I like the Maniac/God system quite a lot too, but they just haven't gotten me quite as hooked. It's all a matter of preference, and there's plenty of depth to be had with Original too.

[Elixir]

Seriously, lets put the BS aside now.. does anyone here who's cleared it actually think they weren't the benefactor of an enormous amount of luck when they did? How often can you do it now? 1 in 10 attempts, 1 in 50?

Probably 8 times out of 10 I could 1cc 1.5, hell my first attempt at the arcade I reached Larsa, because my counter didn't exceed 22,000 and I bombed against everything that was hard. But why? It's pointless "to 1cc" after doing so the first time.

I disagree. For an game like 1.5 Original where the scoring is basically not dying and knowing a few gem milking tricks with the challenge coming from Reco Normal's horrible speed/power yes it is pointless. But for something like God or Maniac where there's actual depth it's completely different. I 1cced God in 2 weeks but my score was utter shit and I felt nothing when I won because I wasn't playing the game the way it was meant to played. It took me 3 months of studying scoring techniques and for a long time I sucked at survivng but when I finally got that 4.4bil 1cc even if I didn't beat my score by a good amount it felt great.



I guess what I'm trying to say is it's far more satisfying to play the game like intended and go for high scores than to try to get hold of every shortcut you can give the devs the finger. While DrTrouserPlank does come across as a whiny and annoying poster I think you guys are adressing it the wrong way. That being telling him that he sucks when it's more that 1.5 Original is a very annoying game that isn't fun to play for score. This is why I recommend just switching to a different mode. Yes, they're harder but they're also a lot less frustrating and much more enjoyable to score. You'll get better at dodging as well.

I guess I'll clarify.

Concerning 1.5 Original, it's pointless "to 1cc" and not "to play for store", after having 1cc'd the first time.

If you're recommending him play something else, why not BL Original? It's even easier than 1.5 unless you're playing for score. If you're playing for score it quickly becomes even harder than Maniac (it'll also have you restarting every 5 seconds).

[Sumez]

So the guy can reach Larsa on one credit, but not beat her, and he's BAD at the game?

You guys...

[Erppo]

So the guy can reach Larsa on one credit, but not beat her, and he's BAD at the game?

You guys...

If his goal is to clear the game then yes, of course he's currently bad at it. The whole point of practicing a game is to get less bad and it won't work if you don't see there's lots of room to improve.

[Sumez]

If he's able to even reach Larsa, I'd take he has practiced the game a lot already. Even if it is one of Cave's easier game (on Original and Maniac).
People should be more supportive, instead of going "why even pay for the game".

[Erppo]

If he's able to even reach Larsa, I'd take he has practiced the game a lot already. Even if it is one of Cave's easier game (on Original and Maniac).
People should be more supportive, instead of going "why even pay for the game".

A lot maybe, enough no. There is never enough practice and you will never reach a point where you couldn't still get better. That's the beauty of the genre and I don't understand why someone here wouldn't get it.

I think this IS being supportive. You need to accept how things are if you actually want to get better. There are no magic tricks to it, everyone can do it but it takes time and effort.

[Aliquantic]

Apparently he's got to Larsa just once and now cannot make it past stage 3, which does seem to indicate that he doesn't know the game as well as necessary (and to be fair, Futari does have some slowdown shenanigans you need to get used to). But that's beside the point really, and our "problem" with DrTrouserPlank is that he's disregarded all the advice that has been given to him in this thread and others, and he keeps insisting that it all boils down to luck and it's basically impossible to ever get consistent at the games, even when faced with evidence from multiple people that it's quite possible to reach consistency with sufficient knowledge, practice and skill. All of that takes a lot of time, obviously, and mere weeks are simply not going to cut it, even at several hours a day.

It boils down to attitude, basically, not skill, but go ahead and try to be more supportive if you can come up with something else

[Sumez]

A lot maybe, enough no. There is never enough practice and you will never reach a point where you couldn't still get better. That's the beauty of the genre and I don't understand why someone here wouldn't get it.

EDIT: I read your post wrong >_>
I completely agree with you, but I don't see why it's so bad that he can't 1cc the game if he can still spend time with it and get good enough to even reach Larsa, hopefully having fun with the game in the process? I think Futari is one of the best Cave games I've played despite never actually playing it enough to get near a 1cc.

@Aliquantic
I guess maybe I misunderstood why people have a problem with the guy, the comment about "spending money on a game that you're bad at" just really annoyed me.

[Sapz]

A lot maybe, enough no. There is never enough practice and you will never reach a point where you couldn't still get better. That's the beauty of the genre and I don't understand why someone here wouldn't get it.

Really? I think the beauty of the genre, especially in games with deep scoring systems like a lot of Cave games, is that you can almost ALWAYS get better, no matter how good you are.

That's pretty much exactly what he just said.